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Origami Swift - Thoughts, Ideas For a New Version of a Classic

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Origami Swift - Thoughts, Ideas For a New Version of a Classic

Old 03-22-22, 02:31 PM
  #51  
joey buzzard
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On gearing...

Personally I like as large a gear range as possible. I've got a 36t lowest gear on at the moment, but I'm thinking I'll tinker with a goat link and try to see if I can get a 42t on there next time I change out my cassette. I've been using a long enough cage derailleur to accommodate the 36t for years now without any issues, even during the period when I lived four kilometers up a steep rock-strewn dry riverbed which served as the road to the village down the mountain where I lived. And the low gears certainly helped getting back up the track.

I run a single up front. I like these Chinese Litepro chainrings.




I prefer the 56t, though these ship in 58t as well as several smaller more standard sizes. I like the integral monocoque chain guard. Is it possible to kit out the Swift with these? Do you think you'll run a single chainring up front?

The Xootr Swift came with an 8 speed SRAM derailleur with grip shift. I became a big fan of that system. I've got Shimano trigger shift on the bike now, but I'm switching back soon. The grip shift worked well with the flat bars.

For me 11-36t on the back for climbing with 1x56t up front for a few more gear inches is what I like.

I'm intrigued by the new Micro spline systems that've been introduced and I'd love to try one out on 20" wheels, but these have to come way-way down in price before I'd consider mounting one. Also wish these weren't limited to 12 or 13 speed. Seems fewer teeth and thinner chains will will wear out more quickly. I wish SRAM or Shimano would come out with an 8speed version of this novel technology and charge a much more reasonable amount of money, but that'll be a long time coming methinks.

Someone else mentioned in an earlier comment that Xootr provided a thingymabob-band-on derailleur hanger which was specially adapted to clamp around the bike's oversized seat tube. As I love simplicity it's not my cup of tea to run a front derailleur, but maybe some facility to add one might please some people? Would you consider adding a braze on for that,.or maybe offering another accessory? I don't know why some people want such a thing. I like low gears because I'm a bit of a mentalist nutter about climbing the steepest highest mountain roads I can find, but nevertheless it's always nice to have options available for those who want to customise.

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Old 03-22-22, 02:48 PM
  #52  
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Be careful with a big rear cog--you'll quickly run out of ground clearance for the derailer. I mocked this up on my BF, and a 46t cog put the cog too close to the ground for my comfort.

If you want a lower gear for climbing, you could always run two front rings with no front derailer--just manually move the chain over when you're done with the climbing.

Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
On gearing...

Personally I like as large a gear range as possible. I've got a 36t lowest gear on at the moment, but I'm thinking I'll tinker with a goat link and try to see if I can get a 42t on there next time I change out my cassette. I've been using a long enough cage derailleur to accommodate the 36t for years now without any issues, even during the period when I lived four kilometers up a steep rock-strewn dry riverbed which served as the road to the village down the mountain where I lived. And the low gears certainly helped getting back up the track.

I run a single up front. I like these Chinese Litepro chainrings.




I prefer the 56t, though these ship in 58t as well as several smaller more standard sizes. I like the integral monocoque chain guard. Is it possible to kit out the Swift with these? Do you think you'll run a single chainring up front?

The Xootr Swift came with an 8 speed SRAM derailleur with grip shift. I became a big fan of that system. I've got Shimano trigger shift on the bike now, but I'm switching back soon. The grip shift worked well with the flat bars.

For me 11-36t on the back for climbing with 1x56t up front for a few more gear inches is what I like.

I'm intrigued by the new Micro spline systems that've been introduced and I'd love to try one out on 20" wheels, but these have to come way-way down in price before I'd consider mounting one. Also wish these weren't limited to 12 or 13 speed. Seems fewer teeth and thinner chains will will wear out more quickly. I wish SRAM or Shimano would come out with an 8speed version of this novel technology and charge a much more reasonable amount of money, but that'll be a long time coming methinks.

Someone else mentioned in an earlier comment that Xootr provided a thingymabob-band-on derailleur hanger which was specially adapted to clamp around the bike's oversized seat tube. As I love simplicity it's not my cup of tea to run a front derailleur, but maybe some facility to add one might please some people? Would you consider adding a braze on for that,.or maybe offering another accessory? I don't know why some people want such a thing. I like low gears because I'm a bit of a mentalist nutter about climbing the steepest highest mountain roads I can find, but nevertheless it's always nice to have options available for those who want to customise.
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Old 03-22-22, 04:28 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
On gearing...

Personally I like as large a gear range as possible. I've got a 36t lowest gear on at the moment, but I'm thinking I'll tinker with a goat link and try to see if I can get a 42t on there next time I change out my cassette. I've been using a long enough cage derailleur to accommodate the 36t for years now without any issues, even during the period when I lived four kilometers up a steep rock-strewn dry riverbed which served as the road to the village down the mountain where I lived. And the low gears certainly helped getting back up the track.
I also like a large gear range.

But on a small wheel bike, increasing the biggest cog isn't the best way to do it because the obtained gear inches become too small.

A better solution is reducing the size of the smallest cog to 10t or 9t what avoid the need of a bigger chainring.

Shimano Microspline, SRAM XD/XDR and Campagnolo N3W are the solution to allow 10t and 9t cogs.
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Old 03-23-22, 12:19 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
Be careful with a big rear cog--you'll quickly run out of ground clearance for the derailer. I mocked this up on my BF, and a 46t cog put the cog too close to the ground for my comfort.

If you want a lower gear for climbing, you could always run two front rings with no front derailer--just manually move the chain over when you're done with the climbing.
Interesting idea, but I prefer not to handle the chain if I can help it. I very much like the 1x upfront system. My current 36t derailleur seems to have some clearance yet.




I'm hoping that either I can fit the goat-link thingy on or else maybe it mightn't even be necessary. I've read that sometimes it's possible to exceed the supposed capacity of a rear derailleur by a few teeth. We'll see.

IF I'm remembering it right the Xootr version shipped with 52t up front backed up by an 11-28t cassette. This worked quite well from my pov and I rode it untill I wore it out, then replaced it with an 11-36t rear coupled with 56t up front which I thought was even better.

Originally Posted by Jipe View Post
I also like a large gear range.

But on a small wheel bike, increasing the biggest cog isn't the best way to do it because the obtained gear inches become too small.

A better solution is reducing the size of the smallest cog to 10t or 9t what avoid the need of a bigger chainring.

Shimano Microspline, SRAM XD/XDR and Campagnolo N3W are the solution to allow 10t and 9t cogs.
As I said, I'm very curious about the new mega-range derailleur systems. I've no experience though with 12 and 13 speed groupsets. Wish the technology would trickle down to 9bor 19 speed, but seems that'll be a long time coming if it ever does. Nevertheless, maybe worth experimenting with. I imagine that these might add signicantly to the price of an assembled bike, but maybe it's worth piningus llooking into and costing?
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Old 03-23-22, 04:14 PM
  #55  
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The 52t chainring and 9-32 cassette of the Birdy Touring with wheel diameter close to the one of the swift when using 50mm wide tires provides nice gear inches and a large enough range to ride fast on the flat and climb steep slopes.
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Old 03-29-22, 03:53 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Yes, there will be a luggage block on the head tube, just like the Lotus. I had never considered the messenger-bike market, but I like your analysis of it.

Since there's to be a front block for mounting stuff, perhaps an aftermarket large front rack which quickly transforms the bike into something similar to a short-john cargo bike could he an interesting feature to look at offering?

Such may prove popular with some bike messengers if the carrying capacity were large enough that it would accommodate a parcel or a courier bag, but could be added on or removed quickly (I'm thinking hex keys) when not desired/needed. Such a feature might be good for other people who want to use the bike for shopping, picnics in the park, moving unwieldly items which would otherwise be challenging to carry by bike, etc.

Of course inevitably some dickhead like my friend Scott will come along and use such a feature for carrying loud speakers and then blast out Led Zeppelin and Hawkwind at high volume as he's pedalling, rupturing the peace with loud rock and roll wherever he goes, but that's humanity for ya! (And at least in Scott's case it won't be reggaeton or drum and base).

Another thought: I really don't like the placement of the bottle mount on the Swift. A bottle cage really cramps the front of the bike there.


Maybe brazed on mounts on the top tube would be a be a better, more ergonomic solution?

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Old 03-29-22, 04:41 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
As I said, I'm very curious about the new mega-range derailleur systems. I've no experience though with 12 and 13 speed groupsets. Wish the technology would trickle down to 9bor 19 speed, but seems that'll be a long time coming if it ever does. Nevertheless, maybe worth experimenting with. I imagine that these might add signicantly to the price of an assembled bike, but maybe it's worth piningus llooking into and costing?
I won’t bother you with my usual advocacy of Microshift Advent, but have you seen the Juvenile range by Sunrace? They have what appears to be a very short cage 9 speed rear mech with a max capacity of 42T - https://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/rdm903

Would this meet your requirements? They also sell 11-42T 9 speed cassettes too, no funny hub necessary.
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Old 03-29-22, 10:11 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
Since there's to be a front block for mounting stuff, perhaps an aftermarket large front rack which quickly transforms the bike into something similar to a short-john cargo bike could he an interesting feature to look at offering?

Such may prove popular with some bike messengers if the carrying capacity were large enough that it would accommodate a parcel or a courier bag, but could be added on or removed quickly (I'm thinking hex keys) when not desired/needed. Such a feature might be good for other people who want to use the bike for shopping, picnics in the park, moving unwieldly items which would otherwise be challenging to carry by bike, etc.

Another thought: I really don't like the placement of the bottle mount on the Swift. A bottle cage really cramps the front of the bike there.


Maybe brazed on mounts on the top tube would be a better, more ergonomic solution?
I can sort of do the rack thing now. I added a Brompton luggage block to the front of my Swift. It works OK, but there are potential problems with the cables when steering. These problems are partly due to some Brompton bags having additional rear stuff on them, like bottle holders. I like the Brompton block system because you can quickly remove the bags. On the Brompton, cabling is pulled further back than Dahon bikes that fold in the middle. Pinigis may be able to mount the cables on the new Swift similar to the Brompton. Brompton limits the system to 10Kg. I run up against that limitation when I use my Bompton for shopping trips. I like usoong the Brompton because I take it into the store in shopping cart mode. Both bikes, Brompton and Swift, kind of handle similarly with large loads on the luggage block.. They tend to get less stable somewhere over 25 pounds, I am guessing here, but I particularly notice it as I approach 30 pounds. Some of this is due to the stabilty of my bags, themselves. Presumably, the weak link for the Brompton or Dahon block is at the attachment screws. Brompton uses M5. I am unsure if going to M6 could move the allowable load close to 15Kg, which would be a cool improvement. The Dahon block has the advantage of using a longer cantilever mount, probably to mitigate the cable problems, but that comes at the expense of the load capacity, which is half of the Brompton's.

To add a rack like John cargo rack, you need additional support along the main tube for the attachment of a counter arm like on Moulton racks. If it came to one or another, I like the Brompton mount. You could have both, with the Swift mounting the rack to the screws at the front of the mounting block and on the side of the main tube to prevent rotation of the rack.
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Old 03-29-22, 02:05 PM
  #59  
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I fully agree with you, the Brompton font block is the best option. For people who want a font rack, its possible to just mount a rack on the block (either the removable frame of a .Brompton bag or a special front rack for Brompton).

I installed such block on my Moulton and Birdy.

For the cables, the trick used by Brompton to avoid interference between the cables and front bag is using a special brake caliper with its cable output down left instead of top right as on all standard brake calipers.

I also loaded it well above the maximum allowed 10kg (do not know exactly how much, maybe 14-15kg max) and it doesn't cause problems.

What causes problems is the lack of rigidity in the block mounting, it must be totally rigid to avoid any wobbling of the bag wrt. the frame.

I also noticed that its not so much the weight that the width of what is carried that affect the behavior of the bike: a50cm wide bag, which is wider than the big Brompton bags that are about 40cm wide has an effect on the bike behavior even if it is not very heavy (6-7kg in my case).
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Old 03-29-22, 04:27 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Reddleman View Post
I won’t bother you with my usual advocacy of Microshift Advent, but have you seen the Juvenile range by Sunrace? They have what appears to be a very short cage 9 speed rear mech with a max capacity of 42T - https://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/rdm903

Would this meet your requirements? They also sell 11-42T 9 speed cassettes too, no funny hub necessary.

Thanks for the suggestion, Reddleman. I had considered Microshift and Sunrace as well. Have you used any Sunrace derailleur personally? Or the AdventX? Would you recommend one over the other? I notice that they both make twist shifters as well. Very interesting! One of these might solve my dilema.
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Old 03-29-22, 04:28 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Jipe View Post
I fully agree with you, the Brompton font block is the best option. For people who want a font rack, its possible to just mount a rack on the block (either the removable frame of a .Brompton bag or a special front rack for Brompton).

I installed such block on my Moulton and Birdy.

For the cables, the trick used by Brompton to avoid interference between the cables and front bag is using a special brake caliper with its cable output down left instead of top right as on all standard brake calipers.

I also loaded it well above the maximum allowed 10kg (do not know exactly how much, maybe 14-15kg max) and it doesn't cause problems.

What causes problems is the lack of rigidity in the block mounting, it must be totally rigid to avoid any wobbling of the bag wrt. the frame.

I also noticed that its not so much the weight that the width of what is carried that affect the behavior of the bike: a50cm wide bag, which is wider than the big Brompton bags that are about 40cm wide has an effect on the bike behavior even if it is not very heavy (6-7kg in my case).
I may take a look at the cables n the Swift. Currently, they are stock and run under the main tube in the stock cable guides. I do need a longer front brake cable anyway. However, the same "trick" as you say would release the cables from under the main tube. They may then not even need to be replaced. They do enter the back triangle on the opposite side. Worth looking into. I assume that with side folders they need extra slack in front to make the fold. I bring it up because I recently purchased a Zizzo Liberte and plan to add a block to it, a Litepro, like your Birdy.

I do not believe the instability with weight is due to the block. The DIY one on Swift is over built if anything. The one on the Brompton came stock. You're probably right about the bags. I have an O bag, a mini O bag, a Brompton basket bag a couple baskets that are modified to fit on the blocks. The mini O and full size O bags do not have frames. Usually I notice it most with the basket bag coming home from the supermarket, It's usually overloaded somewhat. I measured it a time or two, and it was close to 30 pounds. That bag has a frame and a brace, but the loads move, and it may flex as well.
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Old 03-29-22, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
Thanks for the suggestion, Reddleman. I had considered Microshift and Sunrace as well. Have you used any Sunrace derailleur personally? Or the AdventX? Would you recommend one over the other? I notice that they both make twist shifters as well. Very interesting! One of these might solve my dilema.
I’ve not used Microshift’s Advent X, just Advent, and suspect based on the already limited clearance with Advent that the extra capacity and bigger jockey wheel on Advent X wouldn’t play nicely with 406 wheels.

I’ve no particular experience with Sunrace lately but unlike Advent which requires its own shifters it looks like that Sunrace range plays nicely with standard Shimano shift ratios, so grip shifts should work on it? Microshift produce a lot of different shifters for Advent, but grip shifts aren’t one of them. Maybe have a look for some kids MTB reviews and see what they say?
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Old 03-29-22, 06:38 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Peter is not sold on disc brakes, but I am, so it is likely that we will use hydraulic disc brakes to allow for either 406 or 451 wheels. I am looking at 10 speeds initially, but we could revise that up or down as needed.

I am looking at options for straight, bullhorn, and drop bars, but would be interested to hear what folks prefer.

Hey Pinigis,

If this becomes a thing, I'll likely order one.
While I have a sentimental attachment to my Xootr Swift, this new design might be my dream bike.
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Old 03-30-22, 03:10 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta View Post
I may take a look at the cables n the Swift. Currently, they are stock and run under the main tube in the stock cable guides. I do need a longer front brake cable anyway. However, the same "trick" as you say would release the cables from under the main tube. They may then not even need to be replaced. They do enter the back triangle on the opposite side. Worth looking into. I assume that with side folders they need extra slack in front to make the fold. I bring it up because I recently purchased a Zizzo Liberte and plan to add a block to it, a Litepro, like your Birdy.

I do not believe the instability with weight is due to the block. The DIY one on Swift is over built if anything. The one on the Brompton came stock. You're probably right about the bags. I have an O bag, a mini O bag, a Brompton basket bag a couple baskets that are modified to fit on the blocks. The mini O and full size O bags do not have frames. Usually I notice it most with the basket bag coming home from the supermarket, It's usually overloaded somewhat. I measured it a time or two, and it was close to 30 pounds. That bag has a frame and a brace, but the loads move, and it may flex as well.
The instability with a wide bag (Radical Design Roltoptas that allow to transport things up to 50cm wide) also happen on the Brompton itself.

On my Birdy, mounted the Brompton block in two ways:
- on my Birdy III with the H&H adapter.
- on my Ti Birdy I just drilled two holes in the very thick titanium head tube and attached the block with two bolts.
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Old 03-30-22, 05:01 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Reddleman View Post
I’ve not used Microshift’s Advent X, just Advent, and suspect based on the already limited clearance with Advent that the extra capacity and bigger jockey wheel on Advent X wouldn’t play nicely with 406 wheels.

I’ve no particular experience with Sunrace lately but unlike Advent which requires its own shifters it looks like that Sunrace range plays nicely with standard Shimano shift ratios, so grip shifts should work on it? Microshift produce a lot of different shifters for Advent, but grip shifts aren’t one of them. Maybe have a look for some kids MTB reviews and see what they say?

Thanks for your insights. These have been useful to me. I'm now leaning toward the Sunrace M9 derailleur. I'll post some pics if and when I get it installed on my bike then let you know my own thoughts about it.

Cheers!
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Old 04-05-22, 09:32 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Reddleman View Post
I won’t bother you with my usual advocacy of Microshift Advent, but have you seen the Juvenile range by Sunrace? They have what appears to be a very short cage 9 speed rear mech with a max capacity of 42T - https://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/rdm903

Would this meet your requirements? They also sell 11-42T 9 speed cassettes too, no funny hub necessary.

Well, this arrived in the post today.




Still don't have the big cassette to go with it, so it'll be at least another few days before I mount it, but after I do I'll write an update with my thoughts. Out of the box it looks impressive.
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Old 04-05-22, 07:05 PM
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Interesting, is that the RDM900 (adult size) or the kids RDM93? It looks like the former, in which case you’ll probably have similar clearance to my Microshift Advent setups.
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Old 04-06-22, 12:45 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Reddleman View Post
Interesting, is that the RDM900 (adult size) or the kids RDM93? It looks like the former, in which case you’ll probably have similar clearance to my Microshift Advent setups.

Damn, Seems that you're correct. Hope that it's not too long! Guess we'll have to see how she unfolds once I put it on the bike.
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Old 05-01-22, 11:04 AM
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I came across this thread thanks to the guy who posted in the commuter forum. The Swift looks like a great design. As someone who is casually interested, I looked at the Swift thread and the Origami website. I can see how Origami is not really operating at the price point for some of your wish lists. So what I'd ask for that would still fit their price point is an aluminum frame with a replaceable derailleur hanger, disk brakes, and clearance for BMX street tires (maybe not at the same time as fenders). And some good graphics, because that's a big tube. The Xootr decal was pretty good. Maybe offer two builds, a BMX build with single speed and 406 and a geared build with 451, and also frame only.

My wish list version frame would have thru axles, SRAM UDH and flat mount brakes. Basically gravel bike standard. And lots of braze ons. I don't see how you do that build for an Origami price, though

What do you folding bike guys usually do about frame sizes? This would be an easy one, just different length booms.
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Old 05-01-22, 11:54 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Reddleman View Post
I won’t bother you with my usual advocacy of Microshift Advent, but have you seen the Juvenile range by Sunrace? They have what appears to be a very short cage 9 speed rear mech with a max capacity of 42T.
I'm not real swift (pun) with the whole derailleur thing, but I thought the Shimano Zee FR* was the default option for small-wheel-big-cog-short-cage.



*Yeah, Shimano sez 36T max - but, and it's a big but, the Zee was designed for mountain bikes with all manner of long-travel rear suspension designs. On a hardtail, 40T easy.

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Old 05-01-22, 12:24 PM
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Zee was discontinued this year.
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Old 05-01-22, 02:40 PM
  #72  
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Since the last time I posted on this thread, Microshift bought out a super short arm derailleur option for their Advent groupset, designed to take 11-38T cassettes on 20” wheeled kid’s MTBs. That should help solve the Zee shaped gap in the market?
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Old 05-01-22, 05:40 PM
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This is a suggestion thread for a POSSIBLE Swift rebirth, NOT a thread on Swift maintenance and upgrades. You people hijacked the damn thread.
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Old 05-01-22, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101 View Post
This is a suggestion thread for a POSSIBLE Swift rebirth, NOT a thread on Swift maintenance and upgrades. You people hijacked the damn thread.

You've got a point.

Then again I think it's interesting to know about what sort of gearing is available today. The Xootr iteration came with s pretty deslcent but by no means flash 8speed set up. Since then shifting technology has advanced so that wider gear ranges are possible and disc brakes have become more or less standard.

This is all kinda relevant, no?

Just to throw out another tangent, I wonder what impact China's zero-Covid policy is having on bike production over there at the moment? Could their extreme public health policies turn into a spanner in the works so to speak?
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Old 05-23-22, 09:32 AM
  #75  
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Any updates on this bike?
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