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Dahon vs. Zizzo

Old 02-18-24, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
- If I needed a frequent folder, it would have to be a Brompton or clone, the folded package size is unbeatable. If I travel much without touring loads, I may want to get one.
It won't be load capacity that limits touring on a Brompton. When I need load capacity, I turn to Brompton over my 20-inch folders.
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Old 02-18-24, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta
It won't be load capacity that limits touring on a Brompton. When I need load capacity, I turn to Brompton over my 20-inch folders.
Well wheels that small, 349, are incredibly strong. For me the Brompton limit would be less about weight, and more about volume; I'd be curious about your cargo layout. On my 20", I have a tall, well-aft rear rack that holds full-size panniers, and a trunk bag. I have a low front rack that holds smaller standard panniers, and a top platform for bulky loads. A little bit of steered weight on my 20", calmed the steering, a plus. The huge space between the front rack platform and handlebars, easily accommodates very bulky but low density items, like a sleeping pad or bag. I know folks do self contained touring with Bromptons, mostly I have seen with Brompton huge handlebar bag, but I don't know if I'd like that much steered weight, especially weight that can swing laterally. The Brompton head tube connector won't take high weight. The rear rack won't fit anywhere close to full-size panniers, I couldn't even use on my stock 20" rack, never tried, might have barely cleared the ground but not curbs, and I know not my heels when pedaling. My tall/aft rack holds them completely behind the rear axle. Oh, I have seen Brompton tourers with a big backpack strapped to the rear rack and tall seatpost.

Also with touring or food-shopping weight, I need to keep the 20"x1.75s at 60 PSI, otherwise too much sidewall flex and deterioration of the tire; I would imagine that skinny 349s would require much higher pressure, and ride even worse. Some here have said 305s with bigger section tires is the way to go, but I don't know if those would fit on a Brompton, plus would required new wheels or rims and spokes, more money.

I'd be glad to hear that I could actually heavy-tour on a 349 Brompton, that would make air travel a whole lot easier. My 20" does trains and cars fine.

EDIT: Also, IGHs like on most Bromptons, don't like heavy cargo or drive loads, from what I've read. Hmm, just occured to me, does the Brompton rear hub (6 speed, with 2 sprockets), have the right (drive side) bearings just inside the right dropout like a freehub, or way further in like old freewheel setups? If the latter, that could be one of the reasons.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-18-24 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 02-19-24, 08:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Well wheels that small, 349, are incredibly strong. For me the Brompton limit would be less about weight, and more about volume; I'd be curious about your cargo layout. On my 20", I have a tall, well-aft rear rack that holds full-size panniers, and a trunk bag. I have a low front rack that holds smaller standard panniers, and a top platform for bulky loads. A little bit of steered weight on my 20", calmed the steering, a plus. The huge space between the front rack platform and handlebars, easily accommodates very bulky but low density items, like a sleeping pad or bag. I know folks do self contained touring with Bromptons, mostly I have seen with Brompton huge handlebar bag, but I don't know if I'd like that much steered weight, especially weight that can swing laterally. The Brompton head tube connector won't take high weight. The rear rack won't fit anywhere close to full-size panniers, I couldn't even use on my stock 20" rack, never tried, might have barely cleared the ground but not curbs, and I know not my heels when pedaling. My tall/aft rack holds them completely behind the rear axle. Oh, I have seen Brompton tourers with a big backpack strapped to the rear rack and tall seatpost.

Also with touring or food-shopping weight, I need to keep the 20"x1.75s at 60 PSI, otherwise too much sidewall flex and deterioration of the tire; I would imagine that skinny 349s would require much higher pressure, and ride even worse. Some here have said 305s with bigger section tires is the way to go, but I don't know if those would fit on a Brompton, plus would required new wheels or rims and spokes, more money.

I'd be glad to hear that I could actually heavy-tour on a 349 Brompton, that would make air travel a whole lot easier. My 20" does trains and cars fine.

EDIT: Also, IGHs like on most Bromptons, don't like heavy cargo or drive loads, from what I've read. Hmm, just occured to me, does the Brompton rear hub (6 speed, with 2 sprockets), have the right (drive side) bearings just inside the right dropout like a freehub, or way further in like old freewheel setups? If the latter, that could be one of the reasons.

Large ruck sack used on the rear rack. Attach sack near the back of the rack and top of the sack to the saddle. These sacks hold a lot. For the front either the pack a folding basket bag or an old T-bag. I guess the T is for touring. I replied in a previous post that IGH 3-speeds have no problem with touring loads. I use my Brompton for food shopping all the time. I fold it into shopping cart mode and pack it up. If I am going to buy more than the folding basket can hold, I take quick release Brompton bag support seat post rack I made with a basket and fill that up to. The bike gets heavy to pedal. Loads of more than 25 pounds on the front block get squirrelly.



Rear rack slightly modified.
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Old 02-19-24, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta
Large ruck sack used on the rear rack. Attach sack near the back of the rack and top of the sack to the saddle. These sacks hold a lot. For the front either the pack a folding basket bag or an old T-bag. I guess the T is for touring. I replied in a previous post that IGH 3-speeds have no problem with touring loads. I use my Brompton for food shopping all the time. I fold it into shopping cart mode and pack it up. If I am going to buy more than the folding basket can hold, I take quick release Brompton bag support seat post rack I made with a basket and fill that up to. The bike gets heavy to pedal. Loads of more than 25 pounds on the front block get squirrelly.



Rear rack slightly modified.
Thanks. Yes I did see your response on the other thread. Interesting. So high front load getting squirrely... A lot less load than that, 5 or 10 lbs in my front panniers, and this is steered with the fork, calms down the (typical 20"/406) twitchy steering. I could see it being a handful with 25. However the brompton front block, while I'd be concerned about overloading the block, the advantage of that system is the load is not steered. Interestingly, there is a respected study around that proved that neither wheel rotating inertia, nor caster/trail, are need for stability; They proved that all you needed was some mass forward of the steering axis, though I can't recall if this was on frame like a brompton block, or steered. But that mass caused the bike to steer in the direction the bike was falling, thereby correcting. They pushed it empty and it rolled upright a good distance before falling once it got too slow. Here's a summary article, I could find the exact study if needed:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...f-stable-bike/

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-19-24 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 02-22-24, 04:35 AM
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  • Liberté uses a quick release for the wheel.
  • Urbano uses nutted axle
Is there any advantage one over the other?

Can I place a wider tire (fatter) on the Liberté or do I have to replace the entire wheel?
What is the max width of tires can be used?
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Old 02-22-24, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RZetlin
  • Liberté uses a quick release for the wheel.
  • Urbano uses nutted axle
Is there any advantage one over the other?

Can I place a wider tire (fatter) on the Liberté or do I have to replace the entire wheel?
What is the max width of tires can be used?
Generally, quick release wheels have been favored, for easier changing of tires, and perceived "classier". HOWEVER, I now prefer nutted axles for two reasons:
- (most important to me) Much easier wheel bearing adjustment; I can adjust the nutted axle of the bike to *perfect* bearing preload, put it on the bike, and nothing changes, because only the ends of the axle are slightly stretched between the nut and outer locknut. With a QR axle, you adjust it, then put it on the bike, and the bearing preload changes, because the QR skewer compresses the entire axle; So perfect adjustment is too tight, need to back off, reinstall, and much harder to gauge preload because you now cannot spin the axle in your fingers, you can only turn the wheel. A way to get around this is put an extra set of cones, nuts, or washers on the axle out of the bike, close the quick release to normal tension, then adjust the bearings.
- (less important to me) Nutted axles are a bit more theft resistant, but not by much. Anti-theft (keyed) nuts are better. (Doesn't matter to me on this, I NEVER leave my bike alone for a second now, even if locked, they can cut a heavy chain in seconds.*)

If the Liberte wheels are the same as the Urbano, yes, you can use Urbano-size tires. Even if not, possibly. Someone on here will know.

*Wilson : Can't be too careful nowadays, y'know? Lot of "tea leaves" about, know what I mean?
Warehouse Foreman : Excuse me?
Wilson : Tea leaves... thieves.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-22-24 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 02-22-24, 07:07 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by RZetlin
  • Liberté uses a quick release for the wheel.
  • Urbano uses nutted axle
Is there any advantage one over the other?

Can I place a wider tire (fatter) on the Liberté or do I have to replace the entire wheel?
What is the max width of tires can be used?
Hi, I have a liberte and I prefer nutted over quick release for theft deterrence. I want the wheel thief to at least carry a tool. Quick release makes the wheel too easy and too fast to steal.

I run a 2-inch tire in the back and a 2 1/8-inch tire if front with fenders.
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Old 02-22-24, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
...does the Brompton rear hub (6 speed, with 2 sprockets), have the right (drive side) bearings just inside the right dropout like a freehub, or way further in like old freewheel setups?
Brompton's BWR hub is based on the Sturmey-Archer AW-NIG hub which is based on the AW hub:

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Old 02-23-24, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tcs
Brompton's BWR hub is based on the Sturmey-Archer AW-NIG hub which is based on the AW hub:

Thanks! That's not too bad looking in terms of axle bending stress, extra good because the axle is hollow there. Very similar loading to a freehub. Two cogs won't change that much.

Now I'm curious about the same with regards to a Sachs/SRAM 3x7/8, which would be a bigger lift, a much thicker cassette; Either the driveside axle bearing is way inboard, just like an old freewheel, way more axle bending stress, or, the cassette body has the axle bearing near the dropout, but, unlike a (non-IGH) cassette with a freehub whose core is firmly bolted to the hub body in close tolerance, the required rotating freehub body on a 3x7/8 would be sitting on bearings where it meets the hub. So a highly stretched version of the Sturmey-Archer, but with greater bending loads on the fully-rotating freehub body, and the additional tolerance issues due to that. I can't find a sectional view of the 3x7/8. I'm still glad I didn't go that route (like a Dahon Speed TR), and opted instead for a 2X crankset.
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Old 02-23-24, 08:20 AM
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The SRAM DualDrive 3x9 hub has been out of production for seven years.

The current production Sturmey-Archer CS-RF3 hub in section view:

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Old 02-24-24, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tcs
The SRAM DualDrive 3x9 hub has been out of production for seven years.

The current production Sturmey-Archer CS-RF3 hub in section view:

Thanks! Geez it has been that long, hasn't it. Good to know SA is making a substitute. Driveside bearing on above, not too bad location. I doubt there is a spoke protector disc for that hub flange, I've become a fan of those, not needed often, but only one chaindrop there chews up the spokes.
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Old 02-24-24, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Good to know SA is making a substitute.
Fun fact: Sturmey-Archer has produced hybrid IGH/derailleur gearing since the 1930s.
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Old 02-24-24, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs
Fun fact: Sturmey-Archer has produced hybrid IGH/derailleur gearing since the 1930s.
I only became aware of that in the past month. As a teen in the 1980s, I thought about the possibility of same, as I rode a 3-speed IGH. But it's a bit of a solution in search of a problem, almost. I think it may have been invented before front derailleurs became widespread, but really took off as allowing a wider gear range while still allowing a full chainguard around the chainring, for riders and commuters wearing pants (although I still use a strap around my right pants leg or roll it up); For that solution, I think much wider range IGHs have superseded the hybrid IGH/rear-cassette. Some still like the hybrid for small-wheel bikes whose frame design does not allow mounting a front derailleur. My feeling is, both IGH and derailleur systems have advantages, however I'd prefer to not have the drawbacks of both on a single system. And these days, one not need to. Go with either a wide-range IGH, or a wide-range derailleur system, if possible. Still, like the retro Rene Herse cranks and such, it's comforting to know that someone still produces a design like the hybrid IGH/rear-derailleur system.
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Old 03-17-24, 04:55 PM
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It looks like Urbano and Liberté are no longer in stock in Amazon.

Reminding are Via, Ferro and Campo.

I also see a brand for SoloRock Hunter. Anybody have experience with this model?
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Old 03-17-24, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RZetlin
It looks like Urbano and Liberté are no longer in stock in Amazon.

Reminding are Via, Ferro and Campo.

I also see a brand for SoloRock Hunter. Anybody have experience with this model?
You can get the Liberte direct from Zizzo with free shipping.
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Old 03-17-24, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GeezyRider
You can get the Liberte direct from Zizzo with free shipping.
Not to Canada, they don't.
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Old 03-29-24, 03:02 PM
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After a lot of research and thinking, I finally made the decision to purchase the Dahon VYBE D7.

The VYBE D7 model is the middle of the sweet point in pricing and value.

It was not as expensive as the D8, but not as cheap as the SUV D6 with less features.

I hope when I get the bike delivered to me in the next few days I made the correct choice.
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Old 03-30-24, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RZetlin
After a lot of research and thinking, I finally made the decision to purchase the Dahon VYBE D7.

The VYBE D7 model is the middle of the sweet point in pricing and value.

It was not as expensive as the D8, but not as cheap as the SUV D6 with less features.

I hope when I get the bike delivered to me in the next few days I made the correct choice.
Yeah I think they no longer make a steel Speed D8. The similar but aluminum Mariner D8 is vastly overpriced, it's price doubled over the pandemic. You're right to not get the SUV D6, as my guess is with 6 speeds, it might have a freewheel instead of freehub, the latter is more durable and strong, plus a gear less. The Vybe D7 only has one thing I don't like, which is "monobeam" seatstays with no chainstays to triangulate. I prefer a triangle there as stronger and perhaps lighter, not sure. But they've been making that design for well over a decade so it should be proven durable. The big advantage of a mono is for those who mount a belt drive instead of chain, as the frame does not need to come apart to change a belt, but this is not possible with derailleur gearing, it must be single-speed or all internal hub gear, and derailleur gearing can be maintained and serviced by a non-pro.

EDIT: Both models above say aluminum frame, looks like they are going all-in with aluminum. D6 says cassette, weird, I think stupid to go 6 speeds if it's a freehub and can take a cassette, that's really pinching on that model.

Let us know how it works out!

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Old 03-31-24, 04:16 PM
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My bike came today!

The overall package is a little heavier than I thought.

When I opened the package I noticed there were plastic broken pieces at the bottom.

My first thought these pieces came from the bike but after inspecting the bike it doesn't seem so.

The bike comes 95% assembled. There are extra packaging that needs to be taken off.

While the left pedal is installed, the right pedal needs to be screwed out.

The seat clamps that keeps the seat up needed to be tighten.

The bike tires also needs to be pumped.

The instructions on the box stated to have your bike inspected by a bike technician before your warranty activated and bike can be used.

I like to know how important to have a bike technician inspect the bike before riding it?

There is a plastic white pipe which I have no idea that is used for. Is this a random just left over piece?


What is this white pipe?

What is this white pipe?
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Old 03-31-24, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RZetlin
My bike came today!

The overall package is a little heavier than I thought.

When I opened the package I noticed there were plastic broken pieces at the bottom.

My first thought these pieces came from the bike but after inspecting the bike it doesn't seem so.

The bike comes 95% assembled. There are extra packaging that needs to be taken off.

While the left pedal is installed, the right pedal needs to be screwed out.

The seat clamps that keeps the seat up needed to be tighten.

The bike tires also needs to be pumped.

The instructions on the box stated to have your bike inspected by a bike technician before your warranty activated and bike can be used.

I like to know how important to have a bike technician inspect the bike before riding it?

There is a plastic white pipe which I have no idea that is used for. Is this a random just left over piece?


What is this white pipe?

What is this white pipe?
no idea what the white pipe is. I'd be more interested in pics of the bike than of a random white pipe.
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Old 03-31-24, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
no idea what the white pipe is. I'd be more interested in pics of the bike than of a random white pipe.
I will get some bike pics later. I just was trying to figure out if the white pipe is important or not.
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Old 03-31-24, 04:31 PM
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My guess is the white pipe went cross-wise in the box to keep the contents from getting crushed. Possibly through both wheels (folded) to protect the rear derailleur. The broken plastic part is one of the caps from the pipe. Through the wheel would explain why the caps are different, one can be fixed, and the other slid on after pipe goes through bike.

If you are an experienced bike mechanic, you can do most things like mounting the wheels and such. However if you have no experience with the frame folding joint and the handlebar stem folding joint, you should have a bike shop that sells folders check adjustment and show you how tight it needs to be. For the frame joint, if it's an "over center" style latch, it's mostly how far the handle sits away from the frame when you first encounter resistance. You might find a video online. The stem on my bike has the same style latch, so same thing, but your stem may have a newer style latch which is wedged keys at the base, a bit more complex. Axle bearings should also be checked for correct adjustment, and brake pad alignment and cable adjustment. Also rear derailleur stop screws, and cable adjustment. If it came with a clear plastic spoke protector between the largest cog and the spokes, I recommend leaving it on, and add one if none present. Lastly, check true of wheels, both radially and laterally. And that headset adjustment is snug, and fixing bolts for base of stem and handlebars, and axle nut torque or quick-release adjustment.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-31-24 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 03-31-24, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RZetlin
My bike came today!

The overall package is a little heavier than I thought.

When I opened the package I noticed there were plastic broken pieces at the bottom.

My first thought these pieces came from the bike but after inspecting the bike it doesn't seem so.

The bike comes 95% assembled. There are extra packaging that needs to be taken off.

While the left pedal is installed, the right pedal needs to be screwed out.

The seat clamps that keeps the seat up needed to be tighten.

The bike tires also needs to be pumped.

The instructions on the box stated to have your bike inspected by a bike technician before your warranty activated and bike can be used.

I like to know how important to have a bike technician inspect the bike before riding it?

There is a plastic white pipe which I have no idea that is used for. Is this a random just left over piece?


What is this white pipe?

What is this white pipe?
That plastic "pipe" is for the seatpost. It's trash now, but it's to protect the bike during shipping. As long as the folder has arrived unscathed just toss it in the shipping box and be done with it.
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Old 03-31-24, 07:44 PM
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Setting a folding bike up for safe riding takes more know - how than a regular bike. I'd have it done the first time. Watch if you can, take notes. Then read a lot about Dahon maintenance, and enjoy learning how to diy as you ride. It's fun, and very satisfying.
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Old 03-31-24, 08:37 PM
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Ron's Basic Bike integrity Checklist
  • Hinge is closed, locked and tight
  • Ditto for the wheels and skewers
  • Ditto for the handlepost and handlebar
  • Ditto for the seatpost
  • Ditto for the crankset around the BB, the pedals around the crankset and pedal around the crank arms
  • Brakes are operational and locked tight
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