sjanzeir

Would the 20x1.6 Tioga Fastr X Blk Lbl make a viable alternative to the now-discontinued Schwalbe Marathon Supreme of the same size?

Abu Mahendra

The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme 42-406 folding has very good durability and puncture protection. I've been riding them since 9/16, and have yet to suffer a puncture or flat tire. For me, it is the top all-around tire. Not too wide, not too narrow, not too heavy with durability, rolling resistance and puncture protection worthy of the Marathon Supreme moniker. Hard to see how anyone but Schwalbe (or Continental) can top that.

sjanzeir

I, like you, have been running the factory pair since 10/16, and I do agree that the tire is about near-perfect as a tire can get. Since then, I've probably had one or two punctures. In fact, I like the tire so much that I've taken the somewhat expensive step of future-proofing myself with a pair of spares - probably the last pair the vendor had in stock.

Which brings us on to the fact that the tire has been discontinued, with no apparent direct same-size replacement from Schwalbe in sight. It would seem that the only options for a quality replacement from the same manufacturer is to either size down to 1.50 or size up to 1.75. Continental don't even offer 406 tires altogether. Hence my question about the Tioga.

foldingdroid

How about this one? Schwalbe Citizen Active Wired Tire - 20x1.60 inch - 2017 - Black-Reflex

Abu Mahendra

oh, i've got the folding ones at 325 grams apiece and about $30/pair. I stocked up too. Got two pairs in the parts bin, plus the ones on a bike.

Look, Schwalbe makes the touring tires par excellence: Marathon Supreme, Almotion, Mondial. I would not stray from Schwalbe. Marathon Racers are still available in 406. I would look top those.

sjanzeir

(Emphasis mine.)

A bit of a conundrum here - would you go with the Citizen Active and stick with the same size, or would you go with the Racer and "size down" to 1.50?

Abu Mahendra

Based on Schwalbe's ratings of Rolling, Road Grip, Off-road Grip, Protection and Durability, the Marathon Racer is the superior tire.


Panaracer also makes good tires. You could look to the 37-406 Pasela tire. Paselas are workhorses.

sjanzeir

I've found a German vendor would ship a pair of Citizen Actives directly to my door for €36 (~$45 in today's rate,) so that ought to rule out the Tiogas - and everything else, for that matter. But, after all is said and done, it might be cheap for a reason, even if it's a Schwalbe. Could it possibly be better than the Tioga, which costs more than twice as much? Have to buy before I try!

So, seeing as how there seems to be no shortage of love for the Supreme, how come Schwalbe discontinued our size?

Abu Mahendra

Because no one questions the received wisdom that touring can and should be done only on 559 wheels and on 'touring' bikes. We had a thread arguing that point recently. Supposedly one should not tour on 622 wheels either. No worries, though, I also managed to snag a pair of 37-622 folding Marathon Supremes v.1 at a reasonable price.


The other reason may be that the general public thinks of folders are cheapos undeserving of pricier, higher quality disposables. Marathon Supremes are not cheap even in the best of circumstances.

sjanzeir

I've been questioning the whole wisdom behind full-sized wheels ever since I started riding small-wheelers again (10/16) - so much so, in fact, that I'm trying to move my last full-sized bike due to lack of usage! I just don't think that anything bigger than 20 inches is necessary. The fact that the perceptions of the many dictate what's available to the few (small-wheeler riders) is just a shame, and something that we just have to deal with somehow.

Abu Mahendra

I would not go that far. There are still mechanical advantages to bigger wheels. another unappreciated benefit of bigger wheels is that frames can accomodate different geometries and sizes. Horses for courses.

sjanzeir

You're right. I should've worded myself better. What I wanted to say was that I, for the veritably FREDdish kind of riding that I do, just don't find any real advantage in anything bigger than 20"/406. Which is to say that 20"/406/(briefly)451 is where I found my groove. I've always found everything from 26" upwards rather awkward and cumbersome to handle, and nowhere near as nimble.

Or maybe it's just the kid in me that never grew out of that blue BMX with the checkered pads and (probably knockoff - can't remember) Oakley grips.

That, and the fact that I could easily find a 406 tire and tube (brand/quality notwithstanding) at any corner shop in an emergency, is what seals the deal for me.

Before this gets too dark, though, how about those Tiogas?

Abu Mahendra

...DTH, Grifter or Torch first.

sjanzeir

Hmmmm
That x1.85 Grifter just feels right!

Bonzo Banana

Are BMX tyres also suitable. You see some manufacturers who don't do a touring/commuting 20" tyre in their range but offer some quite impressive BMX tyres like the Kenda Konversion for example, very strong, heavy and capable of very high pressure. Just wondering what issues using a BMX tyre would cause? Kenda are the actual manufacturer behind many tyre brands (mainly actual bike brand tyres). Schwalbe are manufactured by PT Hung A and my experience of Schwalbe hasn't been that great compared to Kenda and that was 26" Schwalbe Marathons although we are talking over 10 years ago and I can't remember the exact model but with my ample frame on the wear rate was very high and they were a long way from puncture resistant. I replaced with Kenda's and they just seemed much better although can't for the life of me remember the Kenda model.

Abu Mahendra

...which are originally BMX tires.

Schwalbe offers tens of different Marathon tires, some
now discontinued, some improved in their second, third generations . You would need to compare weight vs. weight, and price vs. price. For all we know your Schwalbes were the cheaper, lighter Marathons while the Kendas were super tough, super stiff and heavy clunkers. You know, apples vs. apples.

Bonzo Banana

Probably very fair points. I didn't actually realise there were so many Marathon models. On pricing the Kenda's were much cheaper but on weight I've a feeling you are right and the Kenda's were a bit heavier.

Still curious though about whether BMX tyres are suitable and what issues they may bring up in comparison to tyres marketed as commuting or touring tyres.

My bicycles4u paris explorer actually came with Kenda BMX tyres I think fitted. Kenda Karumba tyres.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150202...paris-explorer

sjanzeir

I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to break this discussion down into two elements:

- A BMX tire replacing a "touring" tire on a folding bike (which, obviously, is not a BMX.)
- The "Schwalbe > Everything Else" (clearly advocated by Abu Mahendra.)

We get that the folding bike community is a very small niche compared to the BMX community. Historically, the earliest folding bikes and junior cruisers may have standardized the 20" tire/wheel size, but it was the advent - and subsequent explosion - of the BMX genre of riding (there's something awful about the word "Cycling!" Help me out here!) that popularized it. The later growth in interest and popularity of folding bikes in crowded, cramped urban environments - powered, to an extent, by the success of Dahon as a purpose-specific mass producer - had to follow the lead of the much larger, and much more influential, BMX community when it came to tire choices.

Hence the underlying point of this thread. In my OP, I was asking whether I could go wrong fitting a pair of Tioga Fastrs - a purpose-built BMX tire - on my Speed - a steel folding bike with somewhat aggressive geometry. The main clincher (no pun intended) for this Tioga is that it comes in the same size as the factory Marathon Supreme, the somewhat rare 20x1.60. Abu Mahendra strongly argued against it, but I'm still not sure what his argument against the Tioga was based upon: because it's a BMX-specific tire, or because it's not a Schwalbe. That's for him to elaborate on.

Which brings me on to the bigger question: are BMX-focused tires necessarily - or perhaps inherently, if you will - unsuitable for A-to-B/recreational folding bikes?

My other folding bike, a Vybe D7, probably would say no. In fact, the whole reason I bought that one, with its factory 20x2.10 Kenda Kraniums, was because it had a certain BMX-like feel to it that took me back 30 years. A little egregious, given that I would've been perfectly fine with the Speed D8 alone, but there you go.

As for the other part of the discussion - Schwalbe trumps (again, no pun intended) everything else - let me ask this: Is the aforementioned Tioga so drastically inferior to the Supreme that you wouldn't put it on a non-BMX bike to save your life? Let's say you're a hundred miles from home on your folding bike and you lost a tire for whatever reason, and the bike shop you walked over to just had this Tioga in stock. Would you mount it and pedal back home like you had intended when you left, or would you just fold the bike and hitch a ride home because the Tioga sucks just that much?

Abu Mahendra

The answer to many questions raised here is that we/i don't directly know. Therefore, in the absence of direct evidence, we/i infer. I did not argue against the Tiogas, but rather for Marathons.

I am not a Schwalbe-über-alles guy. I have advised on this here forum and channel--and caught flak for it--eschewing the popular Schwalbe Big Apples for Maxxis offerings such as the DTH and Torch because the latter tend to be lighter. I actually put my $ where my mouth is. In building my bambu 26er bike that calls for a fat-ish slick/semi-slick i passed over the BA in favor of the Maxxis DTH. Here they are, the 26x2.30 DTHs which are lighter than the porkier BA.


No, of course not. I would buy and use the Tiogas.

Schwinnsta

I like the subject so I will add what little I can. I do not have a good opinion of Schwalbe. In 20 inch tires I had Marathons on a Raleigh Twenty. Horrible, not as bad as riding thru sand, but required more effort. On a Moulton I once owned, an APB, came to me with Marathon Racers. These were good enough that I never changed them out. On my 26" mtn bike I have had liked in this order Big Apples, Kojack, Pasela's and Compass. Each brand was a step up over the last. I give Pasela's the best buy award, but Compass is a half step nicer. I like supple. On my Brompton I swapped out the original tires, I think Brompton green or some such for Primo Comets, big improvement. I like supple, I drive on city streets and I will put up with an occasional puncture for the better performance and comfort. I plan to try Orange Seal in my tubes, but have not done so yet.

Abu Mahendra

...but, heck, at those prices, they better be!

There's Marathons, and there's Marathons. On a Schwalbe website, i see thirteen different tires with the Marathon name. I am sure among those thirteen there are some real dogs that i would not deign to buy.

sjanzeir

Since Abu Mahendra mentioned the 20x1.5 Marathon Racer, it just so happened that a pair of it came with my Mu D8.

I can tell you with certainty that when it comes to rolling resistance, they can't hold a candle to the Supremes - to the order of having to torque over one gear lower on the same surfaces just to get over the extra drag. I have to pump them up to at least 80R/75F psi (maximum recommended is 85 psi) to get something close to the rolling resistance of the Supremes at 70R/65F psi - at which point what precious little suppleness they had is all but gone.

Since both the Mu and the Speed have identical wheelsets and rear cassettes, I swapped the Racers over onto the Speed, since its chromoly frame helps take the edge of off their high-pressure harshness somewhat. The more supple Supremes run that much nicer under the Mu's more brittle aluminum frame.

The bottom line is that it's just unfortunate that the Supreme had been discontinued in the 406 size, wuth no apparent, viable alternative in sight for folding bike riders who don't want a strictly BMX tire.

fietsbob

Marathon green guard in 1.5" wide good enough? have to be a folding tire?

sjanzeir

Folding or rigid bead - either is fine. I'd just rather not ride something that feels like hardened, already-chewed gum on asphalt/bitumen.