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Old 10-02-17, 04:49 PM   #51
EuroMini
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
The Urbano vs. Crane 8:

Urbano has nutted axles, the Crane 8 has quick releases front and rear
Urbano is made of 6061 aluminum, Crane 8 is 7005 aluminum
Urbano has a 48T generic chainring, the Crane 8 has a 52T Neco chainring
Urbano uses a Shimano Ultus derailleur, Crane 8 uses a Shimano Acera derailleur
Urbano uses a Shimano RevoShift, Crane 8 uses a MicroShift thumb shifter

The Crane 8 comes standard with steel fenders and an aluminum rack for $429. You can add plastic fenders and a steel rack to the Urbano and the price rises to $414.97. There is shipping of $29 on the Crane 8, but overall it offers a lot more for the money.
Hey Pinigis
Thank you for the comparison chart it's a helpful way to compare the differences between our bikes.
I'd like to add a bike more:

Chain: Urbano: KMC Z72 rust resistant chain -Crane 8: KMC Z50
Headset: Urbano: Threadless headset -Crane 8: Threaded
Fork: Urbano: Aluminum Fork/Steel Steerer -Crane 8: All Steel
Seatpost length: Urbano: 580mm -Crane 8: 500mm
Chainring guard: Urbano:Yes -Crane 8: No

As we both pointed out, both our bikes feature design differences. These differences can make the bike excel in one area and good in others. Case in point:
The Crane 8 has fenders and the bike weighs 27.2lbs. The Urbano does not have fenders and weighs 24.75 lbs. (I pulled one out of the box and weighed it this morning).
Some customers value the fenders more than the increased weight, and that is great. Others are looking for lightweight more than the benefits of fenders, and that is just fine too.
It looks like we both make great bikes with the goal being: Get people out on bikes who want to ride (at least that's how we feel at EuroMini).

Happy riding
Tony
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Old 10-02-17, 05:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by downtube View Post
Does the Urbano really use nutted axles? If so that is a serious problem.

Thanks,
Yan
Hey Yan
Thank you for your opinion. I am surprised at your statement regarding nutted axles, " If so that is a serious problem."
What is it in your personal experience that makes nutted axles such a serious problem?
To be frank, like with most decisions manufactures make about designing and equipping their bikes, it comes down to what we feel our customers would like to see most in their bikes.
Nutted wheels have a bad wrap, usually promoted by folks that may or may not have an interest in the success or failure of the feature or design.
Here it is in a nutshell and it is up to you to decide what you feel you would benefit from the most:
Nutted wheels are more secure; less likely to fail, either by the lever being snagged or the skewer snapping.
Nutted wheels don't get stolen as frequently as q/r wheels.
Quick release wheels make removal of the wheels "quick" and easy. No tools needed. This comes in handy for flat changes and locking up the bike when you have the time and ability to lock the wheels and frame to a rack.
The cycling industry is constantly evolving. Today's innovation is tomorrow's joke (Think Biopace).
As the industry is evolving, today's traditional quick release is on the way out, making way for thru-axle hubs that, get ready for this...combine the features of quick release AND nutted axles.

Happy riding
Tony
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Old 10-02-17, 05:46 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
I don't see any quick releases on their photos.
7005 series aluminum is lighter and stronger than 6061. Our listed weight includes the rack and fenders, the Urbano does not. I am willing to bet that the Crane 8 is lighter when compared comparably equipped.
The cranks, hub, and guard on the Crane 8 are aluminum, only the outer ring of teeth is steel for greater durability.
We chose to use the MicroShift gear selector instead of the Shimano because of its smooth action and precision. Since we are providing the warranty, I feel much better about the MicroShift component. We stick with Shimano selectors on our lower-cost models.
Hello Pinigis
Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. You said, "I am willing to bet that the Crane 8 is lighter when compared comparably equipped." If you are referring to the weight of the Crane 8 without fenders, it's listed as 25.5lbs. (from your website).
The Urbano is listed online as 24lbs. I put my Urbano on the scale this morning and it came in at 24.75lbs. I'd attribute the discrepancy to the Gopro mount and camera I have on the bike.


Happy Riding
Tony
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Old 10-02-17, 05:53 PM   #54
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FYI the Urbano has a claimed weight of 24lbs, and it uses wide tires. I am certain that is not possible with their specs. Additionally, if they indeed used non-QR wheels their return rate would be through the roof.

Thanks,
Yan
Hi Yan
Thank you for your concern about our bikes. Regarding the weight of the Urbano, you sound like a person that "needs to see it to believe it." I'd be happy to email you a picture of the Urbano, on a scale, reading 24.75lbs. I would invite you to take a look at the reviews on our website and on Amazon as well. We don't filter, edit or otherwise tamper with what others have to say about our bikes. Generally, the folks that have bought our bikes are pretty happy. I am not sure about the correlation between nutted axles, cassettes and return rates, but our bikes seem to be doing well and reading the reviews, people seem pretty satisfied.

Happy riding
Tony
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Old 10-02-17, 07:36 PM   #55
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Hi Yan
Thank you for your concern about our bikes. Regarding the weight of the Urbano, you sound like a person that "needs to see it to believe it." I'd be happy to email you a picture of the Urbano, on a scale, reading 24.75lbs. I would invite you to take a look at the reviews on our website and on Amazon as well. We don't filter, edit or otherwise tamper with what others have to say about our bikes. Generally, the folks that have bought our bikes are pretty happy. I am not sure about the correlation between nutted axles, cassettes and return rates, but our bikes seem to be doing well and reading the reviews, people seem pretty satisfied.

Happy riding
Tony
What does the Urbano weigh with the rack and fenders installed?
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Old 10-02-17, 08:18 PM   #56
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Ive been a lurker here, seeking greater insight into the current world of bicycles, as I've been a beach cruiser owner/builder until this past May. I came across this thread today, and recognized some of the participant/manufacturers posting to it.

I feel compelled to share my experience, and as a first post I apologize and I dont want to sound like a shill....Im not but a real world experience from a real consumer may help others.
(BTW- NEXT folder will most likely be a Downtube 8H, Yan.)

Desiring 2 new bicycles to accompany us camping, we decided on 2 folders. We never had folding bikes before.

Internet searches being what they are, what often comes up, and what doesn't can often seem like a crap shoot to the layperson.

So, the internet presented us with Schwinn folders, Dahons, and some others I still havent heard of, and the EuroMini.

So, we purchased 2 Urbanos this past May, and have been enjoying them immensely ever since (hence my forum name).

Although we are relatively un-schooled at modern bike offerings (having grown up in the Schwinn Sting-Ray era and restoring /riding old Schwinn cruisers into later life) our initial first impression when we received these was quite positive.

5 months and a few hundred miles into ownership later, that impression hasnt changed. These Urbanos are quite a good value, super fun to ride, and lightweight (as advertised). In short, we've not regretted them for a moment.

In fact today, we folded them, drove them to Joshua Tree National Park and rode them for hours. What a great day they helped provide us!

That isn't to say they've been perfect....they haven't. Precisely; we battled a bad rear wheel bearing on one a couple months in, and a sticky chain link right out of the box on one.

Tony (in particular) and others from EuroMini have been super responsive and provided resolutions to both issues promptly, cheerfully, professionally. THAT support after the sale in and of itself is (to me) as big a portion of a positive consumer experience as any product claiming to be better in all respects than another witihn the same price range.

I dont actually believe any product, in any price segment can be without some design compromises, cost considerations, or inherent defects.

With that in mind, at the 3-4 hundred dollar range, I cant imagine the EuroMini Urbano is intrinsically a lesser choice then some of the others being discussed within this thread. In other words, if "this" is imperfect on bike A, it's highly likely that "that" is on bike B etc.

So, Id like to thank EuroMini for providing my wife and I with our first foray into folding bikes, it's been fun, an eye-opener and we really enjoy them.

But more importantly the support provided by EuroMini has been as good as it can be, and with that said I'm certain the company's upcoming birthday won't be it's last as they continue to improve/evolve their products, and remain true to the type of customer service Ive received from them.

Im certain all of you, Origami, Downtube, etc. are all great choices even at the low end of the price spectrum, and Im certain none of your offerings aren't without their little hiccups either.

Thanks to our EuroMinis in fact, we will be purchasing 3 or 4 folders as holiday gifts this year. And for the intended recipients, other makes are also being considered despite our happiness with our EuroMinis.

So as an industry, other, competing manufacturers can sometimes "thank" their counterparts for a general increase in product demand. Can you say "gateway drug"? LOL. THIS happy EuroMini owner may be tomorrow's Downtube owner....today's happy Downtube owner may be tomorrow's Brompton rider. Oi!

Sorry for this lengthy post....just felt compelled to share and likely would do the same for any bike I had a real, positive experience with.

Last edited by FolderBeholder; 10-02-17 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 10-03-17, 12:24 AM   #57
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Abu, have you ever used a MicroShift selector?
Yes, I have. Microshift gear 'shifters' came stock on my Bannard Sunny. They were clunky, not particularly accurate, and did not hold the gear when lots of torque was applied at the wheel (e.g. when pedaling out of the saddle uphill). They were among the first things to go, in favor of Shimano triggers shifters. Granted the Tiagra 9-speed jobs that replaced them are not the most glorious Shimano offering either, but they are better than the Microshifts.
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Old 10-03-17, 01:56 AM   #58
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Hey Yan
Thank you for your opinion. I am surprised at your statement regarding nutted axles, " If so that is a serious problem."
What is it in your personal experience that makes nutted axles such a serious problem?
To be frank, like with most decisions manufactures make about designing and equipping their bikes, it comes down to what we feel our customers would like to see most in their bikes.
Nutted wheels have a bad wrap, usually promoted by folks that may or may not have an interest in the success or failure of the feature or design.
Here it is in a nutshell and it is up to you to decide what you feel you would benefit from the most:
Nutted wheels are more secure; less likely to fail, either by the lever being snagged or the skewer snapping.
Nutted wheels don't get stolen as frequently as q/r wheels.
Quick release wheels make removal of the wheels "quick" and easy. No tools needed. This comes in handy for flat changes and locking up the bike when you have the time and ability to lock the wheels and frame to a rack.
The cycling industry is constantly evolving. Today's innovation is tomorrow's joke (Think Biopace).
As the industry is evolving, today's traditional quick release is on the way out, making way for thru-axle hubs that, get ready for this...combine the features of quick release AND nutted axles.

Happy riding
Tony
You've written that but still haven't really answered the question

I was pretty sure you had quick releases on the wheels of the Urbano because a) on the images it looks like the end cap of the quick releases and not nuts but is unclear. The manual states no spanner is included with Urbano. Both indicating quick releases normally. Did the bike ever have quick releases and you moved away from them to nutted axles? Anyway a simple statement which type they are for current stock would I'm sure be helpful. I have no problem with solid axles myself mainly for the security benefits. I've actually replaced quick releases with solid hardened chromoly axles on bikes I've had with freewheels due to my weight. It's massively improved the reliability and strength of the rear wheel. However its clearly perceived as lower quality by many and isn't normally found in combination with a cassette based drivetrain.

I did manage to find this image which has a blowup of the derailleur area and now I'm less convinced its a quick release because while its not a nut you can't see the quick release pin/skewer in the middle. Just seems to be a plastic cap for some reason but then if it is a normal nut why would the manual state only the Campo has an included spanner. I've never come across a bike with nutted axle wheels that didn't include a spanner. One of the important safety tips you have for a bike is make sure the wheels are secure before riding whether quick release or nutted and always been supplied with a basic spanner for that reason if nutted. Why even bother with a plastic cap even if just for packaging. Normally packaging plastic caps on axles are oversized.


Last edited by Bonzo Banana; 10-03-17 at 09:08 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-04-17, 02:04 AM   #59
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Both probably fine

I think we’ve lost the op in the last two days... the question was should he get the citizen or origami.. The answer is yes. I have a couple Crane8’s and they do fine for us. We’ve had a couple small issues come up, but Origami(Paul) has taken care of us. I wanted a Gazelle, but it didn’t fit in the case... that would be my pick between the two, as long as you ride it. ✌️
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Old 10-04-17, 02:28 AM   #60
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I think we’ve lost the op in the last two days... the question was should he get the citizen or origami.. The answer is yes. I have a couple Crane8’s and they do fine for us. We’ve had a couple small issues come up, but Origami(Paul) has taken care of us. I wanted a Gazelle, but it didn’t fit in the case... that would be my pick between the two, as long as you ride it. ✌️
Yeah there hasn't been much focus on the Citizen Seoul. Seems a fairly basic bike for its price and overall poor value compared to many of the other bikes discussed. It has low end components, not much in the way of included accessories and is priced in the same ballpark area as some of the much better bikes. I personally wouldn't consider it at all at $329. I'd gauge it a bike worth sub $249 and I've seen better bikes go sub $200 on occasion.

Still think the Euromini Urbano is worth considering even with solid axles, infact maybe because of it, if you live in a area prone to bike theft. Whatever, the Seoul isn't good value to me.
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Old 10-04-17, 05:32 AM   #61
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Today's innovation is tomorrow's joke (Think Biopace).
As the industry is evolving, today's traditional quick release is on the way out, making way for thru-axle hubs that, get ready for this...combine the features of quick release AND nutted axles.

Funny how this thread went in so many directions. Personally I am fine with either Q/R or nutted. I've broken down my nutted folding plenty of times and the wrench takes up little space and maybe adds what...10 seconds vs. Q/R?

Now Biopace...I absolutely love my Biopace Cannondale. Bought it when I was 16 and the slight oblong just melded with my long leg cadence. So echoing the theme here, what one prefers over something else does not make that something else a bad thing.
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Old 10-04-17, 09:08 AM   #62
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I think we’ve lost the op in the last two days... the question was should he get the citizen or origami.. The answer is yes. I have a couple Crane8’s and they do fine for us. We’ve had a couple small issues come up, but Origami(Paul) has taken care of us. I wanted a Gazelle, but it didn’t fit in the case... that would be my pick between the two, as long as you ride it. ✌️
Thanks, I've been lurking and enjoying the discussion. Also appreciate EuroMini for coming in and responding.

I've pretty much also decided that the Citizen isn't worth it.
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Old 10-04-17, 03:11 PM   #63
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Hey Pinigis
Thank you for the comparison chart it's a helpful way to compare the differences between our bikes.
I'd like to add a bike more:

Chain: Urbano: KMC Z72 rust resistant chain -Crane 8: KMC Z50
Headset: Urbano: Threadless headset -Crane 8: Threaded
Fork: Urbano: Aluminum Fork/Steel Steerer -Crane 8: All Steel
Seatpost length: Urbano: 580mm -Crane 8: 500mm
Chainring guard: Urbano:Yes -Crane 8: No

As we both pointed out, both our bikes feature design differences. These differences can make the bike excel in one area and good in others. Case in point:
The Crane 8 has fenders and the bike weighs 27.2lbs. The Urbano does not have fenders and weighs 24.75 lbs. (I pulled one out of the box and weighed it this morning).
Some customers value the fenders more than the increased weight, and that is great. Others are looking for lightweight more than the benefits of fenders, and that is just fine too.
It looks like we both make great bikes with the goal being: Get people out on bikes who want to ride (at least that's how we feel at EuroMini).

Happy riding
Tony
The Crane 8 come with a machined aluminum guard.
The Crane 8 uses a threaded headset because it was designed with travelers in mind. It is much easier to pack a bike when you can remove the handlebar stem without having the fork fall out.

Anyway, welcome the the forum!
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Old 10-04-17, 04:51 PM   #64
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The Crane 8 come with a machined aluminum guard.
The Crane 8 uses a threaded headset because it was designed with travelers in mind. It is much easier to pack a bike when you can remove the handlebar stem without having the fork fall out.

Anyway, welcome the the forum!
I never looked at it that way,...and it makes sense to me.
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Old 10-05-17, 06:37 AM   #65
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Smart with the quill over ahead. I always liked quill better than ahead on all sorts of bikes. Much more flexible and easyer to modify.
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Old 10-05-17, 10:26 AM   #66
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My solution for my 26" TernJoeP24 is a quick release. The 2 wonderful close up pics belong to @Guiyoforward
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Old 10-05-17, 07:50 PM   #67
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I see no reason not to put a threaded headset on a folding bike but you only have watch a few of the videos on youtube where they take $80 walmart mountain bikes off road to see how the admittedly low end threaded headset has the handlebars facing in a different direction to the front wheel after a few minor bumps. I personally wouldn't see this as a deciding factor on a folding bike though and also unsure how many people need to dis-assemble like that. A threaded headset is generally perceived as a lower quality component in the same way as nutted axles. Normally aren't the bearings in a threadless system upgraded and stronger? Just making the point there may be some fringe advantages to threaded but generally threadless is perceived as better.

What is perceived and what actually is better are not always the same of course.

When spotting BSO mountain bikes a threaded headset and a freewheel are 2 of the main criteria for determining a BSO in addition to the useless suspension. However all 4 of those components may be perfectly usable for a road or folding bike.
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Old 10-07-17, 01:09 AM   #68
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Microshift better than Shimano triggers? Ha! That's marketing BS. The former is neither smoother nor more precise than the latter, that's for sure. Microshift is decidedly low-end.
The Microshift will not be as smooth as higher-end Shimano triggers, but we're comparing these to a bike spec'd with low-end Acera. I've used both, the Microshift is indeed better.
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Old 10-07-17, 01:56 PM   #69
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The Microshift will not be as smooth as higher-end Shimano triggers, but we're comparing these to a bike spec'd with low-end Acera. I've used both, the Microshift is indeed better.
I've got 2 bikes with microshift shifters, one a cheap rigid mountain bike with what I thought were SRAM but in fact are microshift rotary shifters and that is very poor but was on a bike that only cost £65 from new in about 2010 called a pagan arrow. The other bike I have with one on is a bicycles4u paris folding bike. It is a trigger shifter and seems a little poor in action but the bike is well worn. However I have bikes with Acera shifters also bought secondhand that seem to have lasted much better and are a bit older. I'd personally still rate the Acera higher than Microshift but possibly more for lifespan and reliability rather than actual operation which might be a little lighter on the Microshift shifter on the Paris Explorer

I bought a pack of these to replace a rotary gear shifter on one bike. The front derailleur shifter came as a bonus that will stay in the tool box.

Mountain Bicycle SL-TX30-7R Trigger Shifter 7 Gears 21 Speed Bike Cycling New bn

The Microshift shifter is probably better than this basic tourney shifter so personally I would put the Microshift shifter between the 2. Mine is the 8 speed model top right below.



This is the rotary shifter that has been very poor.



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Old 10-07-17, 04:14 PM   #70
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Bonzo, you may be right about longevity, although I've found that all trigger shifters can turn to a sticky mess if not flushed of gunk every now and then. What I specifically object to is anyone coming here with weirdly general claims of one company being higher-end than another, when all of them produce a range of products at different price points. "Shimano always better than Microshift" is marketing BS.
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