pinholecam

Bike Friday is the poor bike tourist with unwashed beard kind of bike.
Its not the Rolls Royce British gentleman/engineer that is the Moulton nor the hipster Brompton.

If anyone wanted fast, it'd be fancy materials (Carbon, Alu, Ti ) and not steel which is perceived as old man's material.
Yes, you've got the triple butting, new steel alloys, but this perception problem pervades all the way to road bikes.
Carbon is hard to layer, Ti needs special/careful welding... well steel is "you just weld them together" does not help to give the impression of craftmanship.
Folding ability is generally fair only vs most competitors (except the Moulton)

Though Bike Friday does have nice bikes, they fail to capture the imagination with all the factors I've mentioned.
Rather high price does not help.
The buyer is either the casual low end rider who will buy the Dahon Horize/ Fnhon/ Crius or the high end enthusiast (or well heeled buyer who just wants to buy the perceived "best") either way, BF just does not fall rightly into either categories.
Even the Pocket Rocket Pro/Super Pro have better perceived competition in the Tyrell FSX (materials, quality) , High end Birdy (suspension, bling), Dahon/Terns (light build/components, name) )

Basically, Bike Friday is just another folding bike company out there and a bit too US centric in a global market with global competition.
Its a bike that you only know is good after you ride it, and thats a problem since perception gives the competition and advantage.
Yes, seems like they realize marketing will help, and I hope they will find the right way/balance.

spambait11

Brompton did it, and they only have one frame and four different handle bars. Come on guy.

Joe Remi

Bike Friday is not going to duplicate Brompton's success. There is no room in today's market to repeat it.

spambait11

This is why BF needs to reinvent itself. It can stay grunge (like Chuck Taylor Converse shoes), but do something with the grunge. They already have great color choices, and control over their own design and manufacturing, so they still have the ability to be the Rivendell of the folding world (talk about another quirky company). But their components are low end, and their electric motor options are afterthoughts and not integrated into the bike from the ground up.



A thousand times yes - too US centric at the moment. They used to heavily market themselves as a travel bike company, so they should travel to where their biggest clients are now and grow them. That’s not a difficult growth strategy.

spambait11

You should have told that to Steve Jobs 20 years ago.

They don’t need to duplicate Brompton's success. They need to duplicate their own.

ladi

That's not true. Brompton certainly is not a "luxury brand". They create solid bikes that they sell for a price you might call something between fair and slightly overpriced. They have good branding which allows them to do that. But their components in terms of brakes and shifting system are extremely basic.

Most Bromptons in Asia are below 2500 USD in retail price (non-electric). If you configure a luxury Bike Friday (Rohloff, disc brakes, SON dynamo, Chris King headset, ...) you might well end above 5000 USD. There are people buying in this price range, but not nearly enough to maintain the company.

axolotl

Thank you for posting, Enthusiast. While I got the e-mail from Bike Friday a while ago regarding looking for a new business partner, I only saw this thread recently. I haven't read all of the posts, but like so many internet discussions, there seemed to be a huge amount of probably baseless speculation.

I bought my first NWT 20 years ago, and got a NWT Lite a year ago. I've been extremely happy with both. The best purchases I've ever made other than my home. I've been fortunate to have been able to have toured a lot on these bikes, as well as use them for daily riding. Someone near me has a Brompton and we're the same size. She kindly let me ride her Brompton one day. While I like the clever quick-fold, it simply doesn't ride as nicely as either of my BFs, and I certainly can't imagine touring or commuting more than a minimal distance on one. I test rode a couple of different Dahon models 6 or 7 years ago. Simply awful.

I hope that Bike Friday's search for a new business partner is successful and am glad to read that regardless, the company is in decent financial shape for now.

linberl

BF moved into other areas because they were not selling enough of the high-end travel folders. They've innovated a couple of great designs (the HAD is brilliant, and the pakiT is actually a much nicer bike than non-owners think). These bikes start around $1200USD. I think BF identified the fact that high-end folders were not going to keep them going and growing, and they looked to other models and added e-assist as well. Because the bikes are travel bikes, the e-assist is going to be a removable design, not integrated into the bike. You cannot fly with integrated e-bikes; you have to be able to remove the batteries, keep the batteries under set Wh, etc., and keep the overall weight down. The most competitive bike they have is the HAD; they just need a brilliant marketing campaign and they could overtake Yuba, etc. I firmly believe that one model could save this company. The number of cargo bikes I see is exploding as people are trying to make do with one car instead of two. I've talked to many cargo bike owners and hardly any of them even know about the HAD, but when I mention they could have gotten a cargo bike that only weighs 30 lbs and is easier to park, they're like "what????!!!!". The HAD is the most unique bike they make and could save them, sigh.

Jarlybart

Sorry to say but the HAD and the pakiT both use an "outside vendor" for many parts and pieces who is barely reliable at best and don't make them nearly the amount of money the high-end bikes make unless they are also sold with high-end parts on them. So many details are missing from the sale of this business and all the who and what's of the business. Buyer beware as they say...just make sure to read the fine-print. It's likely that the tune has changed there looking for a buyer vs. investor due to these facts.

linberl

The frames are built in-house. That's really all you are buying when you purchase an American made bike. Pretty much all components are made overseas unless you source Pauls or something similar. I have to take exception to your opinion; when I purchased my pakiT, I specced all custom parts not listed on the website and BF charged me full retail price for those items. So even if BF paid full retail (which they didn't) the components would have been break-even. I have a friend who bought a PR pro and did the same thing, requested very specific groupsets and other parts; he also paid pretty much full retail for them. The frame sizing simplicity of the pakiT (3 frames) and HAD (just one frame) helps to offset production costs compared to the fully custom units. Furthermore, it's clear you have a bone to pick, so I'll consider what you say with that in mind.

bargainguy

Wait a minute. If you order a custom frame through a framebuilder, and have the framebuilder or a shop build it up for you, don't you typically get charged full retail for parts?

Green Gear is probably a relatively small account for whatever distributor services them, and I doubt they get much of a discount. I'm not sure I'd characterize them as being outside industry norms in this regard. If I'm wrong about this, anyone in the industry, please enlighten me.

linberl

Not suggesting it's outside the norm at all. Just saying that they're not losing on the components.

Jarlybart

Actually they are. They pay overnight shipping on most of their orders which means they lose almost any profit they could be making. I have plenty of bones to pick but it's only because there was so much wrong with how the business was run. Old habits are really hard to break and it's proof with what happened with the 200K as it was gone at a blink. Sorry but there is just so much you don't understand because you have never been on the inside. Accuse me all you want of having ill-will towards BF but I promise you that is too blanket of a statement. There is so much good there but it is being wasted by poor leadership or no leadership at all. If they get new leadership you will not only see higher quality bikes but you will see them with much less wait and making a profit on those bikes. Some simple changes could change so much there and actually being a true lean business would help in all of that.

linberl

Not to start an argument, but my parts were definitely not overnighted, nor were my friends. The parts for my build were ordered and received over 3 weeks and then my build was slotted a week later. In any case, I hope you find a way to move on to something that makes you happier.

bargainguy

Then it seems you and your friend are a bit miffed at paying full retail for parts on your custom builds. Backhanded way of saying, they should give you a discount on parts as well as the frame, right? If you ordered a Moots, or any other high-zoot boutique custom frame, would you want a discount on parts there too?

FolderBeholder

Somewhere between one poster's perspective from the inside-looking-out, and the rest of ours' from the outside-looking-in, is the actual, business and people reality of the current sitch at BF. THAT is the reality their future will be based on be it via a new owner, no new owner, or otherwise. Unless someone is ready, cash in hand to step in and do their due diligence the rest of us may never actually know what actually lies behind the curtain there.

linberl

No...you are completely missing my point, perhaps you didn't read the previous posts. It was suggested that BF was losing money on components and that was my response - that at MSRP it was unlikely they were losing money. Neither I nor may friend were miffed at paying full price - we knew exactly what things were going to cost going in, and were fine with it as we wanted to support BF anyway.

bargainguy

I think you're missing my point. You assume that because Green Gear charges full retail for parts, they don't lose money on them. Jarlybart contested this from his former position inside the company, and you contest this from your position completely outside the company. Exactly how do you know this?

linberl

If the company charges customers what it pays (or more, since they probably get a small discount as you said), they don't lose money. Jarlybart claimed they ALWAYS pay overnight shipping which cuts into their profits. I've ordered 2 bikes from them and my friend has ordered one; in each case parts were not shipped via overnight shipping. I had some questions about whether a couple parts I requested were actually the correct ones and BF forwarded me their orders to verify it; both orders showed standard shipping. So, at best, Jarlybart's comment is not entirely accurate. The way BF explained it to me on custom builds is that they order the parts and assemble everything before they schedule a build date; build dates are typically a month (or more) from order date. This obviates the need to pay for overnight shipping except in very rare cases (maybe a rush build in time for a trip). Ex-employees are not always the most unbiased source of information.

bargainguy

OK, take out the overnight shipping. Exactly how do you know whether Green Gear loses money on parts? You're saying, can't trust a former employee because he's disgruntled. Problem is, he worked there, you didn't. Even if his info is biased, he's seen the day-to-day operations on a first-hand basis. I'm still interested in finding out whether you know this for a fact and have the stats to back it up, or if it's just a guess.

linberl

I can only go by my experience and my friend's experience, but 3 bikes seems like a fair sample. Simple math - if the consumer pays MSRP and BF pays no more than MSRP (probably a little less), there's no loss. One of the parts I wanted they purchased retail from the same source I would have had I chosen to swap parts after receiving the bike; they sent me that invoice and they charged me exactly what it cost them including shipping. If they are losing money, it is not likely on custom parts. They also did not apply any sort of credit for the stock parts not used, so there's a bit of cost-saving to them in that against the price of the bike. Of course, I knew that and was okay with it; I just didn't want to be bothered flipping parts after I got the bike. Now maybe they aren't offsetting labor adequately, or they have other inefficiencies (of scale and otherwise) that is causing financial disruption.

Earlier in the thread Jarlybart said " have changed their strategy to selling the cheapest bikes they make which make them almost 0 profit." But then he says they lose money on custom parts due to overnight shipping, so custom bikes would be lower profit based on components, whereas the cheaper bikes using stock parts they buy in bulk, would be more economical at least in terms of parts cost. So maybe they make it up on custom bikes by charging more overall but custom bikes are also more costly to produce as they have "custom" frame sizes instead of standardized frames and require part acquisition instead of using on-hand bulk buy parts.

Now maybe their internal systems are so messed up they can't produce anything economically, but that doesn't bode well for the high-end bikes either.

bargainguy

So the theory is, if it's true for my three cases, it's true for all cases. Proof by induction might work for mathematics, but doesn't work here. Your sample size is tiny and you're making a sweeping generalization without having a large data set to work with. Got it.

CliffordK

The company doesn't pay full MSRP on any "stock" parts. It is possible that something unique such as Dura Ace or SRAM Red would be different, but I'd imagine they still get the discounts.

Keep in mind that the mail order companies try to undercut MSRP. So, see something mail order for $100, and it may well be $150 MSRP (unless there is a MAP agreement).

Many of the parts suppliers have been fighting overseas companies undercutting their prices.

linberl

It's also based on what current bike friday employees told me, employees who have worked there for years, even decades. Compared to Jarl who worked there just a little over a year. But whatever you want to believe.....

Joe Remi

He doesn't want to BELIEVE anything, he just wants to be a jerk to you. I have no idea why, you seem very nice.