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Downtube folding bike

Old 03-17-07, 10:38 PM
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Thank you Mcqurme! I wish you a fun and safe trip. I'll be looking forward on the pics for sure.

I think I'll gonna step back too, and start working on the VIIIH come Monday.

Thanks everyone!
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Old 03-17-07, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DVC45
Thank you Mcqurme and good luck with your trip!

I think I'll gonna step back too, and start working on the VIIIH come Monday. Thanks everyone!
Performance's price is expensive.

JensonUSA has the Singleator for $37 - https://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...ingleator.aspx

Have fun working on the bike. Let's see some pictures when you're done!
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Old 03-18-07, 09:11 AM
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Italy

Hi,
WOW! Trip to Italy with the DT's. Where are you going? We will expect pictures and a full report when you return. Have a great trip!
We'll be biking around Tuscany, starting from Florence, going from town to town on a pretty relaxed schedule, but carrying all our gear on the DT's (no camping gear - we'll stay in B&B's). I'm excited about it.

Thanks for the good wishes! Talk to you all soon!

M
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Old 03-18-07, 10:59 AM
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Correct Octalink V1 bottom bracket with a 115 mm length

McG,
You will love Italy. When you climb those hills, think of the Little Pirate, rest his soul.

While you hit those B&B's, take their advice for traditional Tuscany dinners, especially the bean dishes. Man! So good!

Having real trouble sourcing out a decent price for the correct Octalink/Isis BB for the
Downtube IXNS.

A previous poster sourced the square taper model for $20 plus $10 shipping (ouch!)
With a used dual road crankset off of ebay would be the cheapest, but good quality way to go. Can't one just take of the smallest chainring on a triple and make it work? And I don't think it has to be 9 speed compatible, or does it with the 9 speed drivetrain? That is important to know as well.
9sp Sunrace Juju drivetrain--Man, JuJu? Sounds like a Hunter Thompson sourced product, got to get my Mojo workin'.
And what about the mountain chainrings? I guess the problem with those is not a high enough chainring for the flats.
I have a 43 shoe size, and am trying to keep the cranks at 170 or smaller.
Am I on the right track?

Anyway, Italy. One of my favorite countries. If you ever get close to Lake Cuomo and the lower Dolomites, it is worth the trip to put the bikes on the local train and head over for a day trip. Just beautiful. There is a reason that George Clooney bought a home there.
All the best,
Lyndon
Salt Lake City
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Old 03-18-07, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pm124
I, too, am about to throw on a pair of cranks I have sitting around. Similar to the 105 in Q and chainline. So, the question is: if I mount the inner chainring as the drive and an outter chainring as a Peter
Anyone assuming that they'll be able to replace the BB/crank may want to visit a few posts at

https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/266822-downtube-ix-help.html

I had bought this bike hoping to mainly upgrade all the components and use the frame.

There is very little QC that goes into inspection/assembly of these bikes, and I think that many are being damaged in a way that one will not know this until they get outside of any warranty period. One may argue that this is what the bike shop setup is for, but several of the components (original BB tapping/install/frame hinge faces) are untouchable once fabricated.

A friend of mine that also has a recent downtube has the same play in the hinge problem I described. Yan said that shouldn't be there.

Everyone is also going to want to pull off their wheels and have their hubs serviced. I did this for mine preventively (this isn't normally part of a dealer setup!), but a friend didn't. I tried spinning the axle in the rear hub and it is heavily grinding. His bike has < 100 miles, garage kept, never in rain. The outer locknut on his front hub wasn't even tight. The wheel will roll now, but in a few years? Your races may already be trashed.
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Old 03-18-07, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SesameCrunch
I would not lube the seat post! To me, that would be almost dangerous. You want the seat post to stay put, not slide around on you. Think about the scratch marks on the seat post as "battle scars". It shows you actually do RIDE the bike!
Sesame, you will almost never hear someone say not to lube a seatpost except for carbon fiber posts. The grease will not make the post slide if the seat tube and seat post have been spec'ed properly. Look in other bike forums/maintenance manuals. The only reason why someone wouldn't want to do this for a folding bike is the mess created for packing. But the tube/tube interface suffers as a result, and probably even more so since it's more likely that the post is being moved more on a folder than a normal bike.
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Old 03-18-07, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jasong
Sesame, you will almost never hear someone say not to lube a seatpost except for carbon fiber posts. The grease will not make the post slide if the seat tube and seat post have been spec'ed properly. Look in other bike forums/maintenance manuals. The only reason why someone wouldn't want to do this for a folding bike is the mess created for packing. But the tube/tube interface suffers as a result, and probably even more so since it's more likely that the post is being moved more on a folder than a normal bike.
OK, I take your point. I find it OK to just wipe my seatpost clean.
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Old 03-18-07, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SesameCrunch
Performance's price is expensive.

JensonUSA has the Singleator for $37 - https://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...ingleator.aspx

Have fun working on the bike. Let's see some pictures when you're done!
Thanks for the tip, Sesame! I'm placing my order right now. I'll post pics for sure.

man, I miss the VIIIH already! Its weekend and we have very nice weather today. Oh, well, I'll just use my road bike or my Hybrid bike instead.

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Old 03-18-07, 03:48 PM
  #1134  
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Sesame, you will almost never hear someone say not to lube a seatpost except for carbon fiber posts. The grease will not make the post slide if the seat tube and seat post have been spec'ed properly. Look in other bike forums/maintenance manuals. The only reason why someone wouldn't want to do this for a folding bike is the mess created for packing. But the tube/tube interface suffers as a result, and probably even more so since it's more likely that the post is being moved more on a folder than a normal bike.
There's actually a lot of debate on this point. After regularly lubing the interface for about 15 years, I recently have stopped the practice because the lube attracts grime, which causes scratches and makes electrolytic welds more likely (I remember back in '91, spending about 8 hours with a hacksaw blade cutting a stuck seatpost out of my Fat Chance bike, so as to not ruin the beautiful handmade frame - that seatpost had plenty of grease on it). Since stopping using the lube, I have had much less problems with sticky/stuck seatposts.

So, you've heard me say it: lubing seatposts is not always the best thing to do.
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Old 03-18-07, 04:02 PM
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There is very little QC that goes into inspection/assembly of these bikes, and I think that many are being damaged in a way that one will not know this until they get outside of any warranty period. One may argue that this is what the bike shop setup is for, but several of the components (original BB tapping/install/frame hinge faces) are untouchable once fabricated.
Well, I agree that the QC from the factory is not top notch. On the other hand, this is the function of the LBS. Bike shops (at least good ones) do a very thorough inspection of any bike they sell, and they would uncover many of the problems you mention, before the bike goes out the door. To that end, the Downtube site clearly states that one needs to take the bike to a professional mechanic before riding.

A friend of mine that also has a recent downtube has the same play in the hinge problem I described. Yan said that shouldn't be there.
So the critical question is, did Yan do something to solve this problem when you contacted him? If yes, then I'd say you or your friend have nothing to complain about. If not, then some agitation seems warranted.

Everyone is also going to want to pull off their wheels and have their hubs serviced. I did this for mine preventively (this isn't normally part of a dealer setup!), but a friend didn't. I tried spinning the axle in the rear hub and it is heavily grinding. His bike has < 100 miles, garage kept, never in rain. The outer locknut on his front hub wasn't even tight. The wheel will roll now, but in a few years? Your races may already be trashed.
The hubs are part of any inspection that a shop or professional would do before sending a bike out the door. I checked mine right away when they arrived and adjusted them. So I don't see this as a problem. Part of the reason the bikes are so inexpensive is you're not paying for the dealer markup. For people like me who want to do the work themselves, this saves money. But for those not willing/able, then it is mandatory to either spend the money to take it to a shop, or to buy a more expensive bike.

Regarding the BB alignment problem mentioned on the other thread, I had a slight misalignment on one of my DT's, but with some work I nontheless got a new BB installed and it has given me no troubles. Perhaps the bearings will wear prematurely, but, hey, it's only a $30 BB and I expect it will still last several years. On the more recent DT I bought, the BB threads were perfectly aligned.
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Old 03-18-07, 06:00 PM
  #1136  
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Originally Posted by LuckyLyndy
McG,
You will love Italy. When you climb those hills, think of the Little Pirate, rest his soul.

While you hit those B&B's, take their advice for traditional Tuscany dinners, especially the bean dishes. Man! So good!

Having real trouble sourcing out a decent price for the correct Octalink/Isis BB for the
Downtube IXNS.

A previous poster sourced the square taper model for $20 plus $10 shipping (ouch!)
With a used dual road crankset off of ebay would be the cheapest, but good quality way to go. Can't one just take of the smallest chainring on a triple and make it work? And I don't think it has to be 9 speed compatible, or does it with the 9 speed drivetrain? That is important to know as well.
9sp Sunrace Juju drivetrain--Man, JuJu? Sounds like a Hunter Thompson sourced product, got to get my Mojo workin'.
And what about the mountain chainrings? I guess the problem with those is not a high enough chainring for the flats.

Lyndon
Salt Lake City
Search this thread for my bike with all upgraded equipment, I got an octalink and connected it to a tiagara double crank. N/M, I'll just copy and paste:

I ordered the Shimano ES71 BB with the octalink and the compatible Shimano Tiagra 52/39 crank set. I'm hoping the octalink spline is much more durable than a square taper. Got the 170 crank length which is actually 5 mm longer, but I feel will be better for me being 6'. I wouldn't have gotten any, but I commute and while my stock set has to be sent back to Downtube shop before they can ship the new part for warranty replacement I cannot lose my bike during the downtime (I refuse to ride the subway )

Since I posted this, I've ridden many miles on the BB and Crank, I love them. I don't have a front derailleur, I can just switch with my hand if I need a real granny gear.

Last edited by BigMacFU; 03-18-07 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 03-18-07, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgurme
Well, I agree that the QC from the factory is not top notch. On the other hand, this is the function of the LBS. Bike shops (at least good ones) do a very thorough inspection of any bike
Overtorquing a BB by 5+ times ratings is far from not being "top notch"; it's damaging that can total ($$) a frame. Same with shipping other components overtightened (headset+hubs+fasteners). If indeed the bike shop setup is mandatory, then better would be shipping parts completely untorqued.

On seat tube greasing, I think when considering the inherent scratching going on by repeated insertions/extractions in the domain of a folding bike, minimizing this is more important than your idea on electrolytic welds.

We're talking about how are these bikes going to be in several years after a lot of use, and where will the mfctr be. This is a relatively new product. I'm questioning if support will be there, and are you going to be tossing this bike because of errors in initial fabrication and setup. I'm glad you acknowledged another case of an improperly threaded BB. I still haven't disassembled my other downtube (nor my friends) to see if that's the case there. Several hours already lost in all of this, for nothing, as the frame will have to be warrantied or refunded.
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Old 03-18-07, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgurme
Well, yes, if you want to use only the inner ring, then 118 might be the optimal chainline on a 105 style crank, though I find that with 115 it's not too bad. Or, if you have the orange roller, you could just use the outer ring (and if you're sure you don't want a second ring, you could just take that one off...)

mcgurme
Thanks mcguerme! I'll shoot for 115 and the roller ball and see how that works since I have a 115 square taper BB laying around.
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Old 03-18-07, 06:36 PM
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Shimano 5500 118X68 O.K.??? Instead of 115X68

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but just can't seem to put together the right combo.

I know somebody said that the UN53 115X68 was correct for the bike.

What about the Shimano 5500? It is 118X68. And I can match it with a 105 Crankset Double 172.5 length?
Or with my size 8 1/2 shoe, should I go for the smaller 165 length?

The crucial question is the difference in spindle length. Is the 118 too long????

Another curveball...I have a TruVativ 9 speed ISIS triple, couldnt I use a 68X113 BB or does the difference again, 113 vs. 115 put it too tight. Could I also remove one of the chanrings and make it a double?

Thanks for everyone's patience.
Lyndon
Salt Lake City

Last edited by LuckyLyndy; 03-18-07 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 03-18-07, 06:40 PM
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Velcro

Here are photos of the Velcro setup. It's far from optimal. The bike falls apart sometimes, but generally stays together. To further secure the Velcro, I had to tie thread around the edges.

Also, the wheels have to be fairly well alligned to actually roll the bike.

I'm going to experiment with flipping the stem and putting a more vertical ahead to improve the fold. I estimate that with the Marathon Racers, the new seat, the new cranks and BB, and all parts stripped off the bike, it should be a liftable 25-26 pounds. It rides well now, so I'm reluctant to fuss too much.
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Old 03-18-07, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pm124
Here are photos of the Velcro setup. It's far from optimal. The bike falls apart sometimes, but generally stays together. To further secure the Velcro, I had to tie thread around the edges.

Also, the wheels have to be fairly well alligned to actually roll the bike.
That's the 3M dual/super lock (which is stronger than velcro) right?

I wonder if it would work better if you put the superlock on top of some of those magnetic discs from dahon.
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Old 03-18-07, 09:37 PM
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On seat tube greasing, I think when considering the inherent scratching going on by repeated insertions/extractions in the domain of a folding bike, minimizing this is more important than your idea on electrolytic welds.
Scratches come from dirt. Dirt sticks to grease. So that's where we disagree, but I'm not going to debate with you - I'll do what I do based on my experience and reading lots of arguments on both sides.

We're talking about how are these bikes going to be in several years after a lot of use, and where will the mfctr be. This is a relatively new product. I'm questioning if support will be there, and are you going to be tossing this bike because of errors in initial fabrication and setup. I'm glad you acknowledged another case of an improperly threaded BB. I still haven't disassembled my other downtube (nor my friends) to see if that's the case there.
My thread problem was not serious enough to be a warranty/defect issue. Also, on both my DT bikes, the threads were torqued correctly (I've replaced both BB)'s. I seriously doubt that the manufacturer would arbitrarily torque the BB at 5x rating. More likely, they put the BB in before the powder coat cured, and there was some bonding that occurred. Or something like that. I just can't really imagine a scenario where arbitrarily someone would do that in assembling a bike. (If you're tempted to respond that "hubs were overtightened," well, hubs are a lot easier to overtighten that applying 300 ft-lbs of torque to a BB inadvertently).

Several hours already lost in all of this, for nothing, as the frame will have to be warrantied or refunded.
You know, I'm sorry that you lost your time, that sucks. But I've lost plenty of time with defective products from plenty of "top-shelf" manufacturers. It happens. However, complaining about it here isn't going to fix it. And furthermore, it isn't generating much sympathy, since it's not even clear that you've given Yan a chance to make the problem right (if it is truly a valid warrantee issue, which is not clear, either).

I'm really signing off this time, so you can respond but I won't be reading it for a few weeks. Best of luck.
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Old 03-18-07, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgurme
arbitrarily torque the BB at 5x rating. More likely, they put the BB in before the powder coat cured, and there was some bonding that occurred. Or something like that. I just can't really imagine
Not looking for your support here. I'm stating what's happened to me has likely happened to a lot more people that haven't gone through the steps to see that they're riding on something most likely faulty. Many people have already noticed that the BB was very difficult to uninstall. Had I not a 25" breaker bar, I couldn't have done it.

Overtorquing = ease of assembly = less cost. Throw a 1/2 impact wrench onto the BB wrench and let it fly. Same with the fasteners that (1 stripped) hold the crank to the BB. Same with other fasteners.

Unlikely that what you've described occurred. No paint inside the BB shell. It makes no sense for an assembly process to exist where paint is applied prior to tapping or covering the BB (inherently making your explanation impossible, as tapping/chasing follows painting, and BB install follows that). Threads should be chased if paint enters, and I've almost always in at least 30 BB installs been able to get them in by hand if greased.

My case isn't important, nor did I present it as such - it will be resolved either with the help of Downtube or the protection offered by my payment method. The case is for the many that also bought into presumable low cost quality, that may do the same thing with this as they would with a Walmart bike in a few years.

edit: also, the BB lockring was impossible to remove with my hozan tool, invalidating the possibility that paint could have resulted in the BB being stuck but not overtorqued. I damaged my tool and also the available notches in the lockring, forcing next step to use breaker bar on the BB wrench.

edit2: I just took off pedals/BB on my Oct 2005 VIII. It's even worse. I half way put in the left cup, install the right cup, and can easily see the gap forming as the two are out of sync. This one is significantly worse than the IXNS I describe above (1 mo. old). I've tried 2 different mfctr new BB's that I've also verified to be hand installable into two other brand new frames. Same procedure on 2 other (new) bikes yields no visible gap while installing drive side cup. I installed one of these BBs into the IXNS with more pressure than I'd like and could feel the axle giving more and more resistance as I'm sure the cartridge was being slightly bent in the installation. I can't be that unique here. The tapping device must be fouled or the cartridge is being distorted during welding (welding after tapping?).

Last edited by jasong; 03-19-07 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 03-19-07, 07:25 AM
  #1144  
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Jasong:

Sorry to hear of your bad experiences. I have been lucky. I have made 5 DT purchases since October 2006. Three new from the company. Two were used from Craigslist. Other than lack of grease in the BBs, I have had no problems.

BB issues on the DTs have been well known and communicated here. The key question is: How have you conveyed these problems to the company, and how have they attempted to resolve your issues? Yan has proven himself many times to stand behind his product. I think if you worked with him constructively you would find satisfaction.

OTOH, if you really don't like the bike, just return it for a refund. Go buy a Bike Friday or something.
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Old 03-19-07, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by makeinu
That's the 3M dual/super lock (which is stronger than velcro) right?

I wonder if it would work better if you put the superlock on top of some of those magnetic discs from dahon.
That's funny. But Dahon magnets work great, actually. So great that when you pull the bike apart, it rips the magnet from it's housing. It is 3M, which is also sufficiently strong that it rips itself of the bike.

The magnets might be an option on the Downtube, but I have no idea how I'd mount them. One option might be to come up with some sort of contraption held in place by the QR skewers. Something like this: 0---x, whcih 0 being a washer, ---- being an aluminum strip, and x being the magnet.

For all of you who have rotated the stem so that it folds within the bike rather than outside, have you had any problems?
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Old 03-19-07, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LuckyLyndy
Another curveball...I have a TruVativ 9 speed ISIS triple, couldnt I use a 68X113 BB or does the difference again, 113 vs. 115 put it too tight. Could I also remove one of the chanrings and make it a double?
Lyndon:

Do you know that you have to change cranks? The comments on here have highly recommended people with VIIIH to change cranks due to the gearing of the internal hub. You have an IXNS. There is no such gearing problem on your bike.

Changing the crank on your bike can bring up chain drop issues, which have also been brought up in this humongous thread. The short wheelbase of the IXNS can mean a more severe angle of the chain as it comes into the chainring, which makes it easier for the chain to inadvertently slip off while riding. So, if you are intent on changing the front crank (e.g. if you know you need a stronger crank), you'll have to install some chain guard device (like the orange thingie on Mcgurme's bike, or a front derailleur on my bike). I'm sorry if I'm complicating this for you, but best that you are aware of all the issues before proceeding.

Last edited by SesameCrunch; 03-19-07 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 03-19-07, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by pm124
That's funny. But Dahon magnets work great, actually. So great that when you pull the bike apart, it rips the magnet from it's housing. It is 3M, which is also sufficiently strong that it rips itself of the bike.

The magnets might be an option on the Downtube, but I have no idea how I'd mount them. One option might be to come up with some sort of contraption held in place by the QR skewers. Something like this: 0---x, whcih 0 being a washer, ---- being an aluminum strip, and x being the magnet.
Well, I have the VIIIH, so only my front wheel has a QR skewer. I'm thinking that I might replace the QR with some regular bolts with large flat surfaces. I guess I'll have to replace the rear bolts too, as they have rounded, not flat, surfaces.

From what you're saying, it seems like the superlock is plagued by the same problem that the dahon magnet's have...namely that it's kind of finicky to get it aligned, but when it's lined up perfectly it is too strong. Perhaps a good solution would be to glue some large plastic discs onto the bolts and put some (comparatively weak) velcro. That should make the whole setup more forgiving without making it too strong.


BTW, does anyone else with the VIIIH notice that when you roll it forwards the cranks turn. It doesn't happen when I'm in direct drive. Does anyone know how to fix this?
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Old 03-19-07, 11:49 AM
  #1148  
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Now they got the VIIIH on sale!
I could've waited a little bit more.
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Old 03-19-07, 12:05 PM
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For anyone considering magnets to hold their frame together, try Lee Valley Tools. Search for rare earth magnets.

https://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,42363,42348
and
https://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,42363,42348
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Old 03-21-07, 12:57 PM
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Anyone know if the Dahon Biologic Post Pump will work on DTs? ' seems like a good accesory to have.
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