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Educate a newbie

Old 11-03-22, 04:14 PM
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Educate a newbie

Hey everyone, long-time BF member, but folding bike newbie here. I just got my first folding bike, and I was hoping to get some information about a few things.

The bike I got is a used Citizen Tokyo with 16 inch wheels. I know, it's not what you'd have recommended, but I think it was a good fit for my needs. Periodically, my company sends me from Oregon to the SF Bay Area on the company shuttle. I can (I think!) take a folding bike along in a bag as checked luggage so I can get around down there without having to take Uber/Lyft. (Believe it or not, I've gotten this far without so much as installing either of their apps.) Typically I expect flat rides of around 1-2 miles, but my first experiment with this is going to involve an 11 mile ride (still dead flat) from the San Jose Jet Center to a conference I'm attending in San Jose. I don't imagine I'll use it for anything longer than that.

The bike was in kind of rough shape when I got it, but I stripped it down, cleaned and lubed everything, gave it new tires, and replaced a few parts I didn't like. Today I took it out for a first shakedown ride -- 7 miles from a local park-and-ride to my workplace.

Gratuitous picture:



Now my questions....

1. The bike feels wobbly, particularly at low speeds -- like it goes straight, but the front wheel is flopping back and forth much more tangibly than I'm used to. Is that normal? A bi-product of the tiny wheels maybe? Will I get used to it? It's very disconcerting. I feel like a kid just learning to ride a bike for the first time.

2. The seatpost isn't quite long enough to give me the bottom bracket to saddle extension I normally use. The seatpost doesn't actually have a minimum insertion mark on it, but I decided that I should have the bottom of the post go down at least to the bottom of the top tube (do you still call it that when it's the only tube?). Am I being too conservative? The post is 550mm long and I think 32mm in diameter (I was expecting 31.8, but my calipers say 32). I don't want to spend more money on this thing, but I am curious whether aftermarket seatposts are even available in this size. Is there anything I can do about this?

3. I replaced the original crankset, which was some awful heavy steel piece with a 48T chainring and (broken) plastic chain guides on both sides of the ring. My replacement crank is using a 52T ring, which still leaves the upper gearing kind of low but is fine for my needs. The problem here is that within the first 10 feet of riding I dropped the chain. It didn't happen again on my first ride, but I was kind of staying away from the big cog. I've used 1xN setups in cyclocross, and so I know a whole bag of tricks for fixing chain drop. Some of them won't work here because, for example, the seat tube is way bigger than any clamp-on guides. I might have a plastic band guide that will work, but I don't know where it is. Maybe just moving the chainring to the inner position or otherwise improving the chainline will fix this? Any other suggestions?

4. Do I need to worry about the rear derailleur or anything else when I've got it in a soft bag and handed over to baggage handlers? The original rear derailleur was some clunky Shimano sub-Tourney thing that was probably bomb-proof. I replaced it with a Shimano 600 Tri-Color that I had on the shelf. It works better but may be more fragile. What do you think?

5. I swapped in a Specialized Phenom saddle, which is what I always use on my road bikes. Of course, I've got a much more upright position on this bike. I kind of felt that on my way in to work. Should I consider going back to the couch-like saddle that this bike came with? Or maybe just something wider than the Phenom?

6. Anything else I haven't thought about but should?

Thanks in advance for any help!
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Old 11-03-22, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Hey everyone, long-time BF member, but folding bike newbie here. I just got my first folding bike, and I was hoping to get some information about a few things.

The bike I got is a used Citizen Tokyo with 16 inch wheels. I know, it's not what you'd have recommended, but I think it was a good fit for my needs. Periodically, my company sends me from Oregon to the SF Bay Area on the company shuttle. I can (I think!) take a folding bike along in a bag as checked luggage so I can get around down there without having to take Uber/Lyft. (Believe it or not, I've gotten this far without so much as installing either of their apps.) Typically I expect flat rides of around 1-2 miles, but my first experiment with this is going to involve an 11 mile ride (still dead flat) from the San Jose Jet Center to a conference I'm attending in San Jose. I don't imagine I'll use it for anything longer than that.

The bike was in kind of rough shape when I got it, but I stripped it down, cleaned and lubed everything, gave it new tires, and replaced a few parts I didn't like. Today I took it out for a first shakedown ride -- 7 miles from a local park-and-ride to my workplace.

Gratuitous picture:



Now my questions....

1. The bike feels wobbly, particularly at low speeds -- like it goes straight, but the front wheel is flopping back and forth much more tangibly than I'm used to. Is that normal? A bi-product of the tiny wheels maybe? Will I get used to it? It's very disconcerting. I feel like a kid just learning to ride a bike for the first time. No, the wheel should not be flopping back and forth. Your hubs may be loose.

2. The seatpost isn't quite long enough to give me the bottom bracket to saddle extension I normally use. The seatpost doesn't actually have a minimum insertion mark on it, but I decided that I should have the bottom of the post go down at least to the bottom of the top tube (do you still call it that when it's the only tube?). Am I being too conservative? The post is 550mm long and I think 32mm in diameter (I was expecting 31.8, but my calipers say 32). I don't want to spend more money on this thing, but I am curious whether aftermarket seatposts are even available in this size. Is there anything I can do about this? Your seat post should go into the seat post tube at least 2.5x the diameter of the post, so about 80mm

3. I replaced the original crankset, which was some awful heavy steel piece with a 48T chainring and (broken) plastic chain guides on both sides of the ring. My replacement crank is using a 52T ring, which still leaves the upper gearing kind of low but is fine for my needs. The problem here is that within the first 10 feet of riding I dropped the chain. It didn't happen again on my first ride, but I was kind of staying away from the big cog. I've used 1xN setups in cyclocross, and so I know a whole bag of tricks for fixing chain drop. Some of them won't work here because, for example, the seat tube is way bigger than any clamp-on guides. I might have a plastic band guide that will work, but I don't know where it is. Maybe just moving the chainring to the inner position or otherwise improving the chainline will fix this? Any other suggestions? Yes, improving the chainline should resolve this.

4. Do I need to worry about the rear derailleur or anything else when I've got it in a soft bag and handed over to baggage handlers? The original rear derailleur was some clunky Shimano sub-Tourney thing that was probably bomb-proof. I replaced it with a Shimano 600 Tri-Color that I had on the shelf. It works better but may be more fragile. What do you think? Dunno

5. I swapped in a Specialized Phenom saddle, which is what I always use on my road bikes. Of course, I've got a much more upright position on this bike. I kind of felt that on my way in to work. Should I consider going back to the couch-like saddle that this bike came with? Or maybe just something wider than the Phenom? Saddles are very subjective; try swapping it until you find what works for you.

6. Anything else I haven't thought about but should? Enjoy!

Thanks in advance for any help!

See my responses in Red above
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Old 11-03-22, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
No, the wheel should not be flopping back and forth. Your hubs may be loose.
The hub feels good to me. I should clarify that when I say the wheel is flopping I mean the whole steering apparatus -- wheel, fork, handlebars, etc. This may literally be a case of me re-learning to ride a bike. I've got general below average coordination and balance, and the geometry on this bike is radically different from what I'm used to. I may just need to develop new muscle memory. It didn't seem as bad on the way home, and when I did notice it consciously relaxing my elbows seemed to fix it.


Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Your seat post should go into the seat post tube at least 2.5x the diameter of the post, so about 80mm
I'm at 100mm right now, but that includes the bit of seat tube that extends above the main tube. My preferred saddle height would put it closer to 50mm, and that is almost entirely the section above the main tube, so that seems a bit risky. I'm not a tall guy (5'9"). Is this really just a one-size-fits-some situation? Or do I need to adjust my expectations about riding position. It's not like I can't ride it this way, but it's definitely drawing in different muscle groups than I'm used to.


Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Saddles are very subjective; try swapping it until you find what works for you.
Of course. I guess what I was asking is whether people here who ride both road bikes and folding bikes find that they prefer a wider saddle and/or more cushioning on the folding bike. A hint to guide my search if you will. For the distances I'm going to be riding this, I could just live with it as is, but I like to optimize things.


Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Enjoy!
Thanks for your input!
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Old 11-04-22, 02:36 AM
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Now my questions....

1. The bike feels wobbly, particularly at low speeds -- like it goes straight, but the front wheel is flopping back and forth much more tangibly than I'm used to. Is that normal? A bi-product of the tiny wheels maybe? Will I get used to it? It's very disconcerting. I feel like a kid just learning to ride a bike for the first time
I ride 305 16" wheels frequently. Just did 50km today on one such wheeled bike today. No, your wheel is wobbly cuz it's wobbly. Nothing to do with its size. Get it checked out.
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Old 11-04-22, 10:48 AM
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I ride a Brompton with a 349 16-inch wheel, and it feels like it's juddering. I believe this is due to low trail constantly correcting it. It is normal behavior on the Brompton. The only other 16-inch wheel bike I had was a Moulton. It was a long time ago, but I do not recall it juddering.
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Old 11-04-22, 12:51 PM
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It's interesting that you assume the bargain-bin shimano derailleur would be "bomb proof" because in my experience they are finicky and unreliable, and your derailleur upgrade should work a lot better and require less maintenance.
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Old 11-05-22, 04:24 AM
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As many others said, for safety reason, check for steerer/headset play; turn tyre 90deg or 3oclock squeeze the front brake and rock the bike forwards and backward to see if there is some play. If there is, put a rope on the brake lever to keep it lock and do it again but this time, put a finger on each junction (fork to frame, handlebar joint etc.) so that you can feel where the play is coming from.

if all good, then it is the usual 16” feel which is different compared to 700c.


seatpost, depending of your weight, you can try litepro post (80kg max). Or, look into tern twin tube (telescopic tube).

if you keep derailling, then the chainline or the FD is not good so start with the easy thing, derailleur alignement and avoid cross chaining. If the chain line is to far out, it may be the crankset as the wrong offset. The litepro works well with folding bike. Or you can swap the sealed bottom bracket for another on with less offset (i had to do that of my jetstream)

derailleur, if you have a cassette setup, I would not bother with shimano tricolor thingy. If the rear derailleur break and you want a 7 speed, put a cheap altus m310 (like current dahon dahon and other kids bike).
or, if you have a cassette, swap for something like sora/alivio 9speed with more range (7-8an9 speed shimano have the same ratio so they can be mixed and matched).
or if you have the fund, and will, switch to tiagra or zee 10 speed.
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Old 11-05-22, 08:02 AM
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1 - When you say flopping around, if you mean that the bikes you rode before, the wheel would hold a straight forward line more as you rode at slow speed, the smaller wheel bike will not hold as steady at that same slow speed, yes, that is normal. Smaller wheel has less gyroscopic affect holding it in position at slow speed. I even notice that on my folder that has 24 inch wheels, compared to my 700c bikes. But, your bike front wheel should not "flop around" at higher speed where gyroscopic force holds it steadier.

4 - If you have the chain on the biggest rear sprocket in back, your rear derailleur would stick out less that if you were on the smallest sprocket. If you can figure out what thread size your rear axle is, maybe you could buy a coupling nut of that thread size. A coupling nut is a really long nut, google it. And if you found one that stuck out slightly farther than your derailleur, that might take care of your concerns. If I did that, I would also get a short bolt to go in the other end and put a fender washer over that end, so the outside end of the nut has a wider surface than just the narrow coupling nut. Some axles have an unusually fine thread for their diameter, so this might not be as easy as it sounds. But, a folder with short chainstays, if you did this and if you have long feet, your heel might hit it. Check where your heel is first when you set your right hand pedal as far back as it goes.

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Old 11-06-22, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by willydstyle View Post
It's interesting that you assume the bargain-bin shimano derailleur would be "bomb proof" because in my experience they are finicky and unreliable, and your derailleur upgrade should work a lot better and require less maintenance.
​​​​​​Yeah, what I meant was that the cheap one is a big, chunky thing that's unlikely to be damaged by being hit.
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Old 11-06-22, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
​​​​​​Yeah, what I meant was that the cheap one is a big, chunky thing that's unlikely to be damaged by being hit.
​​​​​​Why would anyone buy Deore, XT, etc. if that were case? That is not the case, in fact.
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Old 11-06-22, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon View Post
​​​​​​Why would anyone buy Deore, XT, etc. if that were case? That is not the case, in fact.
Is it really that unclear what I'm saying? People would buy Deore, XT, etc. because they work better. I replaced the chunky thing because the unit I replaced it with works better. My question was about whether or not I should do something to protect the replacement.

The cheap one is made almost entirely out of steel. Whatever else may be wrong with it, it isn't fragile. I'm not saying Shimano's better derailleurs are fragile. I know they aren't, but they're made mostly of aluminum and they can be broken.

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Old 11-06-22, 07:16 AM
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For about $10 (and a bunch of snarky comments from some people around here ) you can get yourself one of these.

Generic pic off Amazon, not saying this one will fit your bike.
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Old 11-06-22, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz View Post
if you keep derailling, then the chainline or the FD is not good so start with the easy thing, derailleur alignement and avoid cross chaining. If the chain line is to far out, it may be the crankset as the wrong offset. The litepro works well with folding bike. Or you can swap the sealed bottom bracket for another on with less offset (i had to do that of my jetstream)
There is no FD, he's running 1x with a 52T ring and wondering if he should be moving it inboard.
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Old 11-06-22, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by EVlove View Post
For about $10 (and a bunch of snarky comments from some people around here ) you can get yourself one of these.

Generic pic off Amazon, not saying this one will fit your bike.
Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was wondering about. I take it they aren't popular among this group?
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Old 11-07-22, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was wondering about. I take it they aren't popular among this group?
I, myself, buy solid RD in the first place and start from there.
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Old 11-07-22, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was wondering about. I take it they aren't popular among this group?
Se offer them, and they do a good job. They just are not aesthetically appealing.
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Old 11-07-22, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon View Post
I, myself, buy solid RD in the first place and start from there.
Nice to see a photo of a bike that's not a garage queen.
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Old 11-07-22, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
​​​​​​Yeah, what I meant was that the cheap one is a big, chunky thing that's unlikely to be damaged by being hit.
It's also made out of cheap materials that are less resilient. If you really want a bomb-proof rear derailleur look out for Shimano Zee derailleurs. They're designed for 1x downhill bikes so they are compact and super tough.
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Old 11-07-22, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon View Post
I, myself, buy solid RD in the first place and start from there.
Originally Posted by willydstyle View Post
It's also made out of cheap materials that are less resilient. If you really want a bomb-proof rear derailleur look out for Shimano Zee derailleurs. They're designed for 1x downhill bikes so they are compact and super tough.
That looks pretty good. I'm most concerned about side impact during transportation (being tossed by baggage handlers) so the cheap and ugly protector would probably do what I want, but that Zee looks nice. I don't have time to get either before my first trip with the bike tomorrow. I guess I'll see how it goes and whether I need to do anything.
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Old 11-07-22, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Se offer them, and they do a good job. They just are not aesthetically appealing.
Wait... You've got that rack spoiling the effect and you are concerned about the looks of the RD cage? 😳🙈
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Old 11-07-22, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by GeezyRider View Post
Nice to see a photo of a bike that's not a garage queen.
​​​​​That RD has now been on three bikes over six years.

305 power!
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