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Old 09-29-17, 03:38 PM   #26
mangofly
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Thanks. Pinigis certainly makes a case over the Urbano. It's not bad-sounding on paper but the mudguards and rack together do bring the price up considerably.

And I'm afraid the cassette vs freewheel question is about the extent of my technical knowledge. What's wrong with nutted axles?
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Old 09-29-17, 03:42 PM   #27
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FYI the Urbano has a claimed weight of 24lbs, and it uses wide tires. I am certain that is not possible with their specs. Additionally, if they indeed used non-QR wheels their return rate would be through the roof.

Thanks,
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Why would their return rate be through the roof for having solid axles? Not that they are solid axles. I have a jump bike with hardened chromoly rear axle and many BMX bikes use similar for additional strength with bikes dropping from impressive heights. The quick release system is much weaker generally due to the hollow axle even though often hardened. With a cassette based drivetrain its of far less importance but if you have a freewheel based rear wheel one of the best ways to strengthen it is remove the unhardened basic carbon steel solid axle or quick release axle and replace with a hardened chromoly axle. This can turn a problematic cheap bike into a much more reliable strong bike, not only making the bike stronger but often improving gear change accuracy due to the axle remaining perfectly straight through years of use despite pavement drops etc.

Again though clearly it isn't solid axles on the bike anyway by examination of the images.
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Old 09-29-17, 04:37 PM   #28
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I checked the images and I don't think it's clear.

Everyone knows a bike with axle nuts is low end ( all the marketing in the world will not change this ).

Additionally there is a weight problem. Rigid aluminum bikes with low end components are all in the same weight range. The easiest way to lighten the bike, is to thin out the tires ( 1.25" or so ) however this makes the ride rough. These guys claim to put on big tires and drop weight....not possible.

One mistake on a bike is ok, customers are forgiving. However there are at least two issues on this one. My experience is that doesn't work out very well.

Thanks
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Old 09-29-17, 05:33 PM   #29
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Yan and I agree on something. This may be a sign of the apocalypse! 😁
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Old 09-29-17, 06:13 PM   #30
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There is nothing inherently wrong with nutted axles; it's all about perception.

Spend some time with the fixed gear crowd, and a quick-release rear wheel is almost unheard of. Why? Fixed gear setups expose the rear wheel to quite a bit of torque, and that torque can lead to the axle slipping in the dropouts, typically pulling the axle farther ahead on the drive side as torque is applied.

Nutted axles ensure less slippage. You can tighten a nutted axle with a wrench and apply greater force than you can hand-close a quick-release lever. This isn't an issue for the front wheel of a fixie, as it's not a drive wheel and therefore subject to much less torque.

So if there is a high return rate with nutted wheels, unless the implication is that they'll be returned because they're not "quality" wheels, I don't get it. Perhaps Yan will enlighten us.
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Old 09-29-17, 07:32 PM   #31
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We chose to use the MicroShift gear selector instead of the Shimano because of its smooth action and precision. Since we are providing the warranty, I feel much better about the MicroShift component. We stick with Shimano selectors on our lower-cost models.
Microshift better than Shimano triggers? Ha! That's marketing BS. The former is neither smoother nor more precise than the latter, that's for sure. Microshift is decidedly low-end.
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Old 09-29-17, 08:13 PM   #32
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Microshift better than Shimano triggers? Ha! That's marketing BS. The former is neither smoother nor more precise than the latter, that's for sure. Microshift is decidedly low-end.
We can disagree. I prefer the MicroShift selector, you like the Shimano.
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Old 09-29-17, 08:35 PM   #33
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I've had another look and they are definitely quick releases. You can see the skewer/pin in the middle of the end cap. It's not easy though as there are no pictures of the other side of the bike showing the levers.

I just googled 7005 vs 6061 and the very first intro text that came up at the top stated 6061 is superior. Most of the budget dual suspension bikes you see in Walmart etc if not steel they are 7005 aluminium. I personally have no problem with 7005 aluminium but 6061 is generally regarded as superior.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=7005+vs+6061

Btwin tend to put microshift on their entry level bikes and SRAM and Shimano on higher end models. I have a microshift gear shifter on one of my bikes, its not bad but not quite as good as a similar Shimano trigger gear shifter but certainly better than their revoshift rubbish which I have a tendency to occasionally change gear by mistake. Although saying that I think the one I have most problems with is a SRAM rotary gear shifter which has an even lighter resistance action. The trouble is I have big hands so they end up drifting into the gear change side even when I'm just trying to grip the handlebars. I hate that system and much prefer the simple Shimano SIS rotary dial switches that came before them as their entry level shifter design. They are ok if you have small hands.

6061 is an alloy that consists of aluminum, magnesium and silicone and is considered to be superior to 7005, made of aluminum and zinc, although the latter appears to be more resistant. 7005 aluminum has a resistance to failure of 51,000 psi, compared to the 45,000 psi recorded for 6061 aluminum while also being more resistant to squeeze.

The key difference -- in terms of bikes -- between 6061 and 7005, however, is that it is easier to weld 6000-series aluminum, so it was the first aluminum widely used in bikes and the alloy most likely to turn up at the lower end.
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Old 09-29-17, 09:46 PM   #34
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We can disagree. I prefer the MicroShift selector, you like the Shimano.
Show me a top-end, or even a upper mid-rane bike with Microshift. It's not a question of likes and tastes, Paul. There's Shimano, there's SRAM, there'even Campagnolo, but Microshift? Come on. I xan understand that you need to cut corners herecand there to offer low prices, But it's quite another to hype up low-end components. You are a merchant with an agenda to sell bikes. I have no commercial or financial interest behind my judgement.
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Old 09-30-17, 05:35 AM   #35
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6061 is an alloy that consists of aluminum, magnesium and silicone and is considered to be superior to 7005, made of aluminum and zinc, although the latter appears to be more resistant. 7005 aluminum has a resistance to failure of 51,000 psi, compared to the 45,000 psi recorded for 6061 aluminum while also being more resistant to squeeze.

The key difference -- in terms of bikes -- between 6061 and 7005, however, is that it is easier to weld 6000-series aluminum, so it was the first aluminum widely used in bikes and the alloy most likely to turn up at the lower end.
Easier to weld effectively means better welds I guess on average. Maybe that is the main benefit of 6061 but my point is not 6061 is better than 7005 my point is I wouldn't automatically consider 6061 inferior. The fact the Urbano is a lighter bike with a higher weight limit and a lifetime warranty on the frame is perhaps more important information.
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Old 09-30-17, 06:02 AM   #36
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Show me a top-end, or even a upper mid-rane bike with Microshift. It's not a question of likes and tastes, Paul. There's Shimano, there's SRAM, there'even Campagnolo, but Microshift? Come on. I xan understand that you need to cut corners herecand there to offer low prices, But it's quite another to hype up low-end components. You are a merchant with an agenda to sell bikes. I have no commercial or financial interest behind my judgement.
This isn't a matter of cutting costs since the MicroShift selectors cost twice as much as the Shimano Revoshift. It's a matter of function and performance.
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Old 09-30-17, 07:16 AM   #37
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You are a merchant with an agenda to sell bikes. I have no commercial or financial interest behind my judgement.
... so automaticly he is "wrong" and you are "right"???
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Old 09-30-17, 09:52 AM   #38
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I was a little concerned about the Microshift triggers, but found them to work well. Better than i had expected. Bike Radar gave the 8-speed 3.5 out of 5 stars and said "Cheap and cheerful, but works surprisingly well if you can get on with the shifter arrangement".

Microshift 8-speed mountain bike transmission review - BikeRadar USA
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Old 09-30-17, 10:35 AM   #39
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This isn't a matter of cutting costs since the MicroShift selectors cost twice as much as the Shimano Revoshift. It's a matter of function and performance.
For a low cost alternative it seems fine to me.

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I was a little concerned about the Microshift triggers, but found them to work well. Better than i had expected. Bike Radar gave the 8-speed 3.5 out of 5 stars and said "Cheap and cheerful, but works surprisingly well if you can get on with the shifter arrangement".

Microshift 8-speed mountain bike transmission review - BikeRadar USA
It does the job, and inexpensively! Thanks for the link.
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Old 09-30-17, 11:08 AM   #40
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There is nothing inherently wrong with nutted axles; it's all about perception.

Spend some time with the fixed gear crowd, and a quick-release rear wheel is almost unheard of. Why? Fixed gear setups expose the rear wheel to quite a bit of torque, and that torque can lead to the axle slipping in the dropouts, typically pulling the axle farther ahead on the drive side as torque is applied.

Nutted axles ensure less slippage. You can tighten a nutted axle with a wrench and apply greater force than you can hand-close a quick-release lever. This isn't an issue for the front wheel of a fixie, as it's not a drive wheel and therefore subject to much less torque.

So if there is a high return rate with nutted wheels, unless the implication is that they'll be returned because they're not "quality" wheels, I don't get it. Perhaps Yan will enlighten us.
Let me explain

Nutted axles are better in many applications ( fixies, off-roading, etc ). However this company wants to portray their folding bike as mid range at an entry level price. If these are low end threaded axles they are in big trouble...on top of low end wheels they have a claimed weight problem. I can see the axle nuts being a smaller problem if they use quality axles, but it is still a problem. Don't forget their claimed weight is way off, so all other problems will be compounded. Additionally they focus heavily on facebook ads. Selling via facebook ads is easy, I did it. However, I stopped due to a crazy high return rate. I had less than 5 bikes returned in all of 2016. I had almost twice as many returns in one month through facebook ads this year.

I called them yesterday to ask about the axle nuts. A woman picked up the phone and said the tech guy is not around and call back later. So I'll try calling Monday.

I find it awkward that people here are stating this company has a lifetime frame warranty. This is a brand new company, run by two people with facebook & google ads. I think people should wait until they establish themselves in the market before putting a value on something that may not exist

Thanks,
Yan
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Old 09-30-17, 11:13 AM   #41
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I think both Abu and Pingis are correct on the drive train question.

Shimano TZ 7sp freewheel and Microshift 8sp cassette drivetrains have similar OEM cost. I prefer the Microshift for low end applications. However Shimano has established quality drivetrains.

Thanks,
Yan
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Old 09-30-17, 04:32 PM   #42
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I think both Abu and Pingis are correct on the drive train question.

Shimano TZ 7sp freewheel and Microshift 8sp cassette drivetrains have similar OEM cost. I prefer the Microshift for low end applications. However Shimano has established quality drivetrains.

Thanks,
Yan
Yeap, Microshift is low end. Paul's earlier comparo to low end Shimano is specious for my assertion was that Shimano triggers (e.g. Deore, SLX, XT, XTR) is on a whole different league in performance than Microshift. In other words Microshift is not as exalted as he makes out to be. i get it that he needs to keep costs down. but he need not insult our intelligence in the process. IMO the quality mid-range starts at Shimano Tiagra for road, and Deore for mountain.

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Old 09-30-17, 04:36 PM   #43
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... so automaticly he is "wrong" and you are "right"???
No, that's your silly assertion, not mine. Pinigis is wrong because he is wrong. Microshift is low end. You've had a personal ax to grind against me for a while now, and this latest post of yours is a transparent continuation of that trend. You were never interested in the facts here. Pure personal ax grinding.

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Old 09-30-17, 04:48 PM   #44
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No, that's your silly assertion, not mine. Pinigis is wrong because he is wrong. Microshift is low end. You've had a personal ax to grind against me for a while now, and this latest post of yours is a transparent continuation of that trend. You were never interested in the facts here. Pure personal ax grinding.
Happy to see you are still your old self...
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Old 09-30-17, 05:36 PM   #45
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Yeap, Microshift is low end. Paul's earlier comparo to low end Shimano is specious for my assertion was that Shimano triggers (e.g. Deore, SLX, XT, XTR) is on a whole different league in performance than Microshift. In other words Microshift is not as exalted as he makes out to be. i get it that he needs to keep costs down. but he need not insult our intelligence in the process. IMO the quality mid-range starts at Shimano Tiagra for road, and Deore for mountain.

Abu, have you ever used a MicroShift selector?
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Old 10-02-17, 04:52 AM   #46
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I think both Abu and Pingis are correct on the drive train question.

Shimano TZ 7sp freewheel and Microshift 8sp cassette drivetrains have similar OEM cost. I prefer the Microshift for low end applications. However Shimano has established quality drivetrains.

Thanks,
Yan
How similar. You get Shimano 7 speed freewheels on bikes seen as low as $59 in Walmart but you'd never get a Microshift 8 speed cassette drivetrain on a bike for anything near that price. Although understand part of the cost is the freehub wheel on a cassette based bike where as freewheels just screw onto a basic hub. If the difference in price is so low why use freewheels when the freehub and cassette based drivetrain is so much better. Here in the UK with have Dahons and Terns sold at close to 600 with freewheels. I guess a basic mountain bike style bike in the UK with a 7 speed Shimano freewheel could be as low as 79 but the first microshift cassette based drivetrain I know of is on a 250 bike. The biggest quality concern with a cassette based drivetrain is the freehub itself which won't be microshift as I don't think they make them. This is more critical as if it fails it basically takes the wheel with it which would normally need replacing too.

The microshift cassette may wear quicker, the derailleur not shift as fast or as well as higher end derailleurs and need more maintenance plus the gear shifter may not be quite as nice to use but the critical part in the drivetrain itself is the freehub. The ratcheting mechanism has more space for stronger pawls and axle is better supported by wide bearings placement. It's hard for a freehub not to be much better than a freewheel.

Shimano make components to every price level and their entry level stuff I don't think you could apply 'established quality drivetrains' to those. They are built to a low price to compete with other low price components. If they didn't make them as cheaply as possible they would be priced out of the entry level bike market.
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Old 10-02-17, 05:21 AM   #47
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Let me explain

Nutted axles are better in many applications ( fixies, off-roading, etc ). However this company wants to portray their folding bike as mid range at an entry level price. If these are low end threaded axles they are in big trouble...on top of low end wheels they have a claimed weight problem. I can see the axle nuts being a smaller problem if they use quality axles, but it is still a problem. Don't forget their claimed weight is way off, so all other problems will be compounded. Additionally they focus heavily on facebook ads. Selling via facebook ads is easy, I did it. However, I stopped due to a crazy high return rate. I had less than 5 bikes returned in all of 2016. I had almost twice as many returns in one month through facebook ads this year.

I called them yesterday to ask about the axle nuts. A woman picked up the phone and said the tech guy is not around and call back later. So I'll try calling Monday.

I find it awkward that people here are stating this company has a lifetime frame warranty. This is a brand new company, run by two people with facebook & google ads. I think people should wait until they establish themselves in the market before putting a value on something that may not exist

Thanks,
Yan
Why is the claimed weight way off? Where does that information come from?

Why do they have low end wheels, they appear to have strong double walled rims which is better than the single wall rims of many competitors even those costing much more.

I don't know the history of the company and how long they have been established but clearly a lifetime warranty is better than a single year warranty. This shouldn't be downplayed its an important selling point and shows faith in the frame. I see no reason why this wouldn't be honoured. In the UK the credit card company is jointly liable so if you purchase something with a long frame warranty and the company goes out of business the credit card company is still liable. However I don't know how US law deals with credit card purchases. Wasn't this the aggressive stance Tern took about Downtube trying to criticise the financial strength of Downtube. Seems unfair to use the same tactic against a competitor yourself. Lots of bike companies have long frame warranties, its not exactly unheard of.

This nutted axle thing is getting a bit ridiculous. It's clear the Urbano doesn't have nutted axles its just a mistake on their spec page and we have seen in the past many bike brands who have incorrect information on their site including Downtube. If you look at the manual you can clearly see only the Campo model comes with a included spanner for removing wheels etc. I see little point in continuing with this obvious false claim. At least its a genuine mistake they incorrectly are stating a lower quality part than actually fitted to the bike unlike many so called errors on bike sites where they make false claims of superior components than fitted in order to deceive their customers. Clearly there is no attempt at deception here.

https://www.euromini.bike/instruction-manual

I'm not pushing the Urbano, I'm based in the UK so couldn't buy any of these bikes be it Euromini, Downtube or Origami because by the time you factor in huge shipping costs and risk of import duty there are much more competitive bikes sold in the UK or mainland Europe already. I'm totally unbiased with no vested interest, purely making the point that for its specification it is very good value and worth considering. Reviews are great, spec is great, price is pretty low. Worth putting in the mix of options.

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Old 10-02-17, 07:22 AM   #48
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I think both Abu and Pingis are correct on the drive train question.

Shimano TZ 7sp freewheel and Microshift 8sp cassette drivetrains have similar OEM cost. I prefer the Microshift for low end applications. However Shimano has established quality drivetrains.

Thanks,
Yan
Just so this is clear, the Crane 8 uses a Shimano cassette, Shimano Acera derailleur, and a MicroShift gear selector.
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Old 10-02-17, 01:03 PM   #49
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Hello All!
I do apologize for "jumping" into the fray a bit late in the race. I would like to begin by introducing myself and the company I work for. My name is Tony and I work for EuroMini Bikes. Yep, another manufacturer in the mix.
I personally have over 24 years of experience in the cycling industry in one way, shape or form; from retail to mechanical to building bikes. What this means is that I am NOT a bike expert, but rather a person that has a lot of opinions about bikes. As you can read from most answers from this post, there are a lot of opinions. That is ok, we post questions on forums in the hopes of being able to use others' experiences so we can make better informed decisions ourselves.
EuroMini bikes will be celebrating it's 1 year anniversary this coming November. So yes, EuroMini Bikes are new to the scene. But, the team behind EuroMini is not. Like I mentioned, I have over 24 years of industry experience. There is another person on our team that has been involved with folding bikes specifically, since the 80's and was instrumental in developing many of the patents and design features used in folding bikes today. I am sure that the folks behind Origami and Downtube can attribute to the fact that a bike company and good quality bikes do not come overnight. They are a product of years of experience, design and passion; and we are passionate about bikes.
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Old 10-02-17, 01:22 PM   #50
linberl
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Bikes: 2003 Bike Friday (restored & sold: 1997 Trek 720, 1993 Trek 520)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroMini View Post
Hello All!
I do apologize for "jumping" into the fray a bit late in the race. I would like to begin by introducing myself and the company I work for. My name is Tony and I work for EuroMini Bikes. Yep, another manufacturer in the mix.
I personally have over 24 years of experience in the cycling industry in one way, shape or form; from retail to mechanical to building bikes. What this means is that I am NOT a bike expert, but rather a person that has a lot of opinions about bikes. As you can read from most answers from this post, there are a lot of opinions. That is ok, we post questions on forums in the hopes of being able to use others' experiences so we can make better informed decisions ourselves.
EuroMini bikes will be celebrating it's 1 year anniversary this coming November. So yes, EuroMini Bikes are new to the scene. But, the team behind EuroMini is not. Like I mentioned, I have over 24 years of industry experience. There is another person on our team that has been involved with folding bikes specifically, since the 80's and was instrumental in developing many of the patents and design features used in folding bikes today. I am sure that the folks behind Origami and Downtube can attribute to the fact that a bike company and good quality bikes do not come overnight. They are a product of years of experience, design and passion; and we are passionate about bikes.
So can you confirm whether the axles are QR or not? Big controversy, lol.
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