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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

Old 03-26-24, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Once again, as they'd say in SG, "same same lah". Except for the price, of course. 😛😛
And it has the eyelets for mudguards and racks. That’s for me. I’ll get one😉
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Old 03-26-24, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
As fast as a full sized bike of the same weight.
Nope, not in my experience. The X11 is fast for a foldie, but its not as fast as a full sized road bike. In my experience, for the same effort I go about 10% faster on a full sized road bike compared to my X11. I *can* keep up with road bikes on my X11, but boy is it hard work.

Last edited by Kabuto; 03-26-24 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 03-26-24, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Bike Friday has entered the chat.

For me, the biggest difference between ETRO 451 and ETRO 406 is feel. This Pocket Rocket with ETRO 451 feels like 700c bike. I have a nearly identical Pocket Crusoe with ETRO 406 and it doesn't feel like a 700c bike. The difference is not big but it is noticeable.
I don't know if they use the same fork and geometry, but if so, a larger outside diameter tire on the same fork will have greater trail, and thus feel more stable like a larger wheel bike. Trail is such that it doesn't take much height increase to make a significant difference. Which is why, for example, it would not be a good idea to buy an All-Packa, designed for big tires, and then subsitute smaller road tires.
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Old 03-26-24, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jfouellette
And it has the eyelets for mudguards and racks. That’s for me. I’ll get one😉
Awesome.
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Old 03-26-24, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Bike Friday has entered the chat.


...
Enter overpriced bike number 2.
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Old 03-26-24, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
Thats a poor man's clone. Only its not. The handle bar is not even adjustable. You can't skimp on QUALITY. The Sram force groupset alone costs around £1000. Same way people clone Bromptons. But there's nothing quite like the real thing. And it will make your money back many times over. In the years ahead.
If that's how you want to play it, then I'll say that your Tern is the silly spendthrift man's, road-bike-envy bike. Two can play at condescension.

I don't doubt that's the price of the SRAM gruppo in the UK that comes on it. But you can get comparable performance from Shimano for half the price. You wanna be silly about money, fine, but make no mistake, there are better value alternatives. The King still has no clothes.

Adjustable handlebar? That's a liability in my book, adding complexity, weight and a reduction in stiffness. You see it as a plus, to me it's a minus.

£2,400 seven years ago is £3,164 or $3,990 today. $3,990 sure buys a lot of confirmation bias. Yeah, it's the king, alright. The king of price. 💰 👑 💰 And you want to be taken seriously? GTFOH.​

Last edited by Ron Damon; 03-27-24 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
£2,400 seven years ago is £3,164 or $3,990 today. $3,990 sure buys a lot of confirmation bias.​
No shade on Tern as a brand from me (my adventures with an upgraded Link D8 are well documented in these parts) but if I was back in the UK with three grand spare today to drop on fast small wheeled folding bikes, a titanium Vello would be high up on my shopping list…
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Old 03-27-24, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
(above) There is marginal difference in outside diameter but a much larger percent difference in section height. This is why I don't run low-profile tires on my car, they bend rims on potholes.

Exactly! My car has 205 55 r16 tyres.

they’re miles cheaper
they roll better
the car rides better
the rim is less likely to crack
the difference in handling is negligible compared to 18 inch tyres

However, r18 rims look better on publicity photos….
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Old 03-27-24, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
If that's how you want to play it, then I'll say that your Tern is the silly spendthrift man's, road-bike-envy bike. Two can play at condescension.

I don't doubt that's the price of the SRAM gruppo that comes on it. But you can get comparable performance from Shimano for half the price. You wanna be silly about money, fine, but make no mistake, there are better value alternatives. The King still has no clothes.

Adjustable handlebar? That's a liability in my book, adding complexity, weight and a reduction in stiffness. You see it as a plus, to me it's a minus.

£2,400 seven years ago is £3,164 or $3,990 today. $3,990 sure buys a lot of confirmation bias. Yeah, it's the king, alright. The king of price. 💰 👑 💰 And you want to be taken seriously? GTFOH.​
No that's Flexibility. And the X11 is as stiff as a folder gets. Even after 7 years. You miss the point. You obviously didn't read my posts properly. I own no car. And I rarely use any public transport. So investing £2,400 in a high end bike while expensive to you. Was the best money I ever spent. You have people who spend more than that in a year on Cigarettes or alcohol. DRUGS To potentially kill themselves.

I spent £2,400 on an amazing bike to not only save me over £22,000 so far. But give me exercise too. Everything is relative. I love bikes. Other people blow their money on things and have nothing to show for it. And believe me £2,400 is nothing compared to what other people spend on even bikes. I have a friend who has a Moulton Speed. He spent £12,500 on that. And he rides it about 10 times a year. And still drives a car. I have another friend who bought a Rolex last year for £6,000. To me that's CRAZY.

And theres a Japanese guy on a YouTube channel called Brompton family time. He spent $5000 on a Tline Brompton. Then spends another $4000 on lightweight upgrades to knock another 2lbs of weight off the bike. And he STILL drives a car and takes the train. To me that's crazy. And I was in a well paid job. Everything is relative Mr.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-27-24 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
The Sram force groupset alone costs around £1000.
nope, the crankset is ~£200, and the gx derailleur and shifter is ~£250 cassette is £70

and manufacturers do not pay retail prices, they get “unpacked” components wrapped in bubble wrap.
last week I picked a new rival groupset for £200 from a manufacturer who was liquidating their stock and therefore sold it at least @ cost per uk law.
force 1 was about £400
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Old 03-27-24, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Barchettaman
Exactly! My car has 205 55 r16 tyres.

they’re miles cheaper
they roll better
the car rides better
the rim is less likely to crack
the difference in handling is negligible compared to 18 inch tyres

However, r18 rims look better on publicity photos….
Great minds think alike. If you're racy, low profile tires on larger rims provide room for bigger diameter brake discs, and the more rigid sidewalls provide lower tire slip angles when cornering. However, greater slip angle of the outer tire in a turn provides some ackermann geometry, which is why nearly all vehicles have steering geometry with well less than 100% ackermann, except low speed vehicles like golf carts that don't corner fast and operate on turf. So if you take a vehicle with a certain amount of design ackermann and then put stiffer tires on it, you don't have enough ackermann, and the tires squeal in tight turns in parking garages. And you feel every expansion strip.

55 aspect ratio used to be considered very low profile. Now I think 'Vettes come with 30 or 20? It's getting darned hard to find non-low-profile tires for my car that uses 14 or 15 inch wheels, can't remember.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-27-24 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz
nope, the crankset is ~£200, and the gx derailleur and shifter is ~£250 cassette is £70

and manufacturers do not pay retail prices, they get “unpacked” components wrapped in bubble wrap.
last week I picked a new rival groupset for £200 from a manufacturer who was liquidating their stock and therefore sold it at least @ cost per uk law.
force 1 was about £400
I dont get all this penny pinching. So what. I wanted a top end bike. And I got one. And its paid for itself 8 times over in what I've saved jn travel expenses. If I had paid that kind of money. And hardly ever used the bike. Like alot of people DO. That's another story.

Don't worry about how much something costs. Worry about how much its gonna save you. That's the point here. All you people arguing over a few thousand quid have missed the point completely.

Everything is relative. £2,400 seems like alot of money to someone who earns less than £30,000 a year. Its not to someone earning £80,000 a year. I can't stand tight people. I give more than £2,400 away to charities every year understand? Once again everything is RELATIVE.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-27-24 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
Nope, not in my experience. The X11 is fast for a foldie, but its not as fast as a full sized road bike. In my experience, for the same effort I go about 10% faster on a full sized road bike compared to my X11. I *can* keep up with road bikes on my X11, but boy is it hard work.
I agree, I train on my Dahon minivelo which is currently geared like my gravel bike race bike. on the same loop zone 2 type thing, I will be averaging 21 to 23 kph on the minivelo and about 27kph on the gravel bike.
When I go for a 50k leisured group ride with my mates, they are doing sort of zone 2 ride on their endurance road bike and my data show two consecutive cyclocross races... good for my training though.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
You can't skimp on QUALITY. The Sram force groupset alone costs around £1000.
The Tern X11 doesn't have a full Sram Force groupset though. Only the crankset and chainring is Force. The rear RD is from the X1 MTB groupset, which is the same grade as the Force road groupset, but Tern skimped on the trigger shifter, so that's GX grade, one down from X1, and the brakes are Shimano Deore, which is only fourth in the Shimano MTB hierarchy, sitting below XTR, XT, and SLX, so certainly not a particularly high end brake set. Actually, my main gripe with my X11 is its brakes. They're ok when riding on flats, but they overheat quickly and squeal like a banshee on any serious downhill. Still, all the components work adequately enough when set up properly.

Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Adjustable handlebar? That's a liability in my book, adding complexity, weight and a reduction in stiffness. You see it as a plus, to me it's a minus.

£2,400 seven years ago is £3,164 or $3,990 today. $3,990 sure buys a lot of confirmation bias. Yeah, it's the king, alright. The king of price. 💰 👑 💰 And you want to be taken seriously? GTFOH.​
The handlebar position isn't adjustable on the fly. The X11 handlepost and handlebar are actually extremely stiff, as is the frame. Bromptons feel downright noodley in comparison. iirc I think I paid about 198,000 yen (approx. 1550 Euros) for my X11 in August 2018, which seemed like a lot of money at the time, but I didn't really know much better and jumped in the deep end. If I knew what I know now about bikes back then, I think would have purchased something else.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Great minds think alike. If you're racy, low profile tires on larger rims provide room for bigger diameter brake discs, and the more rigid sidewalls provide lower tire slip angles when cornering. However, greater slip angle of the outer tire in a turn provides some ackermann geometry, which is why nearly all vehicles have steering geometry with well less than 100% ackermann, except low speed vehicles like golf carts that don't corner fast and operate on turf. So if you take a vehicle with a certain amount of design ackermann and then put stiffer tires on it, you don't have enough ackermann, and the tires squeal in tight turns in parking garages. And you feel every expansion strip.

55 aspect ratio used to be considered very low profile. Now I think 'Vettes come with 30 or 20? It's getting darned hard to find non-low-profile tires for my car that uses 14 or 15 inch wheels, can't remember.

yes, that's the sort f thing I did, race on dry(ish) tarmac with 50profil front and 45profil rear (~100mm sidewall in both cases) however, on crappy roads of wet, I run road legal wet tyre in 55profil front and 50profil rear (~110mm sidewall in both cases). It made in solter/smoother on poor surface and smoother/easier to control in slippery corners.

30/35 profil are becoming current but they tend to be on 245/255 tyres so it is still ~ 90mm sidewall
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Old 03-27-24, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
The Tern X11 doesn't have a full Sram Force groupset though. Only the crankset and chainring is Force. The rear RD is from the X1 MTB groupset, which is the same grade as the Force road groupset, but Tern skimped on the trigger shifter, so that's GX grade, one down from X1, and the brakes are Shimano Deore, which is only fourth in the Shimano MTB hierarchy, sitting below XTR, XT, and SLX, so certainly not a particularly high end brake set. Actually, my main gripe with my X11 is its brakes. They're ok when riding on flats, but they overheat quickly and squeal like a banshee on any serious downhill. Still, all the components work adequately enough when set up properly.



The handlebar position isn't adjustable on the fly. The X11 handlepost and handlebar are actually extremely stiff, as is the frame. Bromptons feel downright noodley in comparison. iirc I think I paid about 198,000 yen (approx. 1550 Euros) for my X11 in August 2018, which seemed like a lot of money at the time, but I didn't really know much better and jumped in the deep end. If I knew what I know now about bikes back then, I think would have purchased something else.
I own 3 bikes. Spent £ 2,400 on the X11 brand new. £800 On the X18 second hand. And £400 on the Dahon helios XX second hand.. All amazing bikes.

I ride the X11 alot more. Because everything about it is special. And even a 15 mile ride with hills feels good. It can handle it all.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-27-24 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Enter overpriced bike number 2.
Stop being so tight. It's only MONEY you are a long time dead understand? I cannot stand tight people..I give more than £2,400 to charities every year. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. I cannot stand TIGHT people PERIOD.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
Nope, not in my experience. The X11 is fast for a foldie, but its not as fast as a full sized road bike. In my experience, for the same effort I go about 10% faster on a full sized road bike compared to my X11. I *can* keep up with road bikes on my X11, but boy is it hard work.
Well in my experience compared to what I was able to get out of a full sized Trek hybrid about the same weight 24lbs. There's little in it. Not talking about a fully specked 16lb carbon road bike. Of course they're gonna be faster. My top speed on the Trek FX3 was about 28mph on the flat. Average speed around 14mph. And I get similar speeds on the X11. Well I did let's say when I was a stone lighter. Got a bit more lazy since I retired lol. And put on some pounds. Which I will try to knock off as the weather gets better. In fact the X11 is the only bike I've ever broken 30mph on the flat on. I had perfect conditions with the wind behind me 4 years ago on Woldingham Road on the way home. And broke 30mph. The X11 is so efficient the power transfer from the sram carbon crankset to those gorgeous Kinetix pro X wheels is wonderful..



And I find the X11 easier on steep hills. The Bigger wheeled bikes I always found myself having to come off the saddle on steep hills. I never have to come off the saddle on the X11. Its an incredible climber.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-27-24 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
I dont get all this penny pinching. So what. I wanted a top end bike. And I got one. And its paid for itself 8 times over in what I've saved jn travel expenses. If I had paid that kind of money. And hardly ever used the bike. Like alot of people DO. That's another story.

Don't worry about how much something costs. Worry about how much its gonna save you. That's the point here. All you people arguing over a few thousand quid have missed the point completely.

Everything is relative. £2,400 seems like alot of money to someone who earns less than £30,000 a year. Its not to someone earning £80,000 a year. I can't stand tight people. I give more than £2,400 away to charities every year understand? Once again everything is RELATIVE.

hang on a minute, you came here proclaiming that your tern x11 is the best thing since sliced bread and your views seem very reduced to the advantage of 451. People came to offer different opinions which were all valid. Then you moved to the financial topic and again, people gave you different views to which you replied that I could understand people spending of expensive bike, rolex etc. but you justified the tern being better the FNHON because it add more expensive components etc.
I am sorry but if you are giving judgement and opinion on a public forum, you need to be prepared to get them debated and if you are putting forwards incorrect facts, they will be corrected.

Dahon and Tern frame using to be made in the same factory, which was either owned by dahon or tern depending of the settlement agreement following the schism between Father and [Son + Mother/ex wife]. That factory made licenced frame for other people (Nottingham brand Raleigh for example). I would not be surprise to hear the FNHON are make in a factory that makes Tern bike. Then, the choice of component is different and swappable. Dismissing a frame because somebody chose different components is short sited.

My gravel has the same frame as vitus/tiffossi and many other bikes. the difference in price comes from the logistic (direct consumer supply) and buying power, what groupset, wheelset, accessories they could get for a given price and a different profitability business plan. Does it make worse that another bike with equivalent component despite being £1000 cheaper? no

Also, from what I saw in many UK CX race, many people race with a mix sram groupset, Force1 crankset because most of force weight advantage is in the crankset, Rival Brifter because as good as force and not much heavier and apex derailleur because cheap to replace after a crash...
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Old 03-27-24, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz
hang on a minute, you came here proclaiming that your tern x11 is the best thing since sliced bread and your views seem very reduced to the advantage of 451. People came to offer different opinions which were all valid. Then you moved to the financial topic and again, people gave you different views to which you replied that I could understand people spending of expensive bike, rolex etc. but you justified the tern being better the FNHON because it add more expensive components etc.
I am sorry but if you are giving judgement and opinion on a public forum, you need to be prepared to get them debated and if you are putting forwards incorrect facts, they will be corrected.

Dahon and Tern frame using to be made in the same factory, which was either owned by dahon or tern depending of the settlement agreement following the schism between Father and [Son + Mother/ex wife]. That factory made licenced frame for other people (Nottingham brand Raleigh for example). I would not be surprise to hear the FNHON are make in a factory that makes Tern bike. Then, the choice of component is different and swappable. Dismissing a frame because somebody chose different components is short sited.

My gravel has the same frame as vitus/tiffossi and many other bikes. the difference in price comes from the logistic (direct consumer supply) and buying power, what groupset, wheelset, accessories they could get for a given price and a different profitability business plan. Does it make worse that another bike with equivalent component despite being £1000 cheaper? no

Also, from what I saw in many UK CX race, many people race with a mix sram groupset, Force1 crankset because most of force weight advantage is in the crankset, Rival Brifter because as good as force and not much heavier and apex derailleur because cheap to replace after a crash...
When I say the X11 is the King of folders. That's my opinion understand. From my experience. You and anyone else can have a different opinion..and of course its clear you do. It's YOU who started making an issue about cost. And I gave you examples where people spend even more. And get nothing back.

It's like the New Tline Brompton. Its costs £4,500. IS that going to stop people buying it who worship the brand that is Brompton. Hell no. If you've got the money and want it. Youre going to buy it. Meanwhile somewhere in Taiwan they are knocking out clones costing less than half as much. And people will buy those too. So what? Money is money. And like water rises to its own level. People will spend at their own level.

Would I spend £4,500 on a Brompton Tline? Helll no. But let's say my X11 ever got stolen or damaged beyond repair. The very next day. I would be seeking to get another one. Because to ME. Its the greatest bike of ALLTIME PERIOD. Just Like to Shu on YouTube BFT channel. The TLINE Brompton is the greatest thing since sliced bread to him. Try to understand this as hard as it may be for you to do so.

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Old 03-27-24, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
. It's YOU who started making an issue about cost. .
No, you stated financial figures (wrong one) to justified quality: "You can't skimp on QUALITY. The Sram force groupset alone costs around £1000."

All I see is restricted views or deformed fact rather than actual facts and people are calling you on that.
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Old 03-27-24, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz
No, you stated financial figures (wrong one) to justified quality: "You can't skimp on QUALITY. The Sram force groupset alone costs around £1000."

All I see is restricted views or deformed fact rather than actual facts and people are calling you on that.
It's not about money that's the whole point. It's about what makes you HAPPY. Are you going to go to the BFT channel and tell Shu he is an idiot for spending over $9,000 on his Tline Brompton to date? Of course you aren't. You can call me on whatever you want. I have been riding bikes since 1973. And in my opinion the Tern Verge X11 is the greatest out of the box small wheeled bike of alltime. You can dis-agree all day long and you will. That won't change my opinion. Let's leave it at that.

You got triggered by an opinion.
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Old 03-27-24, 04:18 AM
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I agree with you, what is important is that a bike fits your needs and provides riding pleasure.

The price has no importance unless whats make you happy is not riding your bike but having the cheapest possible bike! If this is what makes you happy, an Fnhon frame with Litepro components is probably the best for you?
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Old 03-27-24, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Jipe
I agree with you, what is important is that a bike fits your needs and provides riding pleasure.

The price has no importance unless whats make you happy is not riding your bike but having the cheapest possible bike! If this is what makes you happy, an Fnhon frame with Litepro components is probably the best for you?
100% I've seen this argument against brands like Tern and Brompton a 1000 times all over YouTube. It makes me laugh. Yes the Tern X11 was expensive. But my gosh its got used. I've ridden it virtually everyday anything from 3 miles to 42 miles in a day over the last 7 years. Its paid for itself 8 times over. And it's in incredible condition for its age and use. I've never had to touch the brakes in 7 years for example. Everyone said the hydraulic brakes were overkill on a folding bike for example. The point they all missed was with them being so powerful. You hardly have to employ them to stop the bike quickly. I have them set in a position that only my fingertips hit them. And they are incredible. They've saved me from idiots opening their car doors suddenly. Or running out from behind a car many a time.

The quality of the bike shows itself over time. The frame is as stiff and robust as the day I first rode it. The wheelset still going strong. Never had a broken spoke. Its incredible. The only thing I've changed in 7 years. Is obviously tires. Chains a few cassettes and chainwheels. I changed out the seat post to a litepro after it got worn from all the up and down. And thats it.

Amazing bike.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-27-24 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 03-27-24, 05:31 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Enter overpriced bike number 2.
Why are you being needlessly antagonistic? We got a small group of folder fans here.
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