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10 facts about Dahon and why you shouldn't buy it

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10 facts about Dahon and why you shouldn't buy it

Old 05-19-18, 08:34 AM
  #1  
MJBikes99
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Old 05-19-18, 09:56 AM
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That is very interesting read. I didn’t realize Dahon didn’t create their bikes from their own factory anymore.

Where red did you find that information from your post? I just want to read more about it. Thanks
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Old 05-19-18, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MJBikes99 View Post
All following information was from online and some industry veterans who was closed to Dahon before. I think most of them are correct. If there are some points are not true please correct me.

1. Dahon was founded by David Hon and his younger brother Henry Hon in 1982, but Henry left the company several years ago as he has different understanding with David about the direction of the company.

2. Dahon was going to go bankruptcy in 1990’s, Joshua Hon, a Standford graduate, son of David Hon , joined the company and saved Dahon.

3. David Hon went to mainland China in late 1990s and built the Dahon China as production factory for Dahon Taiwan. Dahon Twaiwan was then headed by Joshua Hon and was the product development, R & D and global marketing center for Dahon brand. Hence we can say Dahon Taiwan (changed the name to Tern later) which is the real Dahon.

4. Most Dahon’s current models were designed by Dahon Taiwan ( Tern), but as David Hon was the owner of the trademark and the representative of the company in law, so when they broke up in 2011, Dahon Taiwan couldn’t use the Dahon brand any more.

5. Although Dahon China factory took over the control of Dahon brand ,it has been declining in global market year by year since the breakup with Tern while Tern is growing year by year.

6. Dahon cut off its production in 2016 and outsource its production to other Chinese factories to survive., that is why the quality of Dahon bikes is getting worse year by year.Dahon alleged that it cut off the production as they will focus on R& D and marketing which is not true at all. it was because it can’t survive if they keep hundreds of workers. Most R & D staff left Dahon and there is no any real R & D force in Dahon. None of the current R & D staff has too many R & D ability and expertise.

7. Dahon EU is just a distributor of Dahon China, and under Dahon EU there are many country distributors. Dahon EU pay the lisence fee for the brand and Dahon China has no say to EU market in terms of marketing, sales, service etc. That’s also why the Dahon bike price in EU is so high. you are paying for the midmen !! Dahon USA is owned by Dahon China and David Hon is still the real controller of Dahon USA.

8. Dahon source the cheap components from other chinse companies and they just say it is Dahon ***, like Dahon pedal etc. so Dahon can sell the bike at a higher price.

9 Dahon's ebikes are basically a regular Dahon ebikes with a motor driver which Dahon sourced from some unknown Chinese factory.

10. Curl is basically a copycat of Brompton and is selling at a higher price as Brompton.
  1. don't care
  2. don't care
  3. don't care
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  5. don't care
  6. don't care
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  8. don't care
  9. don't care
  10. don't care
There are so many things wrong with your view. As a consumer Ill buy the best bike that fits what I want out of it, who cares what the company does or who runs it? Apple is a terrible company, everyone still has iPhones for some reason. And you seem quite naÔve about big business, especially manufacturing.

Is there this much faboyism in other sections of this site? I get enough of this crap in PC forums where idoits create "don't by intel", then another mental giant creates a "don't buy AMD" thread. Grow up, get over it.
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Old 05-19-18, 02:01 PM
  #4  
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The creator of Dahon runs Dahon USA, where I buy my Dahons. The electric Dahon is quite clearly a kit motor on a Dahon..this is not a mystery. Your list of Bad Things About Dahon is ridiculous.
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Old 05-19-18, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Remi View Post
The creator of Dahon runs Dahon USA, where I buy my Dahons. The electric Dahon is quite clearly a kit motor on a Dahon..this is not a mystery. Your list of Bad Things About Dahon is ridiculous.
Again just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnít make it ridiculous. Do you even know the meaning of the word? You donít have to agree with the OP but has he said anything that was incorrect? I donít see why you have to call that ridiculous.
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Old 05-19-18, 02:35 PM
  #6  
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Originally Posted by kidshibuya View Post
  1. don't care
  2. don't care
  3. don't care
  4. don't care
  5. don't care
  6. don't care
  7. don't care
  8. don't care
  9. don't care
  10. don't care
There are so many things wrong with your view. As a consumer Ill buy the best bike that fits what I want out of it, who cares what the company does or who runs it? Apple is a terrible company, everyone still has iPhones for some reason. And you seem quite naÔve about big business, especially manufacturing.

Is there this much faboyism in other sections of this site? I get enough of this crap in PC forums where idoits create "don't by intel", then another mental giant creates a "don't buy AMD" thread. Grow up, get over it.
Right. Nobody cares about what the company does or who runs it. because when people found out about harvey weinstein, the company is still thriving today.

Stop calling people naive when you donít know about big business yourself
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/250918

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Old 05-19-18, 02:41 PM
  #7  
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Surely most of these quality criticisms can also be aimed at Tern who I would say despite their short life seem to be more associated with dangerous frames and recalls. Both Tern and Dahon seem to outsource a lot of product but I can accept that R&D is better at Tern and there does seem to be some truth to that.

The Dahon factory in China looks fairly low tech to me, basic frame construction and more a general assembly factory but I've not seen Tern's factory it could be all outsourced for all I know or again simply assembly.

I'm not a fan of either brand to be honest mainly because the quality vs pricing seems very poor here in the UK. That's not to say they are bad bikes just your money can go further elsewhere. That for me is the main reason not to consider either brand. I can get 2 higher quality folding bikes for the price of one lower quality Dahon bike.
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Old 05-19-18, 02:47 PM
  #8  
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Damon Vybe

My 1st folder was a Dahon Vybe. It has met or exceeded my expectations as a reliable commuter bike, air travel bike, and has handled every road and offroad terrain that I have encountered throughout the country. This is why I would recommend a Dahon product because how something performs when I need it to is my top priority.

My second folder is an Airnimal chameleon. It is blazing fast and top of the line. I take it on air travel for non commuting workouts. Each has a primary purpose and the roles can be switched if needed, but the Vybe is better dialed in for downtown commuting at a fraction of the Airnimal cost.

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Old 05-19-18, 02:47 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
Surely most of these quality criticisms can also be aimed at Tern who I would say despite their short life seem to be more associated with dangerous frames and recalls. Both Tern and Dahon seem to outsource a lot of product but I can accept that R&D is better at Tern and there does seem to be some truth to that.

The Dahon factory in China looks fairly low tech to me, basic frame construction and more a general assembly factory but I've not seen Tern's factory it could be all outsourced for all I know or again simply assembly.

I'm not a fan of either brand to be honest mainly because the quality vs pricing seems very poor here in the UK. That's not to say they are bad bikes just your money can go further elsewhere. That for me is the main reason not to consider either brand. I can get 2 higher quality folding bikes for the price of one lower quality Dahon bike.
do you know if tern has their own manufacturing facility? Iíve trying to find this out and there seems to be evidence of a factory in Macao but I canít verify that.
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Old 05-19-18, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by phyko View Post


do you know if tern has their own manufacturing facility? Iíve trying to find this out and there seems to be evidence of a factory in Macao but I canít verify that.
On the Dahon wiki page they mention a Macao facility where I believe bikes were assembled for selling there due to it being preferable to assemble in Macao which is similar to Hong Kong in being part of China but also partially independent. Maybe that facility transferred to Tern when they separated? When Tern had the recall on frames it seemed like they were tendering contracts to build them and had a handful of manufacturer's supplying such frames. One of which was obviously very poor quality hence the recall. A quick google gives no indication of a Tern factory anywhere but this isn't unusual, many top brands have no factory or even proper design facilities sometimes and merely order product from the main manufacturer's like fuji-ta.

My impression though is Tern do invest in R&D but outsource their manufacturing, this may change in the future of course. Where as Dahon is more varied with some product outsourced, I suspect the majority but it could be a minority. Looking at their frame production I think I'd rather have their outsourced frames.
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Old 05-19-18, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by phyko View Post


Again just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnít make it ridiculous. Do you even know the meaning of the word? You donít have to agree with the OP but has he said anything that was incorrect? I donít see why you have to call that ridiculous.
Well, guy on the internet, my opinion is that this screed against Dahon is ridiculous. That's how opinions work.
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Old 05-19-18, 03:12 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by phyko View Post


Right. Nobody cares about what the company does or who runs it. because when people found out about harvey weinstein, the company is still thriving today.

Stop calling people naive when you donít know about big business yourself
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/250918

Heard they couldn't sell the company and were forced to go bankrupt or close in the case of Mr. W.

So, does this belong in Foo, P&R the section for customer satisfaction posts or does it just need to be closed before the bottles start hitting the chicken wire?
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Old 05-19-18, 06:33 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Heard they couldn't sell the company and were forced to go bankrupt or close in the case of Mr. W.

So, does this belong in Foo, P&R the section for customer satisfaction posts or does it just need to be closed before the bottles start hitting the chicken wire?
sorry I meant to put that in my sarcasm font. Yeah I think they were trying to change the name and sell it or something but then they had to file for chapter 11. I think itís interesting that anytime I watch old movies and see the Weinstein company logo, I feel a little bit guilty watching a movie produced by that company. So how a company conducts themselves and who runs it affects how I view that company and their products.
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Old 05-19-18, 06:54 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Joe Remi View Post
Well, guy on the internet, my opinion is that this screed against Dahon is ridiculous. That's how opinions work.
i guess I didn’t see this as a screed against Dahon. And that’s probably because I didn’t see the “and why you shouldn’t buy it” part of the title on my phone screen. I thought it was just a list of 10 facts about Dahon. And besides the title, I didn’t feel like the OP was railing against Dahon. Just giving us a list so we can make our own decisions like adults. Like when you see an article that says something like “ten reasons why eating vegetables are better than eating meat”. You can become a vegetarian or you can keep eating meat. Doesn’t mean the article is ridiculous or absurd.
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Old 05-19-18, 09:07 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by phyko View Post


Right. Nobody cares about what the company does or who runs it. because when people found out about harvey weinstein, the company is still thriving today.

Stop calling people naive when you donít know about big business yourself
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/250918
That particular companies financial troubles had nothing at all to do with the bad press of their boss. Do you think that in 2009 when the "restructuring" began that it was some sort of cosmic time leak from today? Look at Volkswagen also, get involved in a world wide headline grabbing scandal, profits shoot up 15%.

Unless it effects the value of the product (or even if it does in VWs case) then consumers wont care. Really its only damaging to a company if their brand becomes really unfashionable but bike companies arent big enough to have that effect, nobody knows what a "dahon" is.

Personally would I buy another dahon?.. Nope. I would not buy any folding bike, too many non standard parts and I never use the folding ability anyway. But if you are looking for a folding bike and take the OP seriously, then what brands can you buy? I guess there are a few that seem backed by good companies and arent just made from junk off the Chinese shelf. Maybe just the Tyrell IVE, Birdy and a few other bespoke brands? But then you are going to have to do your homework on those brands, look into the history of each company, who runs them, where they source parts etc to be ale to tell if you are allowed to like their products or not...
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Old 05-19-18, 10:25 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by kidshibuya View Post
That particular companies financial troubles had nothing at all to do with the bad press of their boss. Do you think that in 2009 when the "restructuring" began that it was some sort of cosmic time leak from today? Look at Volkswagen also, get involved in a world wide headline grabbing scandal, profits shoot up 15%.

Unless it effects the value of the product (or even if it does in VWs case) then consumers wont care. Really its only damaging to a company if their brand becomes really unfashionable but bike companies arent big enough to have that effect, nobody knows what a "dahon" is.

Personally would I buy another dahon?.. Nope. I would not buy any folding bike, too many non standard parts and I never use the folding ability anyway. But if you are looking for a folding bike and take the OP seriously, then what brands can you buy? I guess there are a few that seem backed by good companies and arent just made from junk off the Chinese shelf. Maybe just the Tyrell IVE, Birdy and a few other bespoke brands? But then you are going to have to do your homework on those brands, look into the history of each company, who runs them, where they source parts etc to be ale to tell if you are allowed to like their products or not...
yes you are right that the Weinstein company (TWC) had a restructuring in 2009. But you canít deny that the scandal is what broke the companyís reputation and caused it to close. The president and COO of the company even said so. Because of the scandal, the name of the company is ruined. ďMy opinion is that The Weinstein Company as it sits today, is done. The reality is, in its current form, the name, the brand has been completely torpedoed and destroyed.Ē That is a quote from the president of TWC. See TWC?s David Glasser On His & Company Future after Harvey Weinstein | Deadline

And as for Volkswagen, their sales did dip down because of the emissions scandal. Their sales eventually did go up after they fixed their image, and that is probably the profits you are talking about. But during the scandal, sales and resale value and customer confidence went down. There are many articles supporting this. Just take a look at these two for starters.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...tion/73145740/
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...candal-hurt-vw


you are right that there are people out there who would buy a product regardless if the company does something awful or the boss is a criminal. But there is no denying that there are people who care. Just take a look at the examples above.
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Old 05-19-18, 11:14 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by kidshibuya View Post
  1. don't care
  2. don't care
  3. don't care
  4. don't care
  5. don't care
  6. don't care
  7. don't care
  8. don't care
  9. don't care
  10. don't care
There are so many things wrong with your view. As a consumer Ill buy the best bike that fits what I want out of it, who cares what the company does or who runs it? Apple is a terrible company, everyone still has iPhones for some reason. And you seem quite naÔve about big business, especially manufacturing.

Is there this much faboyism in other sections of this site? I get enough of this crap in PC forums where idoits create "don't by intel", then another mental giant creates a "don't buy AMD" thread. Grow up, get over it.
Oh, do not get pissed off. I prefer buy the product from a decent company who made really good products. Obviously the current Dahon is not such a company. You can check my previous posts that I am a fan of Dahon, but after I knew these facts about it, I am very disappointed and now I have more respects to Tern.
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Old 05-19-18, 11:17 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
On the Dahon wiki page they mention a Macao facility where I believe bikes were assembled for selling there due to it being preferable to assemble in Macao which is similar to Hong Kong in being part of China but also partially independent. Maybe that facility transferred to Tern when they separated? When Tern had the recall on frames it seemed like they were tendering contracts to build them and had a handful of manufacturer's supplying such frames. One of which was obviously very poor quality hence the recall. A quick google gives no indication of a Tern factory anywhere but this isn't unusual, many top brands have no factory or even proper design facilities sometimes and merely order product from the main manufacturer's like fuji-ta.

My impression though is Tern do invest in R&D but outsource their manufacturing, this may change in the future of course. Where as Dahon is more varied with some product outsourced, I suspect the majority but it could be a minority. Looking at their frame production I think I'd rather have their outsourced frames.
WiKi, anyone can edit that so you can't trust it
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Old 05-19-18, 11:36 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by phyko View Post


yes you are right that the Weinstein company (TWC) had a restructuring in 2009. But you canít deny that the scandal is what broke the companyís reputation and caused it to close. The president and COO of the company even said so. Because of the scandal, the name of the company is ruined. ďMy opinion is that The Weinstein Company as it sits today, is done. The reality is, in its current form, the name, the brand has been completely torpedoed and destroyed.Ē That is a quote from the president of TWC. See TWC?s David Glasser On His & Company Future after Harvey Weinstein Deadline

And as for Volkswagen, their sales did dip down because of the emissions scandal. Their sales eventually did go up after they fixed their image, and that is probably the profits you are talking about. But during the scandal, sales and resale value and customer confidence went down. There are many articles supporting this. Just take a look at these two for starters.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...tion/73145740/
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...candal-hurt-vw


you are right that there are people out there who would buy a product regardless if the company does something awful or the boss is a criminal. But there is no denying that there are people who care. Just take a look at the examples above.
Actually read the stories you link to. The first one even says that sales increases by 1% when the scandal broke. The impact was that sales didn't rise as much as predicted. The share price took at hit form the expected fines and their size, but this has nothing to do with consumer sales. Oh and they haven't "fixed their image" lol, they are still regularly the butt of jokes and known for their cheating.

As for Weinstein, the scandal was just what pushed the company over the edge. The final takeover hope fell through and he blamed the scandal (because why take on the debts of a company unless its name is going to make you some money....?). In reality the company was in dire trouble and could not stand on its own. You cant blame the scandal for taking out the company when it needed to be rescued well before the scandal broke.
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Old 05-19-18, 11:41 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by MJBikes99 View Post
Oh, do not get pissed off. I prefer buy the product from a decent company who made really good products. Obviously the current Dahon is not such a company. You can check my previous posts that I am a fan of Dahon, but after I knew these facts about it, I am very disappointed and now I have more respects to Tern.
But the cold hard fact is that you have no clue about Tern and what they are up to. They could be up to all sorts of evil deeds, how would you know? Women in the company might be sex slaves, children might be assembling parts, they might be using a different grade of alloy than they claim etc. You don't know.

Just judge the product.
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Old 05-20-18, 01:30 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by MJBikes99 View Post
WiKi, anyone can edit that so you can't trust it
Anyone can edit it yes but I'd struggle to see their motivation to put in Macao as a assembly location if it wasn't true. Generally I find wiki pages good information often written by people who are close to the information provided. In fact the wiki page looks like it was written by Dahon themselves because contains much marketing nonsense. The first line is;

Dahon is the world's largest manufacturer of folding bicycles
[2] with a two-thirds marketshare in 2006

Dahon doesn't actually manufacture many of its bikes but outsources them and companies like fuji-ta in China make many more folding bikes than Dahon. Then you have the line 2/3rds marketshare of folding bikes in 2006 but where is this, I suspect the US because it certainly isn't the world even if that is its peak sales year. It's all manipulative marketing information meant to impress people and feel safe about their purchase but in reality complete nonsense to put it politely. You could come away from that wiki page feeling manipulated. Brompton sold 8.7m worth of bikes in the UK in 2016 in a folding bike market worth 15-20m so seems hugely successful compared to other brands maybe securing over 50% of market share but then you look at where was surveyed for this statistic and it wasn't the whole market where you can buy bicycles it was basically bicycle dealers including large chains but then you have large sports stores, amazon, ebay, direct selling etc and that figure becomes a farce. I've never seen Brompton use that figure and hopefully they never will but other companies seem happy to try to manipulate customers.

I'd be interested to know what the estimated global market for folding bikes was for 2006 and how many folding bikes Dahon actually manufactured themselves that year and see how their statistics stacks up. Seems like 125 million approx bikes were sold in 2006 and if the world market is similar to the UK market folding bikes make up about 4% so about 5 million bikes of which 2/3rds is about 3.6 million units. Dahon actually sold 290,000 bikes that year but how many did they manufacture themselves and how many were outsourced? On the Dahon wiki page they claim to have a factory in Bulgaria but that factory is maxcom a separate company to Dahon who assemble Dahon bikes so not their factory. Is the same true of other factories elsewhere?

I guess my point is I've developed a complete distrust of Dahon and their marketing information. I really don't believe any of it and when you feel a company has no honesty it has no integrity and then you wonder about the bike quality itself.
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Old 05-20-18, 02:10 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
Anyone can edit it yes but I'd struggle to see their motivation to put in Macao as a assembly location if it wasn't true. Generally I find wiki pages good information often written by people who are close to the information provided. In fact the wiki page looks like it was written by Dahon themselves because contains much marketing nonsense. The first line is;

Dahon is the world's largest manufacturer of folding bicycles
[2] with a two-thirds marketshare in 2006

Dahon doesn't actually manufacture many of its bikes but outsources them and companies like fuji-ta in China make many more folding bikes than Dahon. Then you have the line 2/3rds marketshare of folding bikes in 2006 but where is this, I suspect the US because it certainly isn't the world even if that is its peak sales year. It's all manipulative marketing information meant to impress people and feel safe about their purchase but in reality complete nonsense to put it politely. You could come away from that wiki page feeling manipulated. Brompton sold 8.7m worth of bikes in the UK in 2016 in a folding bike market worth 15-20m so seems hugely successful compared to other brands maybe securing over 50% of market share but then you look at where was surveyed for this statistic and it wasn't the whole market where you can buy bicycles it was basically bicycle dealers including large chains but then you have large sports stores, amazon, ebay, direct selling etc and that figure becomes a farce. I've never seen Brompton use that figure and hopefully they never will but other companies seem happy to try to manipulate customers.

I'd be interested to know what the estimated global market for folding bikes was for 2006 and how many folding bikes Dahon actually manufactured themselves that year and see how their statistics stacks up. Seems like 125 million approx bikes were sold in 2006 and if the world market is similar to the UK market folding bikes make up about 4% so about 5 million bikes of which 2/3rds is about 3.6 million units. Dahon actually sold 290,000 bikes that year but how many did they manufacture themselves and how many were outsourced? On the Dahon wiki page they claim to have a factory in Bulgaria but that factory is maxcom a separate company to Dahon who assemble Dahon bikes so not their factory. Is the same true of other factories elsewhere?

I guess my point is I've developed a complete distrust of Dahon and their marketing information. I really don't believe any of it and when you feel a company has no honesty it has no integrity and then you wonder about the bike quality itself.
I really don't believe any of it and when you feel a company has no honesty it has no integrity and then you wonder about the bike quality itself. I can't agree with you more.

Also I heard that the reason why Tern broke up with Dahon China, was partially because that Joshua think Dahon China was on the wrong way, but the more important reason is that his father had affairs with female employees in mainland China. It was totally unacceptable for Joshua and his mother.
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Old 05-20-18, 03:43 AM
  #23  
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I don't even know if half of the points are true or not.
Some don't matter to me, if its some sort of country bias or "perceived morality" is involved.
So which bike company is a good guy? (the one who made US great again sponsoring that 7x TDF champ and closed up LeMond? )

Little RnD?
Practice of letting a sub-con make the bikes for you?
All that is pretty widespread in the bike business.
Some even just "lock in" the design that their contract manufacturers offer to just badge them as one of their offerings. (esp the lower end offerings)

Made in China?
There are good makers that strive to make a brand out of it and those that make crappy stuff, just like everywhere else.

Poor quality stuff?
A consumer owes it to him/herself to go into a store, check out the stuff, research it on the internet with user reviews and articles.
Poor quality won't get away so easily nowadays w/ the internet.
Anyway, I see Dahon doing very well here in Singapore and Asia as a whole.



Everyone as a consumer can have his/her own justifications for not buying.
I can accept that.
But for me, the reasons above are pretty thin.
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Old 05-20-18, 05:32 AM
  #24  
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Dont buy a Dahon because they outsource to China? What bicycle company doesnt outsource to China?

You would have to boycott 99% of the industry. This has to be the dumbest thread I have ever thread on this forum, or any forum for that matter and doesn't deserve further reply.
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Old 05-20-18, 06:14 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by kidshibuya View Post
Actually read the stories you link to. The first one even says that sales increases by 1% when the scandal broke. The impact was that sales didn't rise as much as predicted. The share price took at hit form the expected fines and their size, but this has nothing to do with consumer sales. Oh and they haven't "fixed their image" lol, they are still regularly the butt of jokes and known for their cheating.

As for Weinstein, the scandal was just what pushed the company over the edge. The final takeover hope fell through and he blamed the scandal (because why take on the debts of a company unless its name is going to make you some money....?). In reality the company was in dire trouble and could not stand on its own. You cant blame the scandal for taking out the company when it needed to be rescued well before the scandal broke.
I am not trying to change your mind. You can think whatever you want.

But since you implied I didn’t read the article.

yes I did read the articles I sent. That 1% rise that you are talking about is part of this quote “Sales of Volkswagen brand vehicles in the U.S. rose 1% in September, compared to the same month a year earlier, The brand badly trailed industry competitors, with overall industry sales up 16% for the month, according to Autodata Corp.”

they arent using the 1% rise to show that it was good. Quite the opposite. They are saying that sales took a hit because other people did a whole lot better. Like me saying I got an “F+“ on my quiz instead of the “F” I got last time, so I must be doing well. Yes, I improved. But if everyone else got As and Bs, so it actually that means I’m not doing as well.

Furthermore, “Volkswagen's emission violations came to light just after mid-September, and look to have affected Volkswagen sales for only the final third of the month.“

The word “affected Volkswagen sales” means, hmmmmm, I don’t know know, I think it means that sales were affected.

Just in case you didn’t get that consumers were affected by the scandal, the article continues to say, “What's more, consumer-sentiment surveys suggest that Volkswagen's image has suffered a serious blow.”

so you can continue to say that sales and consumer sentiment is not affected by scandals, but to me, those articles say that they do. Again, I am not trying to change your mind. You can think whatever you want. I am just trying to show another point of view and the evidence I use to make that view.



Last edited by phyko; 05-20-18 at 06:17 AM.
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