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Old 10-02-17, 04:07 PM   #1
bargainguy
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Brompton drops lawsuit against Dahon

Dahon says Brompton has dropped trademark lawsuit | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Article doesn't mention the Dahon model in question, but one wonders if it was the Curl.
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Old 10-03-17, 10:59 AM   #2
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Article doesn't mention the Dahon model in question, but one wonders if it was the Curl.
J'think?

The suit alleged that Dahon was violating a Brompton trademark, and asked for injunction barring the sale of a new Dahon bike model introduced at the show.

And the end result, as I predicted some time back:

Brompton has voluntarily withdrawn the injunction request, and has opted to pay for Dahon's legal costs.

I wish the gang @ Brompton all the best, but

Let's hope Brompton is getting better professional council about post-Brexit tariffs.
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Old 10-03-17, 01:19 PM   #3
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Brompton decides nobody is going to buy a Curl instead of a Brompton.
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Old 10-04-17, 03:25 AM   #4
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baikbike.com

Brompton drops copyright injunction against Dahon Curl


September 29 2017, Friedrichshafen, Germany – DAHON Europe received a legal copy of a request for injunction filed by Brompton against their recently debuted CURL folding bike, in a court in Munich, Germany, on August 28, the first day of the Eurobike show. The basis of the request is an alleged violation of Brompton’ s “copyright”. DAHON’s lawyer, Arndt Althous, esq. of Cologne, submitted an answer to the court, refuting the allegation, and pointing out the many inventions/patents realized in the Curl.

A week later, Brompton voluntarily withdrew the injunction request, opting to pay for DAHON’s legal costs.

Dr. David Hon, CEO of DAHON North America, Inc. commented that, “Thanks to our many patents, the Curl is stiffer, faster and more compact. Brompton was allowed to use our popular 45° handlebar post patent free-of-charge for years when others paid up to $12.7 in today’s value. Technological evolution must march on. Let’s all green the world together!”. He further reemphasized that DAHON remains a globalized American company, and China is only one of many operations
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Old 10-04-17, 06:52 AM   #5
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From BikeBiz:

"We raised an injunction against the Dahon Curl but withdrew due to the requirement for a high level of 'urgency’", said Brompton CEO Will Butler-Adams. "In such a scenario we are required to pay any legal fees of the other party."
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Old 10-04-17, 08:38 AM   #6
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baikbike.com

Brompton drops copyright injunction against Dahon Curl


September 29 2017, Friedrichshafen, Germany – DAHON Europe received a legal copy of a request for injunction filed by Brompton against their recently debuted CURL folding bike, in a court in Munich, Germany, on August 28, the first day of the Eurobike show. The basis of the request is an alleged violation of Brompton’ s “copyright”. DAHON’s lawyer, Arndt Althous, esq. of Cologne, submitted an answer to the court, refuting the allegation, and pointing out the many inventions/patents realized in the Curl.

A week later, Brompton voluntarily withdrew the injunction request, opting to pay for DAHON’s legal costs.

Dr. David Hon, CEO of DAHON North America, Inc. commented that, “Thanks to our many patents, the Curl is stiffer, faster and more compact. Brompton was allowed to use our popular 45° handlebar post patent free-of-charge for years when others paid up to $12.7 in today’s value. Technological evolution must march on. Let’s all green the world together!”. He further reemphasized that DAHON remains a globalized American company, and China is only one of many operations
I'm still confused about the Dahon's claims for their 45 degree handlebars. Brompton in 1981 looked like this.



Dahon of 1981 looked like this;



Later Dahon's seem to copy the Brompton design not the other way round. Dahon if anything completely abandoned their early designs and moved to an existing folding bike design with no innovation at all. Taking a conventional folding bike frame approach with the folding handlebar stem of Brompton.

So why would Brompton need to license from Dahon? Surely the folding handlebar credit should go to Brompton although to be perfectly honest it wouldn't surprise me if such a handlebar stem had already been designed and used on an earlier product. There is a long history of interesting and varied folding bike designs from mainland Europe and the UK.
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Old 10-04-17, 11:43 AM   #7
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The Brompton bike of Andrew Ritchie's patent looked like this, with its folding bars copied from Le Petit Bi:

Brompton.jpg

Then Dr. Hon secured this patent:

US4433852.jpg

In David Henshaw's Brompton Bicycle, Andrew Ritchie does not dispute this chronology. Mr. Ritchie is quoted as claiming he developed the 45° folding handle post independently prior to the Dahon patent and has some sketches with dates written on them to prove it. Unfortunately for Brompton, even if true that's not the way patents work. To make an a priori claim, one must make some public exhibition of the idea. Mr. Ritchie has consistently been unable to prove that he had done so prior to February 12, 1981.

On the Brompton web site under 'history' there's a picture labeled "1981", but if you click on it the image file name revealed is "1982 Production Run of 400 DSCN3981".

1982 Production Run of 400 DSCN3981.jpg

Last edited by tcs; 10-04-17 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 10-04-17, 02:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
The Brompton bike of Andrew Ritchie's patent looked like this, with its folding bars copied from Le Petit Bi:

Attachment 583334

Then Dr. Hon secured this patent:

Attachment 583335

In David Henshaw's Brompton Bicycle, Andrew Ritchie does not dispute this chronology. Mr. Ritchie is quoted as claiming he developed the 45° folding handle post independently prior to the Dahon patent and has some sketches with dates written on them to prove it. Unfortunately for Brompton, even if true that's not the way patents work. To make an a priori claim, one must make some public exhibition of the idea. Mr. Ritchie has consistently been unable to prove that he had done so prior to February 12, 1981.

On the Brompton web site under 'history' there's a picture labeled "1981", but if you click on it the image file name revealed is "1982 Production Run of 400 DSCN3981".

Attachment 583336
Thanks for the info, I couldn't find that information by quick searching. It stilll doesn't seem the same design though because it looks like the early Dahon model is used for that patent. Seems strange that such a simple tube and hinge design can be patented that encompasses other designs that are not the same. I'd assumed it couldn't be that early design with the large latch and rotating safety as the Brompton design is nothing like that, it uses a threaded bar and blocks to secure which is nothing like Dahon, it is only the use of a hinge that is the same but there are loads of old folding bike designs with hinges. Many chinese bikes have similar to that Dahon design but not Brompton. I just don't consider them the same and don't see the legal basis for the comparison. Doesn't that 1981 Brompton look like the Dahon Curl though. I mean the resemblance is blatant. Even more than the current Brompton model.



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Old 10-04-17, 02:42 PM   #9
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Lets get the lawyers out of it and just innovate!
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Old 10-04-17, 06:42 PM   #10
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A trademark is typically a name, word, phrase, logo, symbol, design, image, or a combination of these elements.

A patent is a set of exclusive rights granted by a sovereign state to an inventor or assignee for a limited period of time in exchange for detailed public disclosure of an invention. An invention is a solution to a specific technological problem and is a product or a process.[1]:17 Patents are a form of intellectual property.

<-- wiki/google (in case I get sued )

So Trademark, Copyright, Patent. I suppose of the three, Patent is the strongest?

I read the patent has expired. Even if Brompton has a patent the "granted by a sovereign state" thing could limit its application (China, Russia, Sudan for example).
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Old 10-04-17, 09:22 PM   #11
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So Trademark, Copyright, Patent. I suppose of the three, Patent is the strongest?
Not strongest or weakest - the three forms of intellectual property protection apply to different things.

A patent protects inventions or discoveries. Patents allow you to stop third parties from making, using or selling your invention for a certain period depending on the type of invention.
A copyright protects original works of authorship, including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies and songs. Copyrights informs others that you (as the author) intend to control the production, distribution, display or performance of your work.
A trademark is generally a word, phrase, symbol, or graphic design, or a combination thereof, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others. Trademarks protect the name or logo of your product by preventing other business from selling a product under the same identification.

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I read the patent has expired.
Brompton has employees who were born since the basic patent expired.

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Old 10-05-17, 06:52 AM   #12
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As I understand it, the Brompton company are ardent supports of the Conservative Party in the UK. I'm not, but there bikes, and their business model, from their point of view have hitherto been excellent. However, the guys they actively supported brought about Brexit so they have no sympathy in terms of its IP and trade consequences for the company.

And, as Dr Hon said, from a folder advocacy point of view, the more, better, cheaper folding bike we have, the better it is for the planet.

Bring on the Curl.
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Old 10-05-17, 08:44 AM   #13
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However, the guys they actively supported brought about Brexit so they have no sympathy in terms of its IP and trade consequences for the company.
I was mildly surprised that the Austrian-purchased Curl which Blackstrida was sorting came from Taiwan and not Dahon's partner Maxcom in Bulgaria. We've wondered on this forum before whether Maxcom manufactures Dahon folding frames in Plovdiv or only completes final assembly using frames manufactured in Shenzhen. Should the fruition of Brexit turn negative for Brompton, could they avoid EU tariffs by sending London manufactured frames, forks and handleposts to a modest warehouse space just across the Channel for final assembly? Hmph.

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Old 10-05-17, 06:54 PM   #14
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As I understand it, the Brompton company are ardent supports of the Conservative Party in the UK. I'm not, but there bikes, and their business model, from their point of view have hitherto been excellent. However, the guys they actively supported brought about Brexit so they have no sympathy in terms of its IP and trade consequences for the company.

And, as Dr Hon said, from a folder advocacy point of view, the more, better, cheaper folding bike we have, the better it is for the planet.

Bring on the Curl.
Surely the Curl is the worst example of that. Some Dahon's have been low priced and those generic chinese folding bikes sourced through Dahon and branded under Ford have been reasonably priced even if more expensive than other companies selling the same bikes however Curl is very expensive, right in the same ballpark area of Brompton but still low cost production in the far east. Likely to be a hugely profitable bicycle.

Surely the true providers of good quality folding bikes for the masses are the direct sellers and retail companies who purchase directly from factories to sell in their stores. These offer some of the best quality, best equipped bikes for the lowest prices, well below Dahon.

The reality is most companies in the UK support the Conservative party that's just the way it is. As for Brexit both labour and conservative were split on the vote. Many areas that were historically labour strongholds were those that voted for brexit at the highest percentage.

I voted to remain but there is no doubt a huge number of issues that Europe has caused for the UK and many other countries of Europe. The huge level of public debt across Europe is staggering.

I'd view the honesty and integrity of Brompton well above Dahon personally.

Not that I really think about the companies when buying a bike though. I tend to focus on achieving the best value purchase possible for my funds and try to cut through all marketing and brand values and just concentrate on the actual product itself especially as most of them are being made in similar far east factories.

Last edited by Bonzo Banana; 10-06-17 at 04:12 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-06-17, 01:25 AM   #15
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The reason Brompton used trademark to sue Dahon Curl is because the look and feel seems like Dahon Curl copied from Brompton. I am not sure about others but it seems to me Curl looks like the MK I, but that bike was discontinued more than 30 years ago. Anyway, just like people here already mentioned, most of Brompton's patents were expired long time ago.

I also pre-ordered a Dahon Curl and about to receive the bike in a week or two. I think it will be like the way it was advertised that it is stiffer and faster than my 6-speed Brompton but probably not as faster as my 2-speed Ti Brompton. I am not a fan of the internal gear hub, particularly made by Sturmey Archer.
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Old 10-06-17, 01:52 AM   #16
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From Japanese site, it mentioned i8 is using

Shifter: Shimano Nexus SL - C 6000 - 8
Interior hub: Shimano Nexus SG-C6001-8V
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Old 10-06-17, 05:00 AM   #17
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Curl is very expensive, right in the same ballpark area of Brompton
Working through the Brompton configurator on an EU web site I get an M3R price of €1466. The (initial) price of a Curl i3 is €899.
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Old 10-06-17, 05:25 AM   #18
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Working through the Brompton configurator on an EU web site I get an M3R price of €1466. The (initial) price of a Curl i3 is €899.
I thought an entry level Brompton was close to £1000 give or take and the only Curl pricing I can find is this;

Folding Bikes by DAHON 35th Anniversary DAHON CURL i8 Now Available for Pre-Order ? Folding Bikes by DAHON

Which has $1,800.

Obviously the kickstarter campaign had a discounted price as is the way with many kickstarter projects but that isn't the retail price.

I don't think its unfair to compare them on price.
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Old 10-06-17, 07:00 AM   #19
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The reason Brompton used trademark to sue Dahon Curl is because the look and feel seems like Dahon Curl copied from Brompton.
I searched but couldn't find any example of someone trademarking or copyrighting a 'feel'. Intriguing idea, though.

One might under some* countries' laws sue or ask for an injunction under trademark or copyright if a product was so nearly similar in appearance that potential customers might not distinguish between the two items. (In the USA one would secure a design patent for this protection, not a copyright or trademark.) This was the basis of Brompton's suit against Neobike in Dutch courts, and I'm guessing the basis for their request for injunction against Dahon.

While there have been a few claims on the 'net that the Curl is a 'clone' of the Brompton, I find it incredulous that anyone would be unable to tell the two bikes apart. (The Brompton fanboys who have criticized the Curl's aesthetics obviously agree!) Anyway, this seems to be the argument Dahon's lawyer made, presenting as evidence the many novel features of the Curl that have been granted EU patents. The result was Brompton's suit didn't last past the initial hearing, and Brompton was ordered to pay Dahon's legal expenses (ouch).

I recall that last spring there was a prediction (couched in satire) that Brompton would try some sort of legal action against Dahon when the Curl entered the market.


*Andrew Ritchie has said Brompton wouldn't have gotten any copyright protection against Neobike under British law and the company had to go shopping to find a country where their suit had a chance to be successful.

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Old 10-06-17, 07:11 AM   #20
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I thought an entry level Brompton was close to £1000
That would be a Brompton M1E (£1000 = €1116 @ today's exchange rate). I gave the price in Euros the Brompton configurator generated, €1466, for an M3R with Marathon tires, the configuration closest to the specification of the Curl i3.

Quote:
The only Curl pricing I can find is this...
Uh, yeah, see how the €899 price I gave is underlined? It's called 'hypertext'. Put your cursor on it and click; you'll be taken to an actual EU retail internet site offering the Curl i3 for sale.

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I don't think its unfair to compare them on price.
Absolutely agree, and I did compare equivalently spec'ed models on current prices advertised in the same market.
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Old 10-06-17, 08:02 AM   #21
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That would be a Brompton M1E (£1000 = €1116 @ today's exchange rate). I gave the price in Euros the Brompton configurator generated, €1466, for an M3R with Marathon tires, the configuration closest to the specification of the Curl i3.



Uh, yeah, see how the €899 price I gave is underlined? It's called 'hypertext'. Put your cursor on it and click; you'll be taken to an actual EU retail internet site offering the Curl i3 for sale.



Absolutely agree, and I did compare equivalently spec'ed models on current prices advertised in the same market.
I had clicked on the link but was looking for a more official retail price as many dealers discount and many don't. However I guess it's more bout what you consider similar pricing. No doubt in time we will see what the Curl settles at for its various levels of specification. Strange that, that page only lists a weight capacity of 105kg for the Curl I thought this was one area where it was meant to be above Brompton not below.
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Old 10-06-17, 01:25 PM   #22
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However I guess it's more bout what you consider similar pricing.
I don't doubt that's a discounted price; it's also their current price anyone could walk in the door and pay. Just wondering: know an authorized Brompton dealer that discounts for more customers than just good friends and employees?
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Old 10-06-17, 01:26 PM   #23
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...that page only lists a weight capacity of 105kg for the Curl...
Fair point; several numbers have been published.

Heeeeeyyyyyyy, Thor! What's the official, from the factory number here?
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Old 10-06-17, 02:11 PM   #24
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280 lbs
1800 is the 35th ANIversary price... which includes a couple things, like your own signature laser edged on the bike.... and its alimited edition numbered from 1 to 500 ... different paintjob, couple small bits whch are nicer as well


I do not have a correct pricing for the regular Curl as I am fighting for 8 speed hubs for the US
but it will be less than the 35th ANi version for sure


Thor
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Old 10-06-17, 04:28 PM   #25
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I do not have a correct pricing for the regular Curl as I am fighting for 8 speed hubs for the US
but it will be less than the 35th ANi version for sure


Thor
I really hope the pricing is more realistic. This bike was supposed to be what Brompton isn't,...and that's AFFORDABLE.
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