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24" advocates

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Old 06-06-18, 05:02 PM
  #26  
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There is a Dahon "Stow Bag XL" which fits 24" bikes like the IOS D9/S9 bikes. It is just nominally bigger than the standard Stow bag and should let you get it onto transit without much notice.

If you want to fit in a suitcase, better get the right box. Seems difficult somehow but doable.
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Old 06-09-18, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiksetz View Post
I don't have a folder yet, but I'm looking at getting a 24" Tern Node D8/16 or a Tern 20" Link D8 (only because it looks like it would be easier to fly with).

With the 24" do you think it would be possible to only store the folded frame and tires (removed obviously) in the S&S backpack case? I'm thinking maybe I can carry other components in a duffle bag carry on or another suitcase. I'm fortunate enough I get one bag checked in for free on Delta. I wouldn't mind paying a checked bag fee as opposed to an oversized luggage or bicycle fee.
I can't say, it takes a lot of work for me to get my Airnimal Joey into the S&S case, I am not familiar with the models you cited.
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Old 06-11-18, 11:48 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Quiksetz View Post
I don't have a folder yet, but I'm looking at getting a 24" Tern Node D8/16 or a Tern 20" Link D8 (only because it looks like it would be easier to fly with).

With the 24" do you think it would be possible to only store the folded frame and tires (removed obviously) in the S&S backpack case? I'm thinking maybe I can carry other components in a duffle bag carry on or another suitcase. I'm fortunate enough I get one bag checked in for free on Delta. I wouldn't mind paying a checked bag fee as opposed to an oversized luggage or bicycle fee.
I have a S & S backpack. You might be able to squeeze the Link D8 with some parts removed; rack, fenders, etc. Don't think you''l be able to fit the Node with it's bigger tires.
Terns' handle bars fold outside; making dimensions a bit bigger than most new Dahons. Newer Dahons' handlebars fold inside; making the final size smaller. Here's a Dahon
Speed Uno(20 inch wheels); it fit just enough in the bag. I just removed the seatpost:

Dahon Speed Uno in S & S Backpack by 1nterceptor, on Flickr
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Old 06-24-18, 11:48 AM
  #29  
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Packing my 24 inch folder-

Heading to Dallas tomorrow so I took my time to document the packing. Released the brakes and flipped it upside down. Removed the quick release pedals and hubs. Removed the wheel and installed my park tools dummy hub.

Loosened handlebar and removed the fork. I use gear ties to keep the bearings in place on the headtube and to hold bubble wrap on exposed surfaces. Folded frame and set the handlebar next to the rear wheel, which is sprocket down.

Placed the removed seat/seatpost between the frame and fork alongside it. I prefer dense foam to position and protect the components. Added bike cleats, 2 spare tubes, pump, and tools.

All told I am under 43 pounds and could roll and add clothing if I wanted to get me closer to the 50 pound limit.
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Old 07-03-18, 01:33 PM
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Do you have to worry people will throw your luggage around, the luggage man will damage the bike in the luggage?

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Old 07-03-18, 02:15 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
Do you have to worry people will throw your luggage around, the luggage man will damage the bike in the luggage?
I was a little concerned about the derailleur remaining on the frame, but two trips to Texas in a month and so far so good. My Vybe has been on at least 12 trips, also without damage.

I prefer using dense wraparound foam to separate and insulate the fork and frame. Nothing beats having a bike dialed into you over renting. Heading to San Francisco next week with both Dahons so that will be a bigger challenge, since I am on my own on the assembly/disassembly

I did have my 1st flat in Dallas but happy to report that the 24 inch tire was easy to work with.
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Old 07-04-18, 09:07 PM
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To the OP's point, I do think that larger folding bikes can fill a niche in the mostly recreational US market. I bought my first "real" bike - a road bike 7 years ago, and I've never really been happy with it. As a result, I've rarely used it. I've been thinking about trading it in for a folding bike with 24" wheels (I'm leaning towards a Tern Node D8). This appeals to me for several reasons:

1. I recently relocated to an area that is a lot more bike-friendly than where I used to live, but the best roads and trails aren't very close to me. Assuming I only have 2-3 hours for recreational riding, I'd hate to spend half of that smelling car exhaust on bad roads just to get to the good parts.

2. I don't have room for a full sized bike in our little apartment, but I've got the perfect little corner for a folder.

3. I'm a lot more likely to get a ride in if I go straight from work rather than going home first. I have a small car with no room for a full-sized bike inside, and definitely don't want to leave a bike on a bike rack all day. If I can fit a folder in my trunk, I can bike straight from work.

4. The roads around here are pretty bad, and I've already crashed once due to skinny road tires on bad pavement. I'd feel a lot more comfortable on wider tires.

5. The older I get, the more I want a comfortable seat and more upright riding position.


I recently read this article, which articulated my struggles with road riding better than I ever could. Obviously, many cyclists don't have all these issues, or are able to overcome them in different ways. I'm just glad that larger folding bikes are available as a solution for many of us.
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Old 07-05-18, 12:04 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
To the OP's point, I do think that larger folding bikes can fill a niche in the mostly recreational US market. I bought my first "real" bike - a road bike 7 years ago, and I've never really been happy with it. As a result, I've rarely used it. I've been thinking about trading it in for a folding bike with 24" wheels (I'm leaning towards a Tern Node D8). This appeals to me for several reasons:

1. I recently relocated to an area that is a lot more bike-friendly than where I used to live, but the best roads and trails aren't very close to me. Assuming I only have 2-3 hours for recreational riding, I'd hate to spend half of that smelling car exhaust on bad roads just to get to the good parts.

2. I don't have room for a full sized bike in our little apartment, but I've got the perfect little corner for a folder.

3. I'm a lot more likely to get a ride in if I go straight from work rather than going home first. I have a small car with no room for a full-sized bike inside, and definitely don't want to leave a bike on a bike rack all day. If I can fit a folder in my trunk, I can bike straight from work.

4. The roads around here are pretty bad, and I've already crashed once due to skinny road tires on bad pavement. I'd feel a lot more comfortable on wider tires.

5. The older I get, the more I want a comfortable seat and more upright riding position.


I recently read this article, which articulated my struggles with road riding better than I ever could. Obviously, many cyclists don't have all these issues, or are able to overcome them in different ways. I'm just glad that larger folding bikes are available as a solution for many of us.
Your needs and concerns are all valid, but none of them necessarily require 24" wheels. You could be well served by an existing 451er with suspension, a 406er with 50mm (2.0") wide tires or a 26"er. Nothing in your post says to me 24".
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Old 07-05-18, 01:15 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Your needs and concerns are all valid, but none of them necessarily require 24" wheels. You could be well served by an existing 451er with suspension, a 406er with 50mm (2.0") wide tires or a 26"er. Nothing in your post says to me 24".
Good point, but IMO the original question seemed to be "Why don't manufacturers offer more folders with wheels greater than 20"?" It seems like many people who buy folders limit themselves to wheels that are 20" or smaller for multi-modal transportation - to fit on trains, in luggage, under their desks, etc. Unfortunately, multimodal transportation isn't where it ought to be here in the US, so folders aren't as common. My point was that many people (such as myself) might want a folder for reasons other than transportation, and might have good reasons to consider larger wheel sizes.

I am still considering other wheel sizes (like the Montague 26" bikes). I haven't ruled out 20" folders either, I just don't personally have a good reason to need 20" wheels. For example, Tern makes many bikes that are nearly identical except for the wheel size, at virtually the same price. I've measured my car's trunk space & I could fit a 20" or 24" bike in there, but 26" might be pushing it. Many people have said that larger wheels react better to potholes and such, so I don't see any reason to downsize to 20" if I can find a bike in 24" that works just as well.
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Old 07-05-18, 12:23 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
Good point, but IMO the original question seemed to be "Why don't manufacturers offer more folders with wheels greater than 20"?"
And the answer is still obvious: Because there are 24" folders already on the market and people do not buy them in relevant amounts. And they are a compromise regarding the folded size (which is the key element for any folder - if size does not matter at all you do not need a folder). So it is clear that any manufacturer going down the 24" road attracts only a small segment of a already small segment (folders) in the bike market. To fold smaller than necessary for the purpose does no damage (this may be the case for some 20" and 16" folders),. To fold bigger (or less comfortably) than necessary is a deal breaker (this is the case for some 20" folders and most of the bigger wheeled folders for most people). The Helix may become a game-changer here regarding 24" bikes (if it ever hits the streets) but though being cheap for what it offers it costs way beyond what Joe Average is willing to spend on a folding bike.

Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
My point was that many people (such as myself) might want a folder for reasons other than transportation, and might have good reasons to consider larger wheel sizes.
To be honest: your reasons to want a folder are (as you outlined some postings earlier) exactly the same than those of most other people: A smaller footprint for transport and storage. You have mentioned no objective reasons against 406 wheels other than personal taste (which may be a perfect reason) - so objectively there's no reason for you to need bigger wheels (rather than want them, possibly based on prejudices).
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Old 07-05-18, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by berlinonaut View Post

To be honest: your reasons to want a folder are (as you outlined some postings earlier) exactly the same than those of most other people: A smaller footprint for transport and storage. You have mentioned no objective reasons against 406 wheels other than personal taste (which may be a perfect reason) - so objectively there's no reason for you to need bigger wheels (rather than want them, possibly based on prejudices).
I'll admit that I like the looks of the 24" wheels better. However, from what may other people have said, 24" wheels will absorb cracks, potholes, etc. better than a 20" wheel will. This makes sense, as the wheel diameter is larger & it won't sink as far down into any holes or ruts. Do you disagree?
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Old 07-05-18, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
I'll admit that I like the looks of the 24" wheels better. However, from what may other people have said, 24" wheels will absorb cracks, potholes, etc. better than a 20" wheel will. This makes sense, as the wheel diameter is larger & it won't sink as far down into any holes or ruts. Do you disagree?
Neither agree nor disagree - it depends. I.e. I own an Airnmal Joey, equipped with 40mm/507 Kenda Kwest tires. This rolls clearly better over rough terrain or cobblestones than my 349 Brompton or a Tern Link 20"-folder. Or a 406 Bike Friday Pocket Lama with Marathons on it. But as I run it with high pressure (>6 Bar) in the tires it rolls better but not necessarily very comfy. In comparison my Bernds folder with 50/406 Big Apples on it runs more comfy as I currently run the Big Apples with 3 Bar (which is already a bit on the high side for them). It does however compensate deeper holes minimally worse than the Airnimal, but still very very well and clearly well enough. And then there's the Moulton TSR with 40/406 Marathon Racers at 6 Bar. It is at least as comfy as the Bernds but by far faster than any of my other bikes. And it does have less issues with potholes as it is suspended.

Conclusio: Wheel size is just one out of many factors when it comes to rolling and comfort. Depending on all those factors combined a 24" wheel may be more comfy than a 20" or the other way round. In many cases other factors may in sum overrule the size of the wheel, in almost all cases they may be able to do it when setting them purposefully.

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Old 07-05-18, 05:54 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by berlinonaut View Post
Neither agree nor disagree - it depends. I.e. I own an Airnmal Joey, equipped with 40mm/507 Kenda Kwest tires. This rolls clearly better over rough terrain or cobblestones than my 349 Brompton or a Tern Link 20"-folder. Or a 406 Bike Friday Pocket Lama with Marathons on it. But as I run it with high pressure (>6 Bar) in the tires it rolls better but not necessarily very comfy. In comparison my Bernds folder with 50/406 Big Apples on it runs more comfy as I currently run the Big Apples with 3 Bar (which is already a bit on the high side for them). It does however compensate deeper holes minimally worse than the Airnimal, but still very very well and clearly well enough. And then there's the Moulton TSR with 40/406 Marathon Racers at 6 Bar. It is at least as comfy as the Bernds but by far faster than any of my other bikes. And it does have less issues with potholes as it is suspended.

Conclusio: Wheel size is just one out of many factors when it comes to rolling and comfort. Depending on all those factors combined a 24" wheel may be more comfy than a 20" or the other way round. In many cases other factors may in sum overrule the size of the wheel, in almost all cases they may be able to do it when setting them purposefully.
Thanks for the advice. I'm strongly leaning towards Tern bikes - aside from the good reviews and specs, they're the only ones I've been able to test ride. I tried the 20" Link D8, and my main thought was "This is different, but I think I could get used to it." When I rode the Node 24", my first thought was "This is the best bike I've ever ridden!" These bikes are basically identical in every way, even the same Schwalbe Big Apples tires), so the only real difference was the wheel size.

So, I'm leaning towards the Node. However, the Link is a bit cheaper, and it would be more portable if I do decide to travel with it (which doesn't seem very likely as of now). I'll definitely have to think about it some more, but I'm glad I have both options.
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Old 07-05-18, 06:27 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
I'll admit that I like the looks of the 24" wheels better. However, from what may other people have said, 24" wheels will absorb cracks, potholes, etc. better than a 20" wheel will. This makes sense, as the wheel diameter is larger & it won't sink as far down into any holes or ruts.
Sure, but the effect is pretty small and can be largely compensated by choosing slightly wider tires. On my 700c bike I generally run 25mm tires whereas on my 20" (451mm bsd) folder I have 32mm tires for about the same level of comfort on typical roads. I've ridden many century rides and fairly fast club rides on the folder and it's not much different than the equivalent rides on my 700c bikes.

But if I just want to fit a bike into the fairly small trunk of my car I almost always just pop the wheels off a 700c bike. Makes for an easy fit in my Corolla without even having to fold the rear seat. In the Camry trunk I can put two 700c bikes and their wheels while keeping the back seat up. The real plus of the folder is that it lets me take a bike along on vacation trips involving air travel at either no or only minimal extra cost and that it allows for convenient one-way bike tours with the other part of the trip on some form of transit (many of which are much more convenient with a folder vs. a regular bike).
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Old 07-05-18, 06:27 PM
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The 'cush' factor...

The 'cush' factor--how cushy a ride a tire will give--is a function of tire size, width and pressure. Mechanically, physically a bigger rim/tire affords a greater angle of attack, smoothing out bumps. But cush will be eroded if it is running a narrow tire at high pressure. Bigger rim size is mot always cushier. An example is my 406er running 42mm-wide tires vs. my 451er running 37mm tires. The former is still cushier, despite being smaller. Why? Because the 42mm tire is not only wider, but also has a higher profile, and, due to that, it can be run at lower pressure. So, it's not as simple as chosing the larger rim size.
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Old 07-05-18, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
The 'cush' factor--how cushy a ride a tire will give--is a function of tire size, width and pressure. Mechanically, physically a bigger rim/tire affords a greater angle of attack, smoothing out bumps. But cush will be eroded if it is running a narrow tire at high pressure. Bigger rim size is mot always cushier. An example is my 406er running 42mm-wide tires vs. my 451er running 37mm tires. The former is still cushier, despite being smaller. Why? Because the 42mm tire is not only wider, but also has a higher profile, and, due to that, it can be run at lower pressure. So, it's not as simple as chosing the larger rim size.
Suppleness of the tires are even more important element than the width, that said, I agree with the above.
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Old 07-05-18, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta View Post
Suppleness of the tires are even more important element than the width, that said, I agree with the above.
​​​​​​Hmmm...maybe...the thing here is that we're getting into subjectivities, whereas width is a direct component of volume which in turn governs pressure. Confirmation bias must be taken into account with 'supple' tires, given that they tend to be costly, and enjoy a high prestige/connoisseur factor. Plus suppleness can come at the cost of sidewall toughness. I would not discount 'suppleness', but I would mot be so categorical either. I would categorize 'suppleness' as a second-order (in the mathematical sense) factor. My scientific gut is that suppleness is a factor in high pressure regimes, but decreases in importance in lower pressures.

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Old 07-05-18, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
​​​​​​Hmmm...maybe...the thing here is that we're getting into subjectivities, whereas width is a direct component of volume which in turn governs pressure. Confirmation bias must be taken into account with 'supple' tires, given that they tend to be costly, and enjoy a high prestige/connoisseur factor. Plus suppleness can come at the cost of sidewall toughness. I would not discount 'suppleness', but I would mot be so categorical either. I would categorize 'suppleness' as a second-order (in the mathematical sense) factor. My scientific gut is that suppleness is a factor in high pressure regimes, but decreases in importance in lower pressures.
No, suppleness is not correlated to high price. Here, USA, Primo Comets, Panaracer Paselas and more are relatively cheap and ride better than the best of Schwalbe.
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Old 07-05-18, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta View Post
No, suppleness is not correlated to high price. Here, USA, Primo Comets, Panaracer Paselas and more are relatively cheap and ride better than the best of Schwalbe.
Says you....anyone can pull a tire out of a hat and say it is 'supple'. if we are going about this in a scientific way, how do we know the suppleness that you ascribe to those tires is real? And if it is real, how much of it is there?

Against all of Schwalbe's offerings? wow, again, you are being categorical lacking nuance, religious about this...

Over & out.

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Old 07-06-18, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Says you....anyone can pull a tire out of a hat and say it is 'supple'. if we are going about this in a scientific way, how do we know the suppleness that you ascribe to those tires is real? And if it is real, how much of it is there?

Against all of Schwalbe's offerings? wow, again, you are being categorical lacking nuance, religious about this...

Over & out.
Why not suggest one of Schwalbe's offering that is common folder size that is more supple than a Primo Comet. Extra points for a reasonably priced 16x349.

What I take exception to in your statements related to tires is your stating that width is so important. Growing up, in the USA we only had wide tire bikes, and they were slow and the tire flexing used up a lot of energy. (Is this too religious?)

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Old 07-10-18, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
​​​​​​Hmmm...maybe...the thing here is that we're getting into subjectivities, whereas width is a direct component of volume which in turn governs pressure. Confirmation bias must be taken into account with 'supple' tires, given that they tend to be costly, and enjoy a high prestige/connoisseur factor. Plus suppleness can come at the cost of sidewall toughness. I would not discount 'suppleness', but I would mot be so categorical either. I would categorize 'suppleness' as a second-order (in the mathematical sense) factor. My scientific gut is that suppleness is a factor in high pressure regimes, but decreases in importance in lower pressures.
So taking this back to the original post - 20" vs 24" wheels - if you were to take two bikes from the same brand with the same specs and the same exact tires, how much of a difference would 20" vs 24" wheels make?

The OP and I were both considering the Tern Link (20") vs Tern Node (24") versions of the same bike. As I mentioned previously, the 24" felt more stable in my (admittedly brief) test ride. Some people say that a 20" folder feels strange at first, but one gets used to it.

That point reminds me of car reviews, where the reviewers always make a huge point about the arrangement of switches and stuff. Sure, if you're just getting into any car for the first time, it's going to feel and drive differently than you're used to. But I've never known anyone who couldn't get used to the controls of their new car after a very short period of time.

Still... if one doesn't consider the 20" wheel size to be a benefit (as I don't), and one can put whatever tires one wants on 2 different size wheels for basically the same price, why not go with the one you happen to like better at first?

I say this because I just placed an order for a Node yesterday, but I found out it's on backorder for 2 weeks. The Link version of the same bike is currently available, but I'm still 90% sure I want to wait on the Node.
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Old 07-10-18, 05:26 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
So taking this back to the original post - 20" vs 24" wheels - if you were to take two bikes from the same brand with the same specs and the same exact tires, how much of a difference would 20" vs 24" wheels make?

The OP and I were both considering the Tern Link (20") vs Tern Node (24") versions of the same bike. As I mentioned previously, the 24" felt more stable in my (admittedly brief) test ride. Some people say that a 20" folder feels strange at first, but one gets used to it.

That point reminds me of car reviews, where the reviewers always make a huge point about the arrangement of switches and stuff. Sure, if you're just getting into any car for the first time, it's going to feel and drive differently than you're used to. But I've never known anyone who couldn't get used to the controls of their new car after a very short period of time.

Still... if one doesn't consider the 20" wheel size to be a benefit (as I don't), and one can put whatever tires one wants on 2 different size wheels for basically the same price, why not go with the one you happen to like better at first?

I say this because I just placed an order for a Node yesterday, but I found out it's on backorder for 2 weeks. The Link version of the same bike is currently available, but I'm still 90% sure I want to wait on the Node.
The short answer is, i don't know because i have never ridden 24".

To answer your questions we need to specify sizes. 20" comes in two main flavors, 406 which has tires from skinny Duranos to balloon tires, and 451 which tops out at 37mm tires. This means that 406 can be more cushy than 451 because you can run fatter tires at lower pressure. 24" has two main sizes, 507 and 540, the former being lower pressure/fatter tire while the latter tends to skinnier higher pressure tires. Which ones are we comparing?

All in all, my gut is that the two 24" sizes will be cushier.

Now, a 540 rim is only 19mm (3/4") smaller in diameter than 559 (26"). I personally would never go for 540 prefering the marginally bigger 559 in all cases. 507? Maybe. 540? No. I would instead go for 559.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
The short answer is, i don't know because i have never ridden 24".

To answer your questions we need to specify sizes. 20" comes in two main flavors, 406 which has tires from skinny Duranos to balloon tires, and 451 which tops out at 37mm tires. This means that 406 can be more cushy than 451 because you can run fatter tires at lower pressure. 24" has two main sizes, 507 and 540, the former being lower pressure/fatter tire while the latter tends to skinnier higher pressure tires. Which ones are we comparing?

All in all, my gut is that the two 24" sizes will be cushier.

Now, a 540 rim is only 19mm (3/4") smaller in diameter than 559 (26"). I personally would never go for 540 prefering the marginally bigger 559 in all cases. 507? Maybe. 540? No. I would instead go for 559.
The Link comes with 50-406 Schwalbe Big Apples vs 50-507 for the Node.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DP Roberts View Post
The Link comes with 50-406 Schwalbe Big Apples vs 50-507 for the Node.
Based on your stated preferences it seems the Node is the bike for you. For sure 50-507 will be cushier than 50-406.

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Old 07-14-18, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by berlinonaut View Post
Neither agree nor disagree - it depends. I.e. I own an Airnmal Joey, equipped with 40mm/507 Kenda Kwest tires. This rolls clearly better over rough terrain or cobblestones than my 349 Brompton or a Tern Link 20"-folder. Or a 406 Bike Friday Pocket Lama with Marathons on it. But as I run it with high pressure (>6 Bar) in the tires it rolls better but not necessarily very comfy.....
In April I had my Joey on a week long trip on very rough pavement. Running older (discontinued size) Schwalbe Marathons in 507X40 (24X1.5) size. First day I had between 55 and 60 psi (~4 bars) in my front tire. My hands took a beating from the rough road, my GPS mounted on the handlebars also had trouble from the vibration. Second day, dropped my front tire pressure to between 40 and 45 psi (~3 bars). I rode just as fast as the day before but the softer ride was much more comfortable on the hands, my GPS quit protesting too. Rode the rest of the trip at that low pressure.

My discomfort was all related to the vibration on the front, not the rear tire. I did not drop rear pressure, I think it was about 75 to 80 psi (~5.5 bars).
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