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Origami Bull

Old 01-06-24, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by midnite13
As much as I admire the Swift, I think the Bull is closer to my price range (please don't double it !) but I would prefer to have a front block adapter. Are you still planning on incorporating that into the next iteration, and if so, do you have a rough estimate of when those versions might arrive?

To echo others in this thread, thanks Pinigis!
yes, we will include a front block adapter on the next generation. They will probably be available in May 2024. Do you have any other suggestions?
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Old 01-06-24, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis
yes, we will include a front block adapter on the next generation. They will probably be available in May 2024. Do you have any other suggestions?
A 350 or 500 watt rear hub motor kit!
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Old 01-06-24, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101
A 350 or 500 watt rear hub motor kit!
We have generally been installing 500W mid-drives instead so that you get full access to the 9-speed gear set. I am not a fan of hub motors.
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Old 01-06-24, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis
We have generally been installing 500W mid-drives instead so that you get full access to the 9-speed gear set. I am not a fan of hub motors.
Yes, that's definitely the better option. The only issue I think I'd have is that I'd prefer a mid-mounted battery, as I personally despise the rear rack mount type (even though it would probably allow for a larger battery).
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Old 01-06-24, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis
yes, we will include a front block adapter on the next generation. They will probably be available in May 2024. Do you have any other suggestions?
I am noticing more folding bicycle brands and models incorporating the front carry block. There is such a selection of carry bags and solutions from companies such as Brompton and other third-party suppliers to take advantage of. Good idea Paul.
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Old 01-06-24, 05:29 PM
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I bought my first folding bike a decade ago in 2014, and it already had a front block...



In 2018 I bought this frameset and it already had a front block...



Ditto for my two daily drivers today...


Launched in 2015


Gen-2019

In other words, front blocks, both the Dahon and the Brompton types, on folding bikes are nothing new or novel. Why in 2024 some folders still come without them, given their great practicality, popularity and relatively long history, is an enigma. 🤔

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Old 01-06-24, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101
Yes, that's definitely the better option. The only issue I think I'd have is that I'd prefer a mid-mounted battery, as I personally despise the rear rack mount type (even though it would probably allow for a larger battery).
Would it be advisable to put a ~7/8 pound load so close to the hinge? My intuition says it should not be a bit deal since the moment is small, but it would be helpful to get a bike manufacturer's expertise on this.
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Old 01-06-24, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by midnite13
Would it be advisable to put a ~7/8 pound load so close to the hinge? My intuition says it should not be a bit deal since the moment is small, but it would be helpful to get a bike manufacturer's expertise on this.
A small battery would be perfectly fine, considering the actual strength of the frame. Another back up battery would be easy to carry. I don't need massive power, I just want assistance when riding uphill. My lungs just aren't what they used to be, but I'm not in need of a beastly system.
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Old 01-17-24, 01:04 AM
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Just saw this thread. From the originally posted pic of the bike, I see a lot to like:
- Front derailleur mount for a braze-on style.
- Guard on frame to protect chainrings when folded.
- Good kickstand mount, further aft.
- 36 spoke wheels, very durable.
- Disc brakes.
- Nice rack.

With that tire setup, should come standard with a 50/34 double crank and derailleur, then it is perfect.
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Old 01-30-24, 11:25 PM
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How well does the Bull handle hills.
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Old 01-31-24, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by gfc56
How well does the Bull handle hills.
At nearly 29 lbs (13.1kg), with heavy, thick tires and wheels necessary for its higher weight limit, its translational and rotational weight probably ain't great. There are no specs on the cogset T range or chainring, but the 246% listed on the website is not very encouraging. For reference, a mere 11-36T cogset returns a range of 327% so the range on the Bull, I'd say, is quite subpar.

To answer your question, there are no indications are that it's great for climbing, quite the opposite. The upside, however, is that it comes with "the sublime Sensah MX-9 derailleur and gear selector" that cost $5 apiece retail. 😂

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Old 01-31-24, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
At nearly 29 lbs (13.1kg), with heavy, thick tires and wheels necessary for its higher weight limit, it's translational and rotational weight probably ain't great. There are no specs on the cogset T range or chainring, but the 246% listed on the website is not very encouraging either. To answer your question, all indications are that it's not great for climbing. The upside is that you get the sublime Sensah MX-9 derailleur and gear selector that costs $5 apiece retail. 😂
Yeah, but it comes standard with a front derailleur mount, which is way better than 99% of folders, which need to futz with an adaptor, if you can find one, and due to its structural thickness, prevents the derailleur from going as close to the seat tube as with a braze-on, and that's a big deal; I had to grind part of the inner cage flange off (was way overkill thickness) to get my FD inboard enough to use a double crank.

That Bull is 2-3 hours of work away from being perfect. Just add a 50/34 crank, front derailleur, shifter.

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Old 01-31-24, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
​​​​​​For being an engineer, you are quite loose with numbers. 99% of folders don't have an FD hanger? Really? Any engineer worth his/her craft will always be mindful of when his/her data sample may not be representative of the population and therefore inference about the population from the sample is flawed. Your data coming from North America, a wasteland of folders, can hardly be representative.

I own eight (8) folding bikes/frames, of which seven (7) or 87.5% have an FD hanger. I make no inference about the population from my sample. The FD hanger goes unused cuz I jettisoned 2x drivetrains a good half a decade ago.


My last hurrah with 2x drivetrains (Shimano 105 5800) and drop bars. That was 2018.
​​​​​​
And you still haven't told us what medium- or short-cage RD specifically you will mate to your 50/34 crankset. Engineers are not theoreticians, idle abstractionists. We talk in practical specifics. And we talk in terms of tradeoffs and competing alternatives. What are the tradeoffs and alternatives to your 50/34 solution?
First, you're right about my guess, I was wrong, and sit corrected. I'm actually quite glad to be wrong about this, by the way.

The rear derailleur I am using on my (almost 2 year operational and many miles) Dahon Speed, 50/34 11-30 (7 speed) is a Shimano Tourney TX (6/7 speed), GS (medium) length, with integral claw mount, $13 new at LBS. (Earlier frame does not have rear derailleur mount, that was only one they had with integral claw. Now I know I could just get a threaded claw and use any RD.) I'm hoping it will work if I swap out the freehub body and shifter and go 8 speeds; I bought it well before I did the conversion, only as a backup for when the original Dahon compact RD failed or I replaced it. (I had already installed one after buying another Speed with an (unknown) jammed chain link, took it for a test ride, in 3 feet of riding it tore apart the (plastic linkage) Dahon RD, I walked it home, replaced with the Tourney, vast improvement in shifting, reversed shifting back to "normal" from backwards Rapid-Rise, same gripshift (just labeled wrong now).

Tradeoffs to my setup? I have to think about that as it has worked so well. Really transformed my bike on uphills, and I haven't even gone lower on the big cog yet. My Litepro front derailleur adaptor (older style, sold by ThorBikes) won't fit a shimano FD, the double-shear linkage interferes with the mounting point, I only discovered this after searching for an alternate to the Microshift FD which fits because it has a more compact cantilevered linkage (I just got lucky ordering it, didn't know), but **STIFF** FD spring, I had to go from left gripshift to old shimano trigger ($5 used), and I still need to push that with my right thumb straight, not left thumb sideways, when upshifting to the big ring. My hope is to improve that, but I can live with it. The crank has been a dream, most especially the hollowtech II style with external bearings, I'm a convert. The original single crank, dead straight, but would drop chain on occasion, requiring messy hand remount; Now, on occasional chaindrop (usually when shifting while hitting an unseen pothole or something), I simply move the front derailleur and it's right back on. That alone was worth the conversion. Based on a local who has an extensive website devoted to his tours on a Bike Friday NWT, if I do extensive touring with 20% climbs like he has, I might want a lower-low, he went down to 15 gear inches. He also worked with BF to swap out the fork and rear triangle in order to go to discs, for same grades going down, and long.

Sorry the following pic is a bit fuzzy, I had just got my first smartphone and wasn't good at focusing:


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Old 01-31-24, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
...
The rear derailleur I am using on my (almost 2 year operational and many miles) Dahon Speed, 50/34 11-30 (7 speed) is a Shimano Tourney TX (6/7 speed), GS (medium) length...
Pardon my bewilderment, but I cannot understand your attachment, fixation even, with a 2x 50/34 double-crank setup when a 1x setup is simpler, lighter and very possibly less expensive while returning essentially the same gearing range. The only area where the 1X solution trails is in the spacing of the individual gears, but on the up side it avoids the inefficiency of redundant gears and gears unused due to the inherent cross-chaining of 2x. KISS.

Your 2x, 22-90GI



A 1X, 22-90GI


What medium-cage RD can span a 11-46T cogset nominally or in practice? Here's a few:
  • Shimano RD-M6000-GS
  • Shimano RD-M7000-GS
  • Shimano RD-M8000-GS
  • Shimano RD-M9000-GS

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Old 01-31-24, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Just saw this thread. From the originally posted pic of the bike, I see a lot to like:
- Front derailleur mount for a braze-on style.
- Guard on frame to protect chainrings when folded.
- Good kickstand mount, further aft.
- 36 spoke wheels, very durable.
- Disc brakes.
- Nice rack.

With that tire setup, should come standard with a 50/34 double crank and derailleur, then it is perfect.
There just isnít a real advantage in a 2x drivetrain vs a 1x. You get added weight and completely fit some redundant gear ratios. If you really need a wider gear range you can achieve it with a 1x set with a wider range.
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Old 01-31-24, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gfc56
How well does the Bull handle hills.
I havenít encountered a hill that we couldnít tackle yet. But, a lot depends on the rider
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Old 01-31-24, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
At nearly 29 lbs (13.1kg), with heavy, thick tires and wheels necessary for its higher weight limit, its translational and rotational weight probably ain't great. There are no specs on the cogset T range or chainring, but the 246% listed on the website is not very encouraging. For reference, a mere 11-36T cogset returns a range of 327% so the range on the Bull, I'd say, is quite subpar.

To answer your question, there are no indications are that it's great for climbing, quite the opposite. The upside, however, is that it comes with "the sublime Sensah MX-9 derailleur and gear selector" that cost $5 apiece retail. 😂
sweet! I will send you $100 as n d you can send me 20 derailleurs and gear selectors.
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Old 01-31-24, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Apparently you, a wholesale buyer, cannot get these low prices for the sublime Sensah parts. And as a result, your buyers suffer from poor parts at inflated prices. Real sweet.
but you can get them for me. Thanks! You are just a selfless person arenít you?
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Old 01-31-24, 09:44 PM
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Apparently you, a wholesale buyer, cannot get these low prices for the sublime Sensah parts. And as a result, your buyers suffer from poor parts at inflated prices with hyperbolic, perhaps even deceptive rhetoric on your product pages. Real sweet.
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Old 02-01-24, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Pardon my bewilderment, but I cannot understand your attachment, fixation even, with a 2x 50/34 double-crank setup when a 1x setup is simpler, lighter and very possibly less expensive while returning essentially the same gearing range. The only area where the 1X solution trails is in the spacing of the individual gears, but on the up side it avoids the inefficiency of redundant gears and gears unused due to the inherent cross-chaining of 2x. KISS.

Your 2x, 22-90GI



A 1X, 22-90GI


What medium-cage RD can span a 11-46T cogset nominally or in practice? Here's a few:
  • Shimano RD-M6000-GS
  • Shimano RD-M7000-GS
  • Shimano RD-M8000-GS
Let me be clear. 1Xs are awsome. I first thought it was a silly trend, or because the inner chainring was needed for electric mid-drive. But then I realized that 1Xs have no duplicate gears. My setup has 5 dupes in the middle. 1X is superior.

Now, with regard to my conversion, first off, I was not much aware of 1Xs when I did the conversion, and most especially had not realized the above. But I still would not have gone 1X, because I have 20" wheels, and even with a GS derailleur, it would be mighty close to the ground and laterally to the tire, it can be done, but I wanted something less damage-prone. Notably, a fellow I met who bought a titanium Burke 20 (was not riding it at the time), said he hates the 1X setup for exactly that reason, prefers my setup. I emailed him all the details.

A 52 x 11-50 would give me very close gearing and range to what I have now with the double. But I think its very iffy that a 50 cog would package without the derailleur issues with the ground and tire. I think on one of the other threads, someone has done so, it's close, but clears. Definitely below the rim, so if they get a flat, the derailleur will drag if in the vertical position.

I also love the front derailleur for easy correction of a dropped chain.

A small downside to 1X cassettes to me, is that to get sufficient lateral stiffness on the low cogs, they are riveted to the higher ones (and further out radially), and this makes the cassette a pain to clean, rather than the cogs coming right apart, and perhaps impossible to replace any individual cog.

But for larger wheel bikes than 20", 1X is the way to go, no question, unless it doesn't give enough gear range, and I think that would mostly apply to a heavy-loaded road touring bike, needing a great low, and high-high. With big wheels (700c x 32), running the numbers, the same setup, 52 x 11-50, plenty high but not low enough, and going to a smaller 'ring like a 38 or 36, that's gonna give 20" low and just barely enough high, not racer high. If they need a lower-low for climbing (and from what I read from serious tourers in mountains, it will), then not enough high, I think it would need a double crank. I wish that were not the case, because as I said, 1X is far more brilliant than I first perceived. Often even the best systems still have limitations.

Also, my bike has 130mm OLD, I don't know if there are 1X cassettes that package on that and not 135mm. In this world of choices, probably.

EDIT: Notable note: Bike Friday is fairly quick to innovate and adopt new parts on their 20" bikes; They have gone from their early 3X systems to 2X. They do offer 1X, but it's with an old-school 9-speed cassette, not super-range 1Xs used on larger bikes, and they are advertised as "Some climbing, light loads, simplicity with range", and the 2X says "Serious climbing, possibly heavy loads." That's me, even if not touring yet, my city has steeps, and I haul a full load of groceries in the 4 panniers. Bike Friday, whether you like their folding style or not (me not), knows touring, that's still the largest market for them. And they haven't gone to super-wide 1X on their 20" bikes, they have much greater ground clearance on the rear derailleurs, and that's telling. My guess is their standard 2X setup is similar to mine but with a bigger low cog, like 34. I have 400% gearing with my 2X, but others on here say 526% is minimum for touring; As such, I'm sure BF would love to do a wider cassette to serve that market, and if anyone can do it, they will, but it may be too problematic with 20" wheels. My 21-85" is sacrificing mostly top end, perhaps I can get by with the 85" high (so far I have). And understand, my mindset most of my life has been hyper mods, In my early 20s I swapped out the anemic 200 cubic inch V6 in my malibu wagon for a mild performance 350 V8 with a police package suspension. And I'm open to those things, but these days, if possible, tend to look at respected builders of similar things and see how they work first.

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Old 02-01-24, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Apparently you, a wholesale buyer, cannot get these low prices for the sublime Sensah parts. And as a result, your buyers suffer from poor parts at inflated prices with hyperbolic, perhaps even deceptive rhetoric on your product pages. Real sweet.
what exactly is your defect? You claim that you can buy derailleurs and gear selectors for $5 then refuse to do so.

How much time have you spent using the Sensah MX9 to develop your expert opinion on it? I will bet itís grand total of NONE. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 02-01-24, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis
There just isnít a real advantage in a 2x drivetrain vs a 1x. You get added weight and completely fit some redundant gear ratios. If you really need a wider gear range you can achieve it with a 1x set with a wider range.
Yes, except on a 20" wheel. The larger-section tires on the Bull provide greater rear derailleur ground clearance, but then even less in lateral clearance due to the greater width of said tires. Listen, I'd LOVE to be able to fit a super-wide range cassette on a 20". Others on here have, and have photos of the results, it's very iffy.

The Bull appears to have the largest cassette it can handle, that rear derailleur doesn't want to go lower. The frame already has a front derailleur mount. The rear derailleur is capable of handling 2X. 50/34 will give you the same low gear as having a 50T cog in back. Yowza! You don't even need to buy a new chain, because neither biggest chainring nor cog is getting larger.

Bigger wheels? 1X super-wide range is much more feasible.

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Old 02-01-24, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Yes, except on a 20" wheel. The larger-section tires on the Bull provide greater rear derailleur ground clearance, but then even less in lateral clearance due to the greater width of said tires. Listen, I'd LOVE to be able to fit a super-wide range cassette on a 20". Others on here have, and have photos of the results, it's very iffy.

The Bull appears to have the largest cassette it can handle, that rear derailleur doesn't want to go lower. The frame already has a front derailleur mount. The rear derailleur is capable of handling 2X. 50/34 will give you the same low gear as having a 50T cog in back. Yowza! You don't even need to buy a new chain, because neither biggest chainring nor cog is getting larger.

Bigger wheels? 1X super-wide range is much more feasible.
People have different needs and wants, thatís why we provide the option to add the front derailleur.
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Old 02-02-24, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis
People have different needs and wants, thatís why we provide the option to add the front derailleur.
I think you're missing my point.

First, what I'm saying is that the bike is an excellent palette, on which to make a superior bike. Think of it as a masterpiece painting that is 95% complete. Filling in the other 5% makes more difference on the whole than just 5%.

Second, many product makers used to make products that were simply adequate for the market. And most people are not up to major modifications. But that left the market open for other product makers who were more obsessed with perfection, to come in and snatch the market. Look at the US automakers, selling cars of poor design and quality, then japanese started to sell cars is the US of good quality, germany sold cars of good quality and superior design, started to take market share. Then japan rolled out cars of excellent quality AND design; A guy I used to work with, worked at Mercedes-Benz USA, their management said of Lexus, "They have no tradition!" Then they brought in an LS400 to their garage, and were able to balance a nickel on the engine while the throttle was slowly advanced, just like the TV commercial, and they were like "HOLY SH_T!" That woke them up, and they started trying harder. I used to be a car modifier to a high degree, but cars are so good and competitive now, I would need to do nothing. My point being...

The Bull looks to be competitive for the market with the gearing range offered. But it would blow away the competition with 2X gearing, for cost to the manufacturer, I am guessing, under $50 in parts (wholesale prices), and only additional labor of installing a front derailleur and shifter. What would the value to the market be? I am guessing, more than $50, and that's increased profit. Remember, the average biker won't do the conversion, and the parts would cost retail about $150, so the bike being equipped that way from the factory, can sell for $150 more, and still yield plenty more profit to the maker. And if Origami doesn't offer it, someone else will. Like Zizzo. I still can't believe Dahon doesn't offer a 20" folder with 2X and discs at a reasonable price. But they did offer the Formula 18 with that around 2014, but a) road 2X 130 BCD crank, didn't offer that much lower a gear, and b) was very premium priced at $1200-$1500, if I recall correctly, about 3X the price of the 1X bike on which it was based, they got greedy. Which brings me to...

The Sin of Premium Pricing, one of the Five Deadly Business Sins; It creates a perfect opportunity for competitors to enter the market and undercut you for the same product.

So, swing for the fences in product design, offer the BEST product you can ("Insanely Great" has worked for Apple), and price reasonably to discourage competition.

But hey, it's your business or who you are buying from. (From posts I have seen here, I gather that you are a dealer?)

You should read Drucker's "Five Deadly Sins in Business", been around for decades, and all the lessons still apply. (Others have copied Drucker's work and republished under Seven Sins..., etc.) Summary:

https://www.apqc.org/blog/druckers-f...-sins-business

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-02-24 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 02-02-24, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis
what exactly is your defect? You claim that you can buy derailleurs and gear selectors for $5 then refuse to do so.

How much time have you spent using the Sensah MX9 to develop your expert opinion on it? I will bet itís grand total of NONE. Correct me if I am wrong.
What's my defect? That's unusual English usage. Come again? You actually expected me to become your supplier? 😂

None, you are right. I have zero experience with Sensah, and for good reason. They are cheaply made, shift a bit poorly, need to be readjusted regularly. How do I know this? From the myriad comments on the various folding bike groups and fora I participate here in Indonesia.

Plus I wouldn't want to bargain with my physical integrity. These sublime Sensah jobs can also snap from nothing more than a thin, flimsy plastic bag getting tangled in the chain, putting one's life in danger. Just a few days ago this popped up on the largest Indonesia FB folder group. Yikes!


A sublime Sensah RD
​​​​​​
​​​Lest you imagine I make these things up, here is the link to the post at id-foldingbike.

I don't begrudge your low pricing or any component per se. Instead I begrudge your insults and affronts to the intelligence, and your slippery marketing rethoric.

Last edited by Ron Damon; 02-02-24 at 02:27 AM.
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