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Looking for new folding bike for under $2000.

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Looking for new folding bike for under $2000.

Old 05-15-19, 09:47 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by marfar View Post
HI berlinonaut,

Your reply hits a lot of points that we (I'm the wife going on the trip) have been discussing. I do think we need to give the Brompton more of a chance, and I am curious about the P-model. We saw one but only tried the other options.

Having said that, I'm wondering if you (or others here) might be able to guide us based on the infrastructure of the places we will be visiting. We will go from Copenhagen - Hamburg - Amsterdam - Brussels - London. Given the amazing infrastructure of Berlin (biked there for a week last year), I'm assuming most of the points between these places will be amazingly bike-pathed as well? If this is the case, I think we need to spend a bit more time feeling out the Brompton because we will be folding it for our Airbnbs and for the buses or trains if we choose to explore by one of those.

Thank you all for your help with this. We will most likely be buying the bikes in the U.S., but we are open to working with someone in Denmark as well.
BTW, when I saw your travel destinations, I got so green with jealousy! Please consider coming back after the trip and telling us about it.
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Old 05-15-19, 10:59 AM
  #27  
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Can you find my bike? My pakiT @ my dentist's office.
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
I thought the pakit and the tikit folded (or in the case of the pakit, disassembled) to about the same size?

One would reverse the front wheel on the pakiT quick fold to save about 4 inches (it is not reversed in the tikit picture above). I believe it is more or less the same length as the tikit (depending on frame size of course) but the width is narrower slightly. It is much lighter however, because it doesn't incorporate the folding stem hinge system. I forgot about the Curl - it's not as attractive imo as the Brompton (don't like the angular hump) but the added gearing and complete adjustability are definitely improvements over the B. However, I have never had a problem stashing my pakiT indoors in any establishment.

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Old 05-15-19, 01:29 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
One would reverse the front wheel on the pakiT quick fold to save about 4 inches (it is not reversed in the tikit picture above).
Interesting, your diagram (and the bikefriday website) list the pakiT folded @ 38" length. Adding 4 inches gets us to 42" for the tikit. But...my medium frame size tikit measures 35" nose to tail folded.

Note: just so no one is confused, reversing the front wheel on the tikit creates this mess of a non-retained, non-rolling fold ▼




The Brompton (& Curl) fold put the drive train to the interior of the fold, the pakiT to the exterior I believe?

The Brompton can be rolled folded on those tiny wheels (not great on cobblestones and you still have to carry up steps); the pakiT can be rolled on its front wheel.


Yep, but the Brompton/Curl supports its own weight during folded roll while the tikit/pakiT folded-roll 'wheelbarrow' method has the person support ~50% of the bike's weight 100% of the time.

Pay your money, make your choice.

Last edited by tcs; 05-15-19 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 05-15-19, 01:37 PM
  #29  
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The pakiT does not bowl out like the tikit when you reverse the front wheel; it is quite compact. Since the tikit is no longer available, it's just confusing to mention anyway. And, yes, one does have to hold the pakiT up to roll on the front wheel. Personally at less than 19lbs I do not find this a problem at all and I'm an old lady, lol. I'd rather help push 19lbs than roll 26+lbs up to a set of steps and have to carry it And, yes, the pakiT drive train is on the outside - but you have the option of belt drive with a pakiT which renders the inside fold immaterial

Last edited by linberl; 05-15-19 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 05-15-19, 02:13 PM
  #30  
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Old 05-15-19, 03:02 PM
  #31  
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Tikit's unique offering; once folded , you have a handle on the back ,
and it rolls on its front wheel , holding that handle..
at 60 degrees you don't support but a tiny % of its weight,

so quite un -like a wheelbarrow with a load of stuff in it at near horizontal ..

'Hyperfold' cable loosens handle bar mast clamp as you fold the seat forward ,

practiced fold is badda-bing quick.. & your saddle height remains unchanged. ..

but no matter, only used ones are available, not new..

PakIt has taken over the production tooling & time, for 349 wheel bikes..






...

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Old 05-15-19, 03:10 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Tikit's unique offering; once folded , you have a handle on the back ,
and it rolls on its front wheel , holding that handle..

'Hyperfold' cable loosens handle bar mast clamp as you fold the seat forward ,

practiced fold is quick..

& your saddle height remains unchanged. ..
The Tikit is no longer made. Maybe it's time to stop talking about it as an option for a new owner ;-). The 16" small bikes that ARE still available for the OP to consider are the BF pakiT, the Dahon Curl, Brompton. None of these, or any 16", are suitable for lots of offroading, though. Even with a thudbuster, you'll knock your teeth out on 16" wheels on rough terrain. Stick with 20" if that's in the plan. The exception is the Birdy, which I believe is 18", but they have pretty good suspension front and rear. Fold compactly, too. https://www.r-m.de/en-en/models/birdy/ This might actually be the best choice for OP based on stated needs (fully adjustable, folds small, rides on any terrain).

Last edited by linberl; 05-15-19 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 05-15-19, 03:35 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
The exception is the Birdy, which I believe is 18", but they have pretty good suspension front and rear. Fold compactly, too. https://www.r-m.de/en-en/models/birdy/ This might actually be the best choice for you based on your needs (fully adjustable, folds small, rides on any terrain).
There is a travel case available for the Birdy but it is huge and clearly above airline dimensions. The Birdy is a pretty expensive bike, buy price is high and the running cost are very steep to if you follow their maintenance schedule and exchange relevant, expensive frame parts every couple of years or every couple of thousands of kms, whatever comes first. If you don't (and sometimes even if you do) you might face breakages on the rear forks, the front forks or the stem. I've mentioned and linked some in the Birdy thread in this forum. Because of this immense follow up cost and this risk I personally lost interest in a Birdy years ago once I recognized the quality issues, the maintenance plan and the customer service of r-m, that leaves a lot to be desired, to say it politely. The ride of the Birdy is somewhat special - either you like it or not. Test ride definitively necessary before thinking about buying one. Choice of tires is very limited - one can live with it but should be aware of it. I would definitively not recommend the Birdy for off road use - it is stressed with ordinary road usage already, obviously sometimes even overstressed. Therefor I would not recommend it for the OP: Bang for the buck ist not convincing in my eyes and neither is the fold (not very small plus dirty hands when folding) - with a 20" Bike Friday one would in my opinion be far better off for the intended purpose.
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Old 05-15-19, 03:41 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
berlinonaut, list the alternative frame lengths ie, distance between seat post and head tube centers..available from other companies..
Don't be so lazy - check youself. I sent you a couple of links last time and I'll post you two today:
Folding Bike « Bernds Bikes ? Made in Germany
https://www.urban-fahrradbau.de/massanfertigungen.html
Plus I know people here in Germany that build you a fully custom bike, folding or not, based on your personal needs and desires and to your personal size - but it will be far more expensive than a Bike Friday. In no ways are Bike Fridays bad bikes - just your claim that they would be the only ones making folders in custom sizes is a plain simple lie. Again, as it has been corrected before.
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Old 05-15-19, 03:45 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by berlinonaut View Post
There is a travel case available for the Birdy but it is huge and clearly above airline dimensions. The Birdy is a pretty expensive bike, buy price is high and the running cost are very steep to if you follow their maintenance schedule and exchange relevant, expensive frame parts every couple of years or every couple of thousands of kms, whatever comes first. If you don't (and sometimes even if you do) you might face breakages on the rear forks, the front forks or the stem. I've mentioned and linked some in the Birdy thread in this forum. Because of this immense follow up cost and this risk I personally lost interest in a Birdy years ago once I recognized the quality issues, the maintenance plan and the customer service of r-m, that leaves a lot to be desired, to say it politely. The ride of the Birdy is somewhat special - either you like it or not. Test ride definitively necessary before thinking about buying one. Choice of tires is very limited - one can live with it but should be aware of it. I would definitively not recommend the Birdy for off road use - it is stressed with ordinary road usage already, obviously sometimes even overstressed. Therefor I would not recommend it for the OP: Bang for the buck ist not convincing in my eyes and neither is the fold (not very small plus dirty hands when folding) - with a 20" Bike Friday one would in my opinion be far better off for the intended purpose.
I didn't realize they had quality issues; that's a bummer. On paper it looked like a good option for the OP. Yeah, in that case the BF Pocket Llama makes the most sense if they want to use it to replace their hybrids.
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Old 05-15-19, 03:47 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by berlinonaut View Post
Don't be so lazy - check youself. I sent you a couple of links last time and I'll post you two today:
Folding Bike « Bernds Bikes ? Made in Germany
https://www.urban-fahrradbau.de/massanfertigungen.html
Plus I know people here in Germany that build you a fully custom bike, folding or not, based on your personal needs and desires and to your personal size - but it will be far more expensive than a Bike Friday. In no ways are Bike Fridays bad bikes - just your claim that they would be the only ones making folders in custom sizes is a plain simple lie. Again, as it has been corrected before.
the op doesnt care about germany obscure manufactor or who is right in meaninless discussion
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Old 05-15-19, 03:58 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by marfar View Post
HI berlinonaut,

Your reply hits a lot of points that we (I'm the wife going on the trip) have been discussing. I do think we need to give the Brompton more of a chance, and I am curious about the P-model. We saw one but only tried the other options.

Having said that, I'm wondering if you (or others here) might be able to guide us based on the infrastructure of the places we will be visiting. We will go from Copenhagen - Hamburg - Amsterdam - Brussels - London. Given the amazing infrastructure of Berlin (biked there for a week last year), I'm assuming most of the points between these places will be amazingly bike-pathed as well? If this is the case, I think we need to spend a bit more time feeling out the Brompton because we will be folding it for our Airbnbs and for the buses or trains if we choose to explore by one of those.

Thank you all for your help with this. We will most likely be buying the bikes in the U.S., but we are open to working with someone in Denmark as well.

Well it possibly depends where you are coming from how you judge on the bike infrastructure. Copenhagen is a cyclist's dream come true - they have massively invested in cycling infrastructure there over the last years and there is not much to be desired. It is the current most positive example commonly used when people in Europe are discussing about what cycling infrastructure should look like and how cities can be changed. And they are discussing a lot about that at the moment. London is somewhat frightening - not only do they use the wrong side of the road , the traffic is very demanding and close passes are the standard. However, things are on the move there and there are also some very positive examples there - it very much depends from where you ride. Berlin is okish - we are miles away from any gold standard here but there is infrastructure (though most of the time not very good one) and cyclists have started a revolution three years ago and forced politicians to invest which just has started. The awareness towards cycling has gone up massively over the last years and the number of cyclist goes up continuously. Hamburg is okish as well but people over there complain massively about the infrastructure - small, old, not cleverly made. So I'd say copenhagen is best, Berlin second, Hamburg third and London last, judged subjectively.
Regarding touristic routes outside the cities: there is a very nice official cycle route from Copenhagen to Berlin. Between Hamburg and Berlin I am not so sure - but in general cycling tourism is common in Germany and there are good routes all over the country, so I would be surprised if there would be none between Hamburg and Berlin. Feel free to PM me or ask here - happy to help if I can!
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Old 05-15-19, 04:04 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by BromptonINrio View Post
the op doesnt care about germany obscure manufactor or who is right in meaninless discussion
For one at that time it was not at all clear which country the OP was coming from, second these are no "obscure manufacturers" - with the very same argument I could call Bike Friday an "obscure manufacturer" because no one over here knows or uses them, third Mr Bob has asked for examples and forth you do neither have to read it nor to answer when you are not interested in the topic. Interesting that you know what the OP does care about or is interested in or not given the fact that you are not the OP...
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Old 05-15-19, 04:14 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
I didn't realize they had quality issues; that's a bummer. On paper it looked like a good option for the OP. Yeah, in that case the BF Pocket Llama makes the most sense if they want to use it to replace their hybrids.
To make it clear: It is not that they would have a series of breakages or such or even a high amount. I cannot judge on this but have no indicators for that. I just know a couple of breakages (pic and stories are in the Birdy thread) and for me personally - especially in combination with their customer service - this is a deal breaker, having in mind the possible outcome. It is a shame that r-m seem basically to have abandoned the Birdy more or less. They focus on normal sized electric bikes and cargo bikes for quite some years already (where they have a huge lineup of models as well as a huge lineup of customers that are unhappy with their customer service for those bikes that cost thousands of Euros) but still sell the bike they started with but it does not seem to get a lot attention by it's inventors. Overpriced as many would say and neglected.

BTW. I personally own an older pocket LLama and like it but ride it only very occasionally.
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Old 05-15-19, 04:23 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
The exception is the Birdy, which I believe is 18", but they have pretty good suspension front and rear. Fold compactly, too. This might actually be the best choice for OP based on stated needs.
I like my Birdy and think it's the best bike for a US mixed mode transportation but a lot of the tradeoffs it makes is for better performance and performance isn't really a top priority for the OP. I'd opt for a Bike Friday in their position.

Originally Posted by linberl View Post
I didn't realize they had quality issues; that's a bummer.
It's not really quality issues so much as the design and materials. The frame is aluminum and as a material aluminum can only flex so many times so it has a limited lifespan. I believe the official recommendation for rear triangle replacement is 3 years or 15k km, which strikes me as excessive. The failures I've seen have been at considerably higher numbers but that can be left to the Birdy thread.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:03 PM
  #41  
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linberl,

Thank you. I was reading about the Birdy earlier today, and it does seem like something we need to consider. I am more comfortable with the 20" wheels since I'm not sure exactly what the terrain will be between Copenhagen and Brussels. I expect that we might encounter some gravel or less smooth roads, which makes me fearful to go with the 16" tires. And, it seems like most people on the forum seem to agree that 16" tires are pretty much only good for solid pavement. I didn't have much luck finding the Birdy yet, but that's moved to the higher end of the list.

Thank you for your comment.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:12 PM
  #42  
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berlinonaut,
Germany's infrastructure was a dream compared to the US. We are just so far behind you all. I appreciate the feedback on the Birdy and the BF, but from what I can see, the BF bikes take 8 weeks to build. We fly out on July 9 from the US, so we won't have time for the BF. Our options seem to be Brompton, Tern, and Dahon. We can test ride of all of these on the East Coast - the others are not really feasible in our time frame. We should have posted this earlier, but we are learning as we go.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:18 PM
  #43  
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Note: the 18" tires on the Birdy are actually only 3mm larger in diameter than the 16ers on the Brompton/Curl.

18" tires are actually smaller in diameter than 17" tires. Welcome to the world of bicycle tire sizes.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:19 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by marfar View Post
linberl,

Thank you. I was reading about the Birdy earlier today, and it does seem like something we need to consider. I am more comfortable with the 20" wheels since I'm not sure exactly what the terrain will be between Copenhagen and Brussels. I expect that we might encounter some gravel or less smooth roads, which makes me fearful to go with the 16" tires. And, it seems like most people on the forum seem to agree that 16" tires are pretty much only good for solid pavement. I didn't have much luck finding the Birdy yet, but that's moved to the higher end of the list.

Thank you for your comment.
Sounds like the major objection to the Birdy is the maintenance cost but judging from your generous budget, I'm thinking that may not be as much an issue for you as finding the right bike is. As to their customer service, if you have a local shop that can and will work on them, it becomes less of a problem. Not sure where you are located but if you consider Birdy seriously, maybe check to see if you do have a mechanic within reasonable distance who is prepared to learn how to service them and is able to get parts from them.
That's one thing about Bike Friday I can speak directly to - the customer service. It's unbelievable, period. I have a pakiT and I have been using it in lieu of a car to haul massive heavy stuff and the stresses caused a small frame crack on the tailpiece. BF paid to have it packed and shipped back to Oregon and repaired it under warranty, then I somehow managed to do it again (not a fault with the bike, it wasn't designed to do what I'm doing) and once again they not only repaired it for free but they actually redesigned the part specifically for me and my usage!!!! They custom fabricated a much stronger part just so I can continue to be car free! I cannot speak highly enough of their incredible service, integrity, and commitment to owners. The reality is I should have kept my Bike Friday NWT for the heavy stuff and just used the pakiT for normal riding, but I wanted to just have one bike or so I thought. BF has supported me every step of the way in my goal to be car free and make the pakiT that one bike. So, if amazing service matters to you, you should definitely consider their bikes.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:21 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by marfar View Post
berlinonaut,
Germany's infrastructure was a dream compared to the US. We are just so far behind you all. I appreciate the feedback on the Birdy and the BF, but from what I can see, the BF bikes take 8 weeks to build. We fly out on July 9 from the US, so we won't have time for the BF. Our options seem to be Brompton, Tern, and Dahon. We can test ride of all of these on the East Coast - the others are not really feasible in our time frame. We should have posted this earlier, but we are learning as we go.
Be aware BF has some bikes already built up - you should call and see what they can do. I personally know a couple owners who had trips planned and BF made it happen =). Call and talk to Steve in sales (tell him Linda Berland referred you). They very likely can take care of you in time - if that's what you want.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:22 PM
  #46  
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There seems to be more and more mention of rough roads and gravel grinding. Consider a 20" wheel, front and rear suspension Dahon Jetstream.

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Old 05-15-19, 05:28 PM
  #47  
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Considering 20" but don't think you'll need the complication of suspension? Hard to beat the Dahon Visc D18. Wide range gearing, triangulated folding main frame, suitcase-packable, fits Big Apple tires if you want.

Overview:
http://shop.nomadic.net/visc-d18-wit...-traveler-case
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Old 05-15-19, 05:36 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Considering 20" but don't think you'll need the complication of suspension? Hard to beat the Dahon Visc D18. Wide range gearing, triangulated folding main frame, suitcase-packable, fits Big Apple tires if you want.

Overview:
Dahon Visc D18- Suitcase packable bike with Suitcase - Appletini - Green -kit with - Origami Traveler Case (blue with yellow)
What does this mean? It's in their description.
"This build comes custom with Separable Frame that allows the whole bike to be packed to a sub 62" Suitcase that can be dispatched as normal check-in baggage for air and long distance train travel. As such it also fits tight in your vehicle, closet or anywhere else.
This is a special order bike and takes approximately 1 week to convert from our standard Visc D18. "

I'd get it from Thor Usa, anyway, where it is $400 less (buy your own suitcase). http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/current/viscp18d.htm

Or go with something 5 lbs lighter...http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/current/mulx.htm I really like my single speed version of this bike.

Last edited by linberl; 05-15-19 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 05-15-19, 05:47 PM
  #49  
marfar
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Read this review of Dahon Visc D18, and it doesn't seem to say good things about the speed system....what's a speed system?

Didn't realize I couldn't post links until I have 10 posts on this forum...oops.

Here's the pro/con list from the article:
Pros:
  • Stylish
  • Colorful
  • Heavy
Cons:
  • Lacks speed system
  • Lack of adjustable features
  • Not very strong
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Old 05-15-19, 05:52 PM
  #50  
linberl
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There is "this" about the Visc....kind of a big deal I would think:
"One thing that is a bit annoying is that, since the brake and gear cables run inside the frame, when the bike is folded they get pulled, so rolling this bike when folded is not an option because the brakes are on. I understand this is a trade-off, and the cables in the frame is definitely nice." So no rolling :-(.
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