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Old 11-03-17, 03:53 PM   #76
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I went to a different Brompton dealer today just to double check if they could make it work. Turns out there is a 9cm difference in the distance on my bike from mid-seat to stem compared to the "s" model brompton which is the only one that puts me in the right riding position. They had a seat clip thingy that moves the seat forward but it has to go almost all the way forward to get me close enough and then my KOP position is horrible, and my knees are crappy enough as they are so I don't wanna make them worse. I could live with the 170mm cranks although mine are 165mm and that's better, but the cute little brompton is definitely not made for people with "t-rex" arms :-(. Dang, the little bugger is cute, though.
On the bright side, the 16" wheels are not a lot worse than 20" in terms of ride quality because I can still press on the pedals or stand when it's rough.
Just admit ou want one. It is keeping you awake at night is`nt it?
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Old 11-03-17, 05:31 PM   #77
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Just admit ou want one. It is keeping you awake at night is`nt it?
I would like one - but it just won't fit me :-(. I admit I like the more classic round lines than the more speedster lines of the pakiT. But there is no easy way to move me forward nearly 10cm without changing the knee position for the worse. If stupid brompton just made frames in 3 sizes, I could get a small frame. Grrrr.....
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Old 11-03-17, 08:57 PM   #78
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I would like one - but it just won't fit me :-(. I admit I like the more classic round lines than the more speedster lines of the pakiT. But there is no easy way to move me forward nearly 10cm without changing the knee position for the worse. If stupid brompton just made frames in 3 sizes, I could get a small frame. Grrrr.....
Maybe I need to adjust my head but I can not help thinking you should be able to rotate M bars (or maybe also P bars) backwards enough to meet up with your hands where you need them to meet. This would include a quick release on top of the stem and one more quick release to deal with when folding than the rest of us but on a Dahon it would be the same so not a big deal. I`ll take a look at mine tomorrow, rotate the bars and take a picture. What is your inseam? I can adjust the seat to the right height before taking the photo to make it more real life.

I can take the pictures oudoors so you can see the snow that arrived approx 14 days ago (since you recently asked if I lived in Vegas ).
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Old 11-03-17, 09:54 PM   #79
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Maybe I need to adjust my head but I can not help thinking you should be able to rotate M bars (or maybe also P bars) backwards enough to meet up with your hands where you need them to meet. This would include a quick release on top of the stem and one more quick release to deal with when folding than the rest of us but on a Dahon it would be the same so not a big deal. I`ll take a look at mine tomorrow, rotate the bars and take a picture. What is your inseam? I can adjust the seat to the right height before taking the photo to make it more real life.

I can take the pictures oudoors so you can see the snow that arrived approx 14 days ago (since you recently asked if I lived in Vegas ).
The shop tried that...we are talking about a 10cm difference (it was 9.87). And I ride in an aggressive position so the S bars are the only ones close to the right height. On my NWT, my bars are 2.5" below my saddle. So rotating the bars back on M, H, or P bars puts me too much upright. I've got some disc issues and in my case, being bent is what helps to open space between the discs; I know, most people with back problems like to be upright. I asked if I could put my Nitto allrounders on (like a smaller north roads) and they said it wouldn't work, it would screw up the fold and the cables and some other thing I can't recall. Because low north roads are the only way I think it could work for me. At some point, it is just too much trouble and too much after-market fiddling/cost.

But I'd love to see the snow pics!!!
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Old 11-04-17, 04:14 AM   #80
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The shop tried that...we are talking about a 10cm difference (it was 9.87). And I ride in an aggressive position so the S bars are the only ones close to the right height. On my NWT, my bars are 2.5" below my saddle. So rotating the bars back on M, H, or P bars puts me too much upright. I've got some disc issues and in my case, being bent is what helps to open space between the discs; I know, most people with back problems like to be upright. I asked if I could put my Nitto allrounders on (like a smaller north roads) and they said it wouldn't work, it would screw up the fold and the cables and some other thing I can't recall. Because low north roads are the only way I think it could work for me. At some point, it is just too much trouble and too much after-market fiddling/cost.

But I'd love to see the snow pics!!!
Ok, that is a pity. I bet the bars you talk about could work but I understand the shop saying "no" becouse testing it out would be expensive (hours of work) and who is going to pay for that? Peopel have put road bars on Bromptons. They mess up the fold a bit but it works if you know how to handle it for sure.

Sounds like you could benefit from a lower stem.
I have a M stem I was stupid enough to cut the top off to make it longer. What you need is somebody to cut approx 10 cms of that one and weld it back on again- maybe.

Also I have been thinking some times about putting a different stem on Bromptons. It is a quill stem so easy peasy. Just need to take a close look on a folded Brompton to find out if a shorter straight (B stems are bent away from the rider to give more reach) quill stem can be fitted. They are as common as empty bottles on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Folding-Bik...rMGpNAL9rwbTLQ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FOLDING-BIK...QAAOSwx2dYJW5M

The last one is for 1" but you get the idea.

You`ll get your snow picture soon

Did you look into other folders? I understand your "steel is real" thinking but I keep thinking altough I like the packiT i do not think I want to fold it six times a day!

Did you look at the Dahon Curve? thor used to sell a swept bar some yers ago. He must have been thinking it should be for use on the bikes he sold. Adjustable height stem, quick release on top of stem for rotating bars. Not at all impossible to roll folded. Almost as small as a B.

What about keeping an eye on CL and look for a used Tikit? BF used to adjust them for little peopel did they not?

That BF bike with the adjustable top tube is an option too, could get it as short as you want (TT). I do not know about weight or folding but like on other bikes light wheels, crank, pedal, seatpost bars and bolts can be bought in lighter materials. Since you need a shorter TT, could some of the TT that you do not need be cut off? Just thinking out loud here.
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Old 11-04-17, 04:43 AM   #81
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Peopel put road bars and bull horns on bromptons all the time so why not swept bars? I understand that a shop do not want to do it but I would ask around. They made rcumbents out of Bromptons so what you need is far from impossible IMHO. The B would give you several options for racks with wheels to roll it.

https://www.google.no/search?q=bromp...h=500&dpr=1.38


EDIT:
Brompton with bull horns. Rotated to give a good fold. Give me just one good reason they can not be installed the oposite way, pointing towards the rider instead of away from the rider??? Sorry, does not make sense. Just find somebody who know what they are talking about, somebody brave enough to do it. Or do it yourself!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bromptonia/6290596779/


EDIT ":

"Brompton" with straight stem. I think he built this bike from scratch in TI but it is a copy of a B. Maybe he could build you a straight stem (and he could do it in TI for less weight) or he could modify the B stem.. i bet he would not need to have the bike with him to do it (just the stem) or the bike could be bought close to where he lives (if possible) and then shipped to you after it is finished.

https://ufbusa.ishopserver.com/Homepage.html

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Old 11-04-17, 08:03 AM   #82
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Badmother, I have the same reach problem with the Brompton and had similar experiences with test rides. Even the short rides were hurting my wrists and shoulders. The store salespeople reacted to my request to adjust the brakes and handlebar as if I was asking for their firstborn. But they did relent. Well, yes, adjustments can be made to accommodate my reach issues, but compromised the world famous Brompton fold. What's the point if you're not going to get that compact fold? Add the weight and I decided to move on.
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Old 11-04-17, 08:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
The shop tried that...we are talking about a 10cm difference (it was 9.87). And I ride in an aggressive position so the S bars are the only ones close to the right height. On my NWT, my bars are 2.5" below my saddle. So rotating the bars back on M, H, or P bars puts me too much upright. I've got some disc issues and in my case, being bent is what helps to open space between the discs; I know, most people with back problems like to be upright. I asked if I could put my Nitto allrounders on (like a smaller north roads) and they said it wouldn't work, it would screw up the fold and the cables and some other thing I can't recall. Because low north roads are the only way I think it could work for me. At some point, it is just too much trouble and too much after-market fiddling/cost.
Searching for less reach in combination with a low bar is a bit of an unusual problem on a Brompton. Here are some options:

1.) Buy a used MK3. It has the old mainframe, used from 1987 up to 2004, which is about 3cm shorter (wheelbase 101cm vs. 104 cm on the Mk4). Mk3 is better than Mk2 as, being the latest model with the old frame, it has the best components of the older models, thus not needing many upgrade parts. This means: Dual caliper front brake, better spokes and some other bits. I'd upgrade to the brake levers of the post 2013-bikes and install a rear frame clip (standard from 2008 on). The Mk3 was built from 2000 - 2004 and I would try to find one after 2002 as it already has the bolt on for the dreailleur on the rear-frame. Or you manage to find an early one with the five-gear S/A-sprinter on it (quite rare as only built for less than a year).

That leaves 7cm to go.

2.) Change and tilt your bars. As the Mk3 is always an M-model it as (together with the P) the lowest stem of all standard bromptons (valid for the M-model BEFORE 2017). Switch the bars to something lower than the standard (i.e. the new standard brompton-bars used from 2017 on) and tilt them towards you. Quick-release on the bolt makes the bike fold as usual. Should almost solve the issue. Works best with the M-stem as the stem itself has less of an angle than the P but the P should still be ok.


Alternatively you could also use a Dahon/Tern andros stem adaptor with a flat bar - it offers about 8cm of "negative" reach. https://buy.ternbicycles.com/products/andros-stem

3.) Use the Brompton seatpost-adapter-pin (part number QSAPA). This should bring the rest of the necessary limitation of reach w/o bringing the saddle too far forward. (BTW: This pin should always be pointing forward, never backwards as shown at nycewheels as this would stress the frame too much).



With a combination of all three you should be there.

As an alternative you could look at this company from the netherlands. They could provide you with a custom made stem, usually used for getting higher bars. But you could obviously also use it for getting less reach, using an ahead stem the other way round (or possibly a traditional stem in the same way). This way you would possibly not have to deal with the saddle position but the folded size of the bike would become bigger.

Last edited by berlinonaut; 11-04-17 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 11-04-17, 09:34 AM   #84
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I suspect I COULD make it work, but do I want to (1) go to all that trouble and (2) pay all the extra money on top of a not-cheap brompton and (3) not have a guarantee it will work? Nope. It's adorable and I love the looks and the fold is amazing, yes, but I'd still be carrying it up 3 flights to my son's apartment so I would end up buying a super light model. Then I'd have to add on the cost of retrofitting it to maybe make it comfortable. It's just all too much trouble. And takes away some of the joy of getting a new bike by making it a pita.
With the pakiT, I know it will fit. I will get a bike that is less than 19 lbs with saddle/pedals. I already know how to repair/work on it so no learning curve. I can easily lift and carry it. It's a different "look" and not as cute as the brompton and it doesn't fold as compactly (but it does fold as fast or faster in quick fold mode which is what I'd use). And it will be exactly the way I want it right from the start, no headaches.
I may always jones over the look of the brompton but it will be like looking at a Van Gogh longing even though you already have a Picasso, lol. I've got "old-fashioned" taste which is why I like my lovely quill Technomics stem and graceful Nitto bars over an ahead stem and straight bars in terms of pure looks.
But I can learn to love that damned Picasso just as much as that Van Gogh!!!
I know there's the Curve and the Curl but I'm definitely a steel bike girl...I've ridden aluminum bikes and just not crazy about the road feel. I came super close to buying a Swift Xootr instead of my BF and the only thing that made me pass on the Swift was I could FEEL a different ride quality, purely subjective, that I was not crazy about. You can knock your teeth out riding on some of the roads here and the steel just really helps to soak it up.
So I will cast longing looks as I see people on Brompton's (and I blow past them on my pakiT, lol).
I know in Europe, people can rent bromptons just by the day; wish they did that here. Then I could get my brompton "fix" by renting one every so often. Fit wouldn't matter if I was just pootling around for a few hours.

Last edited by linberl; 11-04-17 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 11-04-17, 10:47 AM   #85
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Badmother, I have the same reach problem with the Brompton and had similar experiences with test rides. Even the short rides were hurting my wrists and shoulders. The store salespeople reacted to my request to adjust the brakes and handlebar as if I was asking for their firstborn. But they did relent. Well, yes, adjustments can be made to accommodate my reach issues, but compromised the world famous Brompton fold. What's the point if you're not going to get that compact fold? Add the weight and I decided to move on.
I understand how you are thinking but I doubt if done the right way it is going to compromise the fold. Look at the picture f the folded B with the bullhorns. A quick release on top of the stem just like with a Tern or Dahon.

I am tall ish myself so do not have the problem. Also I am lucky to have an older B with a shorter frame. I like the wheel base of the B but not the reach. As the guarantee expires on our bodys we have to adjust.

It is not important to me what peopel buy, just that they have looked into all options before deciding. Mrs L keeps comming back to the B so there must be some atraction there
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Old 11-04-17, 10:54 AM   #86
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I've got "old-fashioned" taste which is why I like my lovely quill Technomics stem and graceful Nitto bars over an ahead stem and straight bars in terms of pure looks.
Here we agree for sure!

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So I will cast longing looks as I see people on Brompton's (and I blow past them on my pakiT, lol).
Just make sure those longing looks is not misunderstood
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Old 11-04-17, 12:00 PM   #87
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....but I'd still be carrying it up 3 flights to my son's apartment...
This may be a long shot, but would you consider an alternative carry method - ie, on top of a shoulder? There's a reason that you'll always see delivery guys carrying those 5 gal/40lb water cooler jugs, or 50lb sand bags on top their shoulder - it is FAR easier, better balanced, and more efficient than suitcase style (i.e., hanging from an arm, below waist, at side of leg). Shoulder carry does take a little technique and practice to bring it up and used to the balance point, but you don't need to be strong (avg, female should have no problem w/25lbs). A great way to compare/practice is to just load a airline carry-on bag with 10-15lbs and walk through your entire home trying both shoulder carry and suitcase carry - work the weight up as you get comfortable with it.

Suitcase style, I'll only carry my folder (up 34lbs btw, loaded w/accessories, gear, lock, and water) a few yards, and in open areas. Longer distances, staircases, narrow halls, and especially going through doors, it invariably goes up on my shoulder. For even longer distances, I'll use both shoulders.
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Old 11-04-17, 12:35 PM   #88
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This may be a long shot, but would you consider an alternative carry method - ie, on top of a shoulder? There's a reason that you'll always see delivery guys carrying those 5 gal/40lb water cooler jugs, or 50lb sand bags on top their shoulder - it is FAR easier, better balanced, and more efficient than suitcase style (i.e., hanging from an arm, below waist, at side of leg). Shoulder carry does take a little technique and practice to bring it up and used to the balance point, but you don't need to be strong (avg, female should have no problem w/25lbs). A great way to compare/practice is to just load a airline carry-on bag with 10-15lbs and walk through your entire home trying both shoulder carry and suitcase carry - work the weight up as you get comfortable with it.

Suitcase style, I'll only carry my folder (up 34lbs btw, loaded w/accessories, gear, lock, and water) a few yards, and in open areas. Longer distances, staircases, narrow halls, and especially going through doors, it invariably goes up on my shoulder. For even longer distances, I'll use both shoulders.
I'd consider it, but it still means my other points apply...too much trouble, no guarantee of it, additional cost. Maybe if i come across a really really cheap used one...
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Old 11-04-17, 01:17 PM   #89
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I'd consider it, but it still means my other points apply...too much trouble, no guarantee of it, additional cost. Maybe if i come across a really really cheap used one...
Sorry, wasn't trying to recommend the Brompton so much (if it doesn't fit you, it doesn't fit) - I was more trying to suggest a easier way to carry your Pakit up those 3 flights... or even more in a different situation.

I think you can shoulder carry many folders, just might require an extra step to tie-up/Velcro lock the fold. I saw the folded Packit and all you need is a clear section of that main tube to rest on a shoulder (a stick-on pad helps) - just might need to position the folded handbar lower.

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Old 11-04-17, 01:41 PM   #90
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Sorry, wasn't trying to recommend the Brompton so much (if it doesn't fit you, it doesn't fit) - I was more trying to suggest a easier way to carry your Pakit up those 3 flights... or even more in a different situation.

I think you can shoulder carry many folders, just might require an extra step to tie-up/Velcro lock the fold. I saw the folded Packit and all you need is a clear section of that main tube to rest on a shoulder (a stick-on pad helps) - just might need to position the folded handbar lower.
Ah, I thought you meant the brommie. Not worried about carrying the pakiT - it will maybe not be quite even 19 lbs and I can carry that easily with the shoulder strap thing I have.
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Old 11-04-17, 01:42 PM   #91
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You could use an aber-hallo style adapter to bring the bars closer too without much fold impact.
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Old 11-04-17, 03:39 PM   #92
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You could use an aber-hallo style adapter to bring the bars closer too without much fold impact.
I thought about that, but wouldn't it bring them up as well? The S bar is as high as I would want.
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Old 11-04-17, 04:04 PM   #93
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I thought about that, but wouldn't it bring them up as well? The S bar is as high as I would want.
You can let the Aber Hallo point upwards, backwards, forward - as you like. That's what I suggested with the Andros a couple of postings earlier. Works exactly the same. The difference between the two is that the Andros has a quick-release out of the box (with the Aber Hallo you have to have to build a solution yourself) and the Andros is higher (or in your case: shortens the reach more) than the Aber Hallo.
If putting one of those on an S-Brompton is enough for you I'd go for it. You'll however possibly need longer cables.
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Old 11-04-17, 06:17 PM   #94
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You can let the Aber Hallo point upwards, backwards, forward - as you like. That's what I suggested with the Andros a couple of postings earlier. Works exactly the same. The difference between the two is that the Andros has a quick-release out of the box (with the Aber Hallo you have to have to build a solution yourself) and the Andros is higher (or in your case: shortens the reach more) than the Aber Hallo.
If putting one of those on an S-Brompton is enough for you I'd go for it. You'll however possibly need longer cables.
I went and looked at both devices (Thor USA) and it seems no matter what it raises the bars as you shorten the reach. Unless you put it on "backwards" which would totally alter the handling of the bike. Am I missing something?
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Old 11-04-17, 07:32 PM   #95
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I went and looked at both devices (Thor USA) and it seems no matter what it raises the bars as you shorten the reach. Unless you put it on "backwards" which would totally alter the handling of the bike. Am I missing something?
Nothing wrong with backwards once you get used to it I`d say. Is there much difference between "10 cm`s in front of the stem as we are used to and 10 cm`s behind the stem?
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Old 11-04-17, 07:57 PM   #96
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Nothing wrong with backwards once you get used to it I`d say. Is there much difference between "10 cm`s in front of the stem as we are used to and 10 cm`s behind the stem?
Hmmmm....have you ever done it? All I can say is when I switched from straight bars to north roads the steering was a LOT more twitchy. I got used to it eventually as it eliminated some pains I had. I can't imagine what a backwards stem would do, especially out of the saddle. As for the brompton, I don't want one enough to go through all these hoops to make it work...sort of. For me, that's the one critical flaw with the brompton - it's one size fits all, or doesn't. I just can't justify spending 2 grand on a bike that ends up looking like a franken burger.
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Old 11-05-17, 01:43 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Hmmmm....have you ever done it? All I can say is when I switched from straight bars to north roads the steering was a LOT more twitchy. I got used to it eventually as it eliminated some pains I had. I can't imagine what a backwards stem would do, especially out of the saddle. As for the brompton, I don't want one enough to go through all these hoops to make it work...sort of. For me, that's the one critical flaw with the brompton - it's one size fits all, or doesn't. I just can't justify spending 2 grand on a bike that ends up looking like a franken burger.
Frankly, I don't know why people are still trying to talk you into a bike you don't want. You want a Pakit. Get a Pakit!
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Old 11-05-17, 03:02 AM   #98
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Frankly, I don't know why people are still trying to talk you into a bike you don't want. You want a Pakit. Get a Pakit!
Well, obviously not - it seems more that her heart is sold to a Brommi and the Packit is just the choice that looks easier. Whatever bike she chooses does not matter to me.
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Old 11-05-17, 03:24 AM   #99
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I went and looked at both devices (Thor USA) and it seems no matter what it raises the bars as you shorten the reach. Unless you put it on "backwards" which would totally alter the handling of the bike. Am I missing something?
Well, it seems obvious to me that if you want to shorten reach you have to point the thing backwards - that's the whole idea. You have three possibilities for shortening the reach:
- bring the saddle more forward. You don't want that.
- use a shorter frame (by buying a used bike). You don't want that.
- bring the bars further back. You don't want that either.



That said I know a lot of short people that either are happy with the standard S-model or ride a M- or P-model with S-bars mounted. Personally I know nobody who has shortened the reach, no matter how small. If you have access to the Brompton-book by David Henshaw: On page 163 there's a picture of a m-Brompton that has been adopted to fit a child of maybe eight years of age or maybe less (judging from the picture). Modifications are:

- shorter cranks (145mm)
- shortened seat post
- saddle pin adapter
- shorter suspension block
- shorter brake levers (no longer necessary as today's levers are adjustable)
- shortened M-stem with stock M-bars.

The reach in the bar area has not been shortened artificially and still it seems to fit.

So if you still need the modification and (wrongly) are in fear of the adaptor raising the height (or just do not want to point it backwards) use a lower stem than the S - as said a couple of postings before: P-stem or M-stem (the latter preferably before 2017) are lower than the S plus at the same time have less reach than the S-stem (look at the picture a couple of postings above). With one of those in combination with one of the adaptors mentioned an an S-bar you should be able to have the same height as an S with less reach AND pointing the adaptor not straight backwards but sloped to an angle. Either way you'll not end up with higher bars than an S.

The money involved is more or less negligible. I.e. if you start with an M or P-model: You need an S-bar (30€), the stem adaptor (20-60€) and possibly the seat pin adaptor (10-30€). So roughly 100€ max. minus what you get for selling the stock bar.

Last edited by berlinonaut; 11-05-17 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 11-05-17, 03:30 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Hmmmm....have you ever done it? All I can say is when I switched from straight bars to north roads the steering was a LOT more twitchy. I got used to it eventually as it eliminated some pains I had. I can't imagine what a backwards stem would do, especially out of the saddle. As for the brompton, I don't want one enough to go through all these hoops to make it work...sort of. For me, that's the one critical flaw with the brompton - it's one size fits all, or doesn't. I just can't justify spending 2 grand on a bike that ends up looking like a franken burger.
I guess it is easy for me to talk. I keep forgetting what peopel pay for Bromptons. I got ours for 400 each, NOS. changed out some bits and pieces over the years but nothing we had to, just enjoy upgrading and tinkering. Also we have the space needed to keep several bikes.
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