tcs

Ah, the 'Jackleg' fix to take stress off the 'Aardvark' (a textbook stress riser design). BF sent the little stamped sheet metal brackets out but didn't include a longer bolt, forcing the installer to source their own. Installed, the Jackleg blocked a sure grip on the roll-when-folded handle.

fricker61

Yep, that's the one! And given the fact that the "aardvark" wasn't identical from bike to bike, the spacing of the holes in the "dogbone"/jackleg" didn't always line up with the holes on the aardvark, so you had to wrestle things into alignment. The right thing to do would have been to just ship the new, improved aardvark for every bike, but I suspect that would have been a financial disaster for BF. And you're right, the grip on the handle was really awkward after the modification.

Then there was the whole "every stem we ever built needs to be replaced" fiasco... which also showed me what a small, low production numbers company BF is. When that recall came up, I think they had produced something like 4000 Tikits in 4 years or so... compared to Brompton building 18,000 bikes in the first year we were a dealer, 2008, and steadily increasing since. Seeing the numbers really put things in perspective for me, in some ways.

The real lack of dealer support just made being a dealer an untenable situation for me, capped off by a set of policy decisions they made that were the final straw.

Tim

linberl

Interesting about the dealer vs. direct. When I bought my pakiT, I could have gone into SF to order from the dealer there; I'm pretty sure pricing was about the same. I did not have any discount coupons from BF. However - the biggest reason I ordered direct was sales tax! Zero tax direct and 8.5% if I ordered in SF. On a two thousand dollar+ order, that is nearly two hundred bucks, pays for lots of goodies. With BF being in a no-sales-tax state, I think it would be hard for any dealer to compete on price as a result.

CliffordK

Hmmm... time to dig out the Tikit to try to figure out what these dogbones and aardvarks are.

But, it sounds like a problem with building the bikes as a unit on a complete frame jig, rather than designing a rear triangle jig, a mainframe jig, & etc. Then simply assemble and align with interchangeable parts.

And, say one has an crash and needs to replace either the rear triangle or mainframe, it likely has to go back to the factory, when it should simply be shipped one-way USPS for $5 or $10.

CliffordK

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of sales tax (90% of the states) vs no sales tax states (4 + Alaska).

One could design it so that each dealer would get say a 50 mile radius exclusive zone. Still accept factory direct orders, but kick say $50 back to the dealer for any factory direct order.

We're seeing sales taxes hit Amazon and E-Bay. I'd anticipate we'll also see it with smaller vendors shortly.

linberl

I don't know if we will ever see it applied to states that simply don't have sales tax, where the business has no physical presence in another state. But in any case, yes, it is a factor at this time and can be substantial. I'm not sure about the idea of kicking back to a dealer just based on geography; maybe having a computer kiosk in the store where a customer can place the order for direct ship after conferring with the local salespeople would make sense. Then BF can see the IP and apply a credit for orders where the dealer actually worked with a customer?

Nightdiver

Most brands that successfully do omni-channel actually handle it based on geography. If a customer places an order for a bike on the website, the closest dealer that has it in-stock gets the sale (and thus the margin). If there is no dealer within reasonable range then the sale either goes to a dealer capable of handling remote sales/service/support or it is sold directly from the brand. Bike Friday is mostly custom orders, but probably has a pretty low dealer count, so should be able to work it out geographically as well. This is really important for most brands because they want consumers to have a relationship with their dealers. Only brands that don't give a damn about their dealer base would sell direct and compete against their own dealers. Had no idea until this thread that Bike Friday was one of those.

CliffordK

The problem is that most of their sales aren't floor stock.

I imagine they sell some. But, the majority of the bikes will be custom orders.

So, go to the dealer, place an order, and 2 months later the bike arrives.

Go to Bike Friday, place an order, and 2 months later, the bike arrives.

Unboxing and assembly? Because it is a folding bike, that is pretty straight forward, and Bike Friday sells the bikes ready to roll.

bargainguy

Let's talk about dealer networks for a moment.

The Big Three (Specialized, Giant, Trek) all have dealer contracts, yearly minimums and visits by reps to service those contracts. Since the Big Three don't sell much direct (yet), they rely on those dealer contracts. It's their bread and butter, their major revenue stream.

Contrast that infrastructure with BF, selling mostly direct and doing their own setup. Theoretically, all a buyer has to do is open the box, do some minimal reassembly, and enjoy. Why have a dealer network at all?

To service those bikes and perform warranty repairs, among other things. A go-between with the factory and buyer. Problem is, if BF concentrates on the direct model at the expense of local dealers, those dealers are effectively disincentivized from carrying the brand, because there's nothing in it for them.

So now we're left with a void. I can't see dealers jumping on board chasing wafer-thin margins. If I were a folding dealer, sure, I'd want to carry BF, but if there's nothing in it for me other than the cachet of selling BF, I probably wouldn't. At the end of the day, it's what pays your bills that keeps you in business.

himespau 

Dealers also help bring in new customers. I like the idea of a BF, but I'm not going to drop that kind of scratch until I have a chance to ride something similar. Just me.

linberl

BF has operated under a different model until now. Test rides were arranged by calling BF and they hooked potential customers up with existing customers to test ride. It works well and it is how I test rode the pakiT before buying. Dealers previously did not have floor stock to sell; they maybe had one or two units at the most for customers to see. My local dealer did not have a pakiT in stock when I was looking - so I arranged the test ride through BF. They do have one Haul-a-Day in stock for customers to test, but it also has an adjustable frame so no need to stock various sizes. If I'm test riding a bike, it needs to be in my size, more or less, for me to determine if it's something I want. That's the difference between BF and pretty much every other brand - the multiplicity of frame sizes and that makes it really difficult for dealers to stock.
Having said that, the HAD uses the Osata frame and they could easily use that frame on other models, like the NWT and even the pakiT. This one change could allow them to open up availability through dealers and also get their bikes in shops where folks can see and try them - which would definitely increase sales! The Pocket Rocket/Pro would still remain custom only and as a result direct sales only. Setting aside the sales tax issue, if my local dealer had a pakiT in stock that could be sized for me, I would definitely have done my test ride through the dealer and would have ordered through them as well. My local guy is awesome, I still take my bikes there if they need work (even though it's a Bart ride into the City), and I do want to support them. But their shop is tiny, they carry other brands out of necessity, and cannot stock even 2 or 3 models in 3 different sizes.
Put the Osata on all but the Rockets, get one in every dealer shop, orders will turn around faster with the Osata frames - that's how BF can increase sales.

FolderBeholder

As I've said previously in this ever-lengthening thread....'sales is a contact sport". Thats where the LBS is probably better suited than a direct sales approach (unless geographically well located to the interested party) or trusting most non sales-oriented consumers to do so.

There are a couple unique travel trailer manufacturers using this "sales ambassador" approach, and while it doesn't diminish the inherent goodness of those products, it definitely hamstrings the sales efforts and concurrently any economies of scale and product recognition/desire for them as well.
You'll see very few of those unique fiberglass micro-trailers on the roads compared with those available through the traditional sales channel (I'm speaking of Scamp and Casita brand trailers specifically here)

In a nutshell BF needs to find SOME way to increase its throughput and increasing product demand (creating new interested prospects) is needed above and beyond that of people specifically looking for a "Bike Friday".

linberl

I agree and I think the way you do that is by having stores stock your bikes so when someone comes in looking for a Dahon or a Brompton or a Yuba cargo, they are also face-to-face with BF alternatives. One thing that makes BF unique is the custom frame sizing, though, so using the Osata as much as possible would allow dealers to have the bikes on hand (at a minimum, for test rides). I don't see the Rockets ever being a stocked bike; that's a bike experienced riders choose anyway. And BF can't compete with Brompton based on fold, but if consumers can test ride a properly sized unit, they can determine for themselves whether the better ride quality is worth a slightly less brilliant fold. BF can't compete with Dahon on price, but if consumers can ride a BF and see how it adjusts frame size so anyone in their family can use it, maybe it's the bike they choose. And if consumers can see how much easier it is to ride and park a HAD instead of a long Yuba, again maybe they choose it. Especially for the cargo bike consumer, having one on hand to touch and ride really matters.

bargainguy

BF used to have a sales ambassador in Lynette Chiang. I believe her title was Customer Evangelist.

I was fortunate enough to do some traveling on the road with her. Can't say enough good things about Lynette. She was laser-focused on customer service and brand awareness, and doing it mostly on the road from her Pocket Rocket Pro. Not an easy task.

Has BF had anyone in a similar capacity since?

FolderBeholder

Additionally, although it's most likely a luxury at this point, is to start thinking of themselves as a "bicycle" company versus a "folding bike" company and offering maybe another line of similar-but-not-folding bikes featuring the same core strengths (their "DNA" hand built, steel framed) as they enjoy now, and appealing to those who may want a BF, but dont need a folder. After all, even McDonald's was once 'just" a hamburger company.

Anyway, diversifying their product line wouldn't be advisable at the moment, but the point I'm trying to make is that appealing to people to whom may NOT be interested, or even know about their handcrafted-in-the-USA folding bikes is key.

linberl

I don't know if they would really be competitive with "bicycle" companies especially given the cost of US labor. As to making them non-folding....well, I hardly ever folded my NWT but it was nice to have it for shoving in a trunk or to pack for a trip on occasion. Mostly I used it as a mini-velo. The pocket companion style BF, which does not have the folding seat mast, is certainly closer to a regular bike but still packable. I don't really see anyone wanting a BF that isn't a folder, though (other than the cargo bike) because there are a bazillion options out there for that. I wouldn't think it advisable to enter an already congested area of business. Is there really a market in the US for handbuilt steel 20" bikes? Minivelos just have not proven popular here at all. If you're going to go small, the added benefit of being transit-capable and/or travel capable is kind of important. And the market doesn't need another full sized US made steel frame bike manufacturer - there are already quite a few filling this tiny niche. They need a "hook" - either foldability, packability, adjustable frame, reduced footprint cargo bike, etc. I think the models they have are pretty good and - if there we actually in shops for folks to encounter when bike shopping - they could do much better.

Joe Remi

The NWT/Llama/Pocket needs to fold quickly and efficiently, that's the hook. But as the company person here already said, they want to do it but can't afford to.

linberl

I've never had a bike shop but I would just think that the shops buy the bikes they have on their sales floor. That's inventory, so BF shouldn't be taking any kind of hit on those units. Like I said, I understand dealers can't afford to buy multiple sizes of all their models, which makes the Osata frame a good solution for the pakiT, NWT and HAD. The Llama is a diamond frame so completely different; the Rockets are high-end road bikes where custom sizing is critical - neither of those models would be affordable as inventory since they would need a minimum of 4 sizes each to match BF custom frame sizing. They could continue to sell those direct. The pakiT/HAD/NWT are more likely to sell to an average consumer anyway and are easier to market.

spambait11

If BF's biggest clientele are now overseas (Japan? Singapore?), then they should take advantage of these markets by offering steel frames with CUSTOM CHROME LUGS and HIGH END components! There’s still a cachet for well-made American products overseas. In other words, instead of going cheaper, BF should try the luxury market, and should start by revamping their Not-so-great website. Once they build a following overseas, then they can re-enter the American market.

How well the bikes fold is not the issue. Unique, aesthetically pleasing designs, with great attention to detail is what matters. We all have bikes we commute and beat around with, and then we have our show off bikes. Image is a big deal in Asia.

Jarlybart

Most of the people working there agree with this idea and wish the leadership was as well. Sadly, since I left they took a total 180 and went cheap and to the point of even bashing their high-end bikes in their emails. Pretty sad to watch but the reality is...it's their company to tank and investors don't even get asked what they think because they don't have a voice. One more step to their end which they are basically at with only building 9 bikes a week at best. The bikes are super cool, very functional and fun to ride...but some boats sink due to the captain and poor choices. Should we rename BF to Titanic Bikes?

Joe Remi

Nobody is renaming it Titanic Bikes, and nobody is pretending they can make a killing as a luxury brand in Asia. Come on you guys.

tim24k

R.I.P. Bike Friday. Their pending demise doesn’t surprise me. Before I bought my first folding bike with cash in hand the wife and I drove over 100 miles to see them in Eugene, OR. I was all ready to order two bikes then and there, then I asked if I can see one of the bikes broken down in the suitcase, that was an option back then. I was promptly refused! “Go to YouTube I don’t have the time.” If that is the kind of service you get from a company before you take my money you will never see my money or me ever again. I now own six Dahons and two Bromptons.

downtube

I think BF is a great company. I loved their Tikit model. I hope they will be ok, however this is the worst bike market since the recession.

Hopefully Tern goes first, the additional market resources should save BF.

Thanks
Yan

linberl

I think the reports of their demise are grossly over-rated. They've ridden out difficulties before by reducing staffing and scaling back and if they have to, they can do that again. However, I think they are struggling with exactly what they say - how to move forward and grow in a radically changing bike market. they shifted from travel bikes to include cargo bikes and e-bikes and I'm not sure they had the clearest plan for that. They grew the models which increased complexity but didn't actually grow their own marketing at the same time. While they'd like an infusion of capital, what they need even more is someone with new ideas on how to market and deploy dealers (we've beat this to death here already). I hope they get that person, and they are also a "bike" person, not just a business person. The industry is going through a harsh change but with the right focus they can survive, and then work on thriving. If you're sitting on the fence about getting a new bike, now might be the time to order it......

FolderBeholder

Be careful what you wish for....Tern is likely much better funded than...some other bike companies are. If they go, they certainly will do so after many other smaller, contract bike sellers have done so.