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They "sold me the Zizzo, not the steak".😁

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They "sold me the Zizzo, not the steak".😁

Old 01-24-24, 03:58 PM
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Very Nice!

Paul,

I am in awe of your heavily modded Liberte.

A couple of questions. Did you purchase it new? Have you weighed it after all these parts were installed?

Now, to be honest, I am not a "modder" and generally like to keep my stuff mostly stock. That said, the only
different parts I might install on my Liberte soon are a set of Zizzo removable pedals and a road-
bike style carbon fiber saddle. Oh, I do have a GPS cyclometer on order to replace that clunky smartphone
and holder.

I normally ride a small e-bike as I am challenged using an acoustic bike due to the chronic illnesses I am going
through. Hopefully, things will get better soon.

Thanks for posting.
Edward

Originally Posted by PaulJensen




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Old 01-24-24, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by edwong3
...

On my end, I...plan to get the removable pedals sold on Zizzo's website. I should be able to knock off close to 1/3 lb. or so on the bike (not that it'll make a huge difference).



...
fwiw, I run those pedals on my FnHon Gust 16" and they've been good and solid so far. They are sold here in Indonesia as Promend PD-R67Q for under $20/pair. There's also the non removable, non quick-release version that sells for about $11. Very good value at my price. Ron-Recommended.👍🏿


Promend PD-R67Q

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Old 01-24-24, 06:28 PM
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Yes, I have in fact seen those pedals on eBay and shipped to the US, the R67Q are actually about $30 bucks. That's not bad and nearly $20 less than the Zizzo branded pedals. It's good to know that the Promend is a good product.

Thanks for the recommendation.
Edward

Originally Posted by Ron Damon
fwiw, I run those pedals on my FnHon Gust 16" and they've been good and solid so far. They are sold here in Indonesia as Promend PD-R67Q for under $20/pair. There's also the non removable, non quick-release version that sells for about $11. Very good value at my price. Ron-Recommended.👍🏿


Promend PD-R67Q
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Old 01-25-24, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulJensen



The hub bolts on with the supplied hex head bolts from Phil…

The rims are stock Zizzo Liberte… The spokes were cut from the stock hubs
then the dark anodization was sanded off…. The new wheels were built by Corey Thompson in Olympia…

The rear hub is a triple sealed bearing unit from e-bay… Very quiet…
I thought I saw Phil on one of the photos! But I thought, naw, can't be. Outstanding! Regarding the bolts, I think each just clamps each side, no thru-skewer, as that might impart excessive axial loads to the bearings. I think each bolt clamps only each side, just like a nutted axle, and that's good, a reason I went back to nutted axles.

Regarding the dark anodizing "sanded off", *wince*, jeeze I hope it wasn't by chucking in a drill press and spinning the spoke while holding sandpaper around it, because that would impart circumferential scratches, which would be perfect crack initiation points. At best, you would want to sand in-line with the spoke, and really, best not to impart any scratches; That smooth drawn spoke exterior is not only smooth, but has imparted to it "residual compressive stresses" from drawing, which helps fight fatigue, fatigue always happens in tension. This is why things like racing engine connecting rods are "shot-peened".

Oh, and given they are stainless steel, the spokes wouldn't be anodized, I think that is mostly for aluminum. It might have been black paint, or, a chemical process, some modern military pistols with stainless steel parts have a black chemical process finish, which is generally not cheap. I think black spokes are painted with a good enamel and baked on.

OH, wait a second, you might mean taking the black anodizing off the RIMS. Also not good to sand. Lye (sodium hydroxide) - based oven cleaner (Easy-Off in the yellow can), takes anodizing right off (why it is not safe to use on anodized cookware). But that hard anodizing (it is harder) is more durable against pad wear, and doesn't polish smooth as easy as the raw aluminum, so better braking. Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel, mentions doing that, but I have found, unfortunately, many errors in things he has said, quite surprising, given he was an engineer. For instance, saying helmets don't improve survival (wrong, they both reduce the impulse by spreading the impact over longer time as the foam crushes, and spread the load over a larger area), and that the spokes at the bottom of a wheel are loaded in compression (they are not, they would buckle like any wire or slender (Johnson or Euler) column), they are loaded in tension and the tension is reduced due to loading.

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Old 01-25-24, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
OH, wait a second, you might mean taking the black anodizing off the RIMS.
That's it...
Got rid of the stock hubs and spokes...
The rims were basically new and silver rims look better with the new silver drivetrain and brakes...
Wet sanded the rims, 240 to 600 grit...
Waxed the rims using Scotchbrite pad...
Saipan spokes with new hubs...
Lucky that Corey Thompson could build them for me...
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Old 01-25-24, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel, mentions doing that, but I have found, unfortunately, many errors in things he has said, quite surprising, given he was an engineer. For instance, saying helmets don't improve survival (wrong, they both reduce the impulse by spreading the impact over longer time as the foam crushes, and spread the load over a larger area), and that the spokes at the bottom of a wheel are loaded in compression (they are not, they would buckle like any wire or slender (Johnson or Euler) column), they are loaded in tension and the tension is reduced due to loading.
I have not read "The Bicycle Wheel" but I am very surprised that Brandt ever said the spokes were in compression. I thought his understanding of the way wheels work came from his making finite element models of them. I have only read some of his online posts.
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Old 01-25-24, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta
I have not read "The Bicycle Wheel" but I am very surprised that Brandt ever said the spokes were in compression. I thought his understanding of the way wheels work came from his making finite element models of them. I have only read some of his online posts.
The error is infamous; Discussion of said starts about post #22:

Jobst Brandt "The Bicycle Wheel"

(I only found that discussion yesterday. I bought his book (early) and being an engineer, I knew the explanation was wrong. But the helmet thing I saw online really peeved me.)

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Old 01-28-24, 07:17 PM
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I just got a Zizzo Urbano. I like the fatter tires and didn't need quick-release wheels. It seems like a great deal - hundreds cheaper than a similar Dahon.
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Old 01-28-24, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by frizzen
I just got a Zizzo Urbano. I like the fatter tires and didn't need quick-release wheels. It seems like a great deal - hundreds cheaper than a similar Dahon.
Sounds great. If you do your own maintenance, you'll discover the ease of getting a perfect wheel bearing adjustment, as nutted axles don't compress the whole axle like a quick-release; However you adjust the bearings, it will stay that way once on the bike. I now prefer nutted axles for that reason.

Urbano... looks like a Liberte but with bigger tires? (and nutted axles)

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Old 01-28-24, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Sounds great. If you do your own maintenance, you'll discover the ease of getting a perfect wheel bearing adjustment, as nutted axles don't compress the whole axle like a quick-release; However you adjust the bearings, it will stay that way once on the bike. I now prefer nutted axles for that reason.

Urbano... looks like a Liberte but with bigger tires? (and nutted axles)
Yes, the Urbano has 2.0" tires. Unfortunately they used the narrow rims from the Liberte so they are only 1.75" wide, but still 2" tall. Lots of frame clearance for bigger tires, but I wouldn't try bigger than 2.125" on those rims. I haven't ridden it much yet, but I started with 30psi front 35psi rear. The front felt a little harsh, and the ride from the rear tire was smooth, but I may have to up the pressure a little.
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Old 01-28-24, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by frizzen
Yes, the Urbano has 2.0" tires. Unfortunately they used the narrow rims from the Liberte so they are only 1.75" wide, but still 2" tall. Lots of frame clearance for bigger tires, but I wouldn't try bigger than 2.125" on those rims. I haven't ridden it much yet, but I started with 30psi front 35psi rear. The front felt a little harsh, and the ride from the rear tire was smooth, but I may have to up the pressure a little.
I run 1.75" on my 20", and need to run higher pressure than optimum for ride, about 50 for the front and 60 for the rear, this is below max for tire but way above recommended for ride. The reason is, based on my experience in this location, lower pressure in the front and hitting a pothole, will not only pinch-flat, but bend the rim sides, and in the rear, the combined load of me, a trunk bag full of tools and spares at all times, strong rear rack, two large panniers, that less pressure causes fatigue in the tire sidewalls, at least with the original dahon gumsides, I could see fatigue in the sidewall fibers. The current tires are bigger, 1.75", and blackwall, a bit more material over the fibers, so I could probably get away with lower pressure to improve ride, I may try this year. I have a 2" tire I picked up cheap at the bike shop, like new, I may use that next on the rear.

Don't worry about the rims being slightly narrower than the tire, that's not a big difference and helps protect the rim. The big downside is the brakes, even when uncoupled, may not open enough to get the wheel off with the tire inflated. This was never an issue with caliper brakes with a quick-release, but a problem with V-brakes, as both front and rear pads fall inside the frame and fork tubes, so limit brake opening when uncoupled. So you just have the tire deflated before removing or putting back on. Not a big deal.

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Old 01-29-24, 11:16 AM
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The Liberte has a hollowtech style bottom bracket, while the Urbano has the standard sealed cartridge type. Otherwise, you can't go wrong with either model. Me, personally, I'd opt for the Forte for the higher weight limit, rear rack and fenders. The bottom bracket can always be upgraded at a later date...
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Old 01-29-24, 12:35 PM
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Congratulations!

Originally Posted by frizzen
I just got a Zizzo Urbano. I like the fatter tires and didn't need quick-release wheels. It seems like a great deal - hundreds cheaper than a similar Dahon.
"
That's cool! The Urbano might very well be Zizzo's single best-selling model or at the very least, second. I do find it amazing that it is only one pound heavier than the Liberte. I do like the looks of the space grey Urbano as well but in my case, the Liberte was actually CHEAPER at the time on Target.com. But at the regular prices, the Liberte is about $50 more.

Nutted axles or quick release on my Liberte really doesn't make a huge difference in my case as I am not going to use the bike to "run errands" to where it needs to be locked outside in situations where I cannot bring it into the establishment with me.

Here is an interesting video of a gentleman who owns both the Urbano and the Liberte and compares them:


And here is a video published by Zizzo doing some cyclocross trail riding. Those wider tires do make a difference:


Great bike. Enjoy!
Edward
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Old 01-29-24, 12:44 PM
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The Liberte and Urbano have the same frame and drivetrain (aluminum and 8 speed) and possess the same brakes. The seats and bottom bracket are different, as well as the tires (I guess the rims differ as well). I forgot about quick release vs nutted axles.

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Old 01-29-24, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101
The Liberte has a hollowtech style bottom bracket, while the Urbano has the standard sealed cartridge type. Otherwise, you can't go wrong with either model. Me, personally, I'd opt for the Forte for the higher weight limit, rear rack and fenders. The bottom bracket can always be upgraded at a later date...
I do think the Forte is a very desirable model. Perfect for commuting and maybe with some minor modifications, a capable touring bike. It's ruggedness is reassuring when you are biking far away from home.

I love this video by Zizzo showing how well the Forte performs in a "bikepacking" scenario:


Edward
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Old 01-29-24, 04:10 PM
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Good to know about the BB difference, I didn't pick that up off the spec sheet. Thanks for the tip!

Originally Posted by tds101
The Liberte has a hollowtech style bottom bracket, while the Urbano has the standard sealed cartridge type. Otherwise, you can't go wrong with either model. Me, personally, I'd opt for the Forte for the higher weight limit, rear rack and fenders. The bottom bracket can always be upgraded at a later date...
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Old 01-29-24, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by seat_boy
Good to know about the BB difference, I didn't pick that up off the spec sheet. Thanks for the tip!
It makes a world of difference IMO. Now all they need to do is upgrade to disc brakes to make them a steal deal of a folding bike.
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Old 01-29-24, 04:17 PM
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I'm expecting I'm in the minority here, but I would rather have V brakes on a folding bike. Plenty strong, and no worries about your rotor getting dinged when you toss the folded bike in the trunk.

I may have to grab one of these if they go on sale again. Do I need a third folding bike? No, I do not. But...

Originally Posted by tds101
It makes a world of difference IMO. Now all they need to do is upgrade to disc brakes to make them a steal deal of a folding bike.
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Old 01-29-24, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101
The Liberte and Urbano have the same frame and drivetrain (aluminum and 8 speed) and possess the same brakes. The seats and bottom bracket are different, as well as the tires (I guess the rims differ as well). I forgot about quick release vs nutted axles.
The Liberte and the Urbano use the same rims (unfortunately). This means the 2" tires on the Urbano are pinched down to 1.75" when mounted. They are still 2" high, so better than 1.75" tires. I don't know why they didn't put the wider rims from all the other bikes onto the Urbano. They also have different seats, the Urbano is much wider (like every bike except the Liberte).
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Old 01-29-24, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101
It makes a world of difference IMO. Now all they need to do is upgrade to disc brakes to make them a steal deal of a folding bike.
Disc brakes AND a double 50/34 hollowtech II style crank (same crank as the Liberte, but with 2 chainrings, and a front derailleur mount with shifter). That would be a turn-key bike capable of steep hills up or down, and an excellent basis for a tourer. My bike is all of the above except the disc brakes.

The other possibility is the Origami Bull (discs), and adding the double crank setup.

I know V-brakes are simpler, pads cheaper, but I ride a lot of miles in areas with steep hills, and discs eliminate rim sidewall wear, and stop a lot better on steeps in the rain. If I lived on the flats, rim brakes would be fine, barely used.

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Old 01-29-24, 10:23 PM
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On my Liberte, I have a Tioga SPECTR 20x2.4 on the rear and Schwalbe Marathon 1.5 in front… Nice combo…

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Old 01-30-24, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by seat_boy
I'm expecting I'm in the minority here, but I would rather have V brakes on a folding bike. Plenty strong, and no worries about your rotor getting dinged when you toss the folded bike in the trunk.

I may have to grab one of these if they go on sale again. Do I need a third folding bike? No, I do not. But...
​​​​​​I've never had or faced any difficulties with rim brakes wet or dry, loaded or unloaded, descending or climbing. Rim brakes are perfectly fine and rim brake track wear is vastly overstated, particularly in the age of modern material science and manufacturing. This, from one who descends steep volcanic steppes and ravines on ISO305 wheels. Methinks they doth protest too much.
​​​​
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Old 01-30-24, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
​​​​​​I've never had or faced any difficulties with rim brakes wet or dry, loaded or unloaded, descending or climbing. Rim brakes are perfectly fine and rim brake track wear is vastly overstated, particularly in the age of modern material science and manufacturing. This, from one who descends steep volcanic steppes and ravines on ISO305 wheels. Methinks they doth protest too much.
​​​​



Road bike only, not ridden on dirt or when wet, pads cleaned frequently (why I went to cartridge pads). Now, granted, these are original wheels, low-quality Dahon single wall rims, not hard anodized to begin with I think, and 10 years old. But darnit, there's nothing else wrong with them, very true, no cracks, hubs still good (I'm meticulous about wheel bearing maintenance), yet that concave sidewall wear I think means I may be on borrowed time. I haven't yet deflated the tire at a LBS that has a micrometer to tell me what thickness I have left, or at least original thickness. And, braking has been noticeably worse than when new, the sidewalls are so polished, and that matters on the steep streets here. Most of my brake pad cleaning, after scrubbing clean, is poking out bits of aluminum embedded in the pads with a knife point, not many, but I stay up on that, even though they are embedded flush into the softer rubber. Not the best quality rims by far. But a steel disc is going to hold up better.

Where I used to live on the flats? Yeah, rims never wore due to brake wear. I wore them out from fatigue cracks at the spoke holes (road bike, smooth roads, but massive yearly mileage), until I switched to double-socketed rims.

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Old 01-30-24, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulJensen

On my Liberte, I have a Tioga SPECTR 20x2.4 on the rear and Schwalbe Marathon 1.5 in front… Nice combo…

As usual Paul, you are the Liberte "on steroids" guru.
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Old 02-06-24, 02:59 PM
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Just a short ride...

Today, the weather was absolutely beautiful. Temps were a bit up to 65 degrees F, no sign of rain and plenty of sunshine. I took the Liberte for a short spin to test my new XOSS G+ GPS cycling computer and Kocevlo MTB/Road saddle.

The GPS bike computer worked perfectly and the Kocevlo's comfort was surprisingly even though I wasn't wearing padded cycling shorts.



The XOSS G+ is an amazing piece of technology for an entry level price. Highly recommended.


The new saddle (Koscevlo) is constructed out of carbon fiber, weighs next to nothing and is much more comfortable than the stock seat that came with the bike. The Zizzo under seat bag offers a lot of internal volume to carry the essentials needed by cyclists but is empty for now. I'm just staying on my street so no need to carry anything extra.


Rides as nice as it looks.

Hopefully, my physical capabilities will improve with time and will be able to do much longer rides, and post photos in the "Folders in the Wild" thread.

Edward
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