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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

Old 03-27-24, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Why are you being needlessly antagonistic? We got a small group of folder fans here.
He got triggered because I titled my thread Tern Verge X11 The KING OF FOLDERS. Thats all. I should have put IMO. So he thinks I am trying to state that as a fact. And sets out to rattle the cage and prove me wrong and a fool for buying an expensive brand folder. There are many like him. They usually live in the comments on youtube folding bike uploads. They need to lighten up.

We are going to buy what makes us happy. And makes our lives easier. I dont put a price on that. Certainly not for 2,400. I give over 3,000 to charity every year. The Tern Verge X11 is the most expensive thing I've ever bought in my life. And it's given me much joy. And saved me a tonne of money too. Let's keep that at the forefront.

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Old 03-27-24, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Why are you being needlessly antagonistic? We got a small group of folder fans here.
Why do you consider a different opinion "antagonistic"? All change, all significant change has come from conflict, a turning away from received wisdom and a clash of views.
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Old 03-27-24, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Why do you consider a different opinion "antagonistic"? All change, all significant change has come from conflict, a turning away from received wisdom and a clash of views.
What change are you talking about? We're on a bike forum having a friendly talk about folding bikes, sir, not in the streets fighting for human rights.
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Old 03-27-24, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
What change are you talking about? We're on a bike forum having a friendly talk about folding bikes, sir, not in the streets fighting for human rights.
Yeah this has all gotten out of hand over a folding bike. I should have known better at my age. You say something and someone's gonna get triggered and come for you.
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Old 03-27-24, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Enter overpriced bike number 2.
Its overpriced bike number 3, you forgot that I mentioned my Moulton Speed: 10K + 2K€ for wheelset+brakes+saddle+pedals upgrade (not any Litepro component on it)
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Old 03-27-24, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Jipe
Its overpriced bike number 3, you forgot that I mentioned my Moulton Speed: 10K + 2K for wheelset+brakes+saddle+pedals upgrade
I know someone with the Moulton Speed. It's a masterpiece with that incredible space frame. And FAST. But my gosh these guys want to talk about expensive bikes. 12,500 is what you really call expensive for a bike. You could never leave it anywhere. It would be stolen in minutes. You would need security lol or 4 litelok 1s. Which would take some toerag with a angle grinder over 30 minutes to cut through if you were popping into a shop. But that would mean carrying an extra 9lbs of weight with you. Not something many want to do.

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Old 03-27-24, 10:15 AM
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Price increased since I bought mine from Velorution in London in 2017 (these shops also disappeared since then)!

I discovered that actually almost nobody knows what it is and nobody knows the value of that bike (which is of course insured against theft, insuring a bike at that price is not a problem, there are many high end road bikes and high end MTB/eMTB at that price), the risk to have a Brompton stolen is much, much higher.

The biggest market for high end Moulton is not UK or Europe but Japan.
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Old 03-27-24, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Jipe
Price increased since I bought mine from Velorution in London in 2017 (these shops also disappeared since then)!

I discovered that actually almost nobody knows what it is and nobody knows the value of that bike (which is of course insured against theft, insuring a bike at that price is not a problem, there are many high end road bikes and high end MTB/eMTB at that price), the risk to have a Brompton stolen is much, much higher.

The biggest market for high end Moulton is not UK or Europe but Japan.
Yes they are bike crazy in Asia. Oh without question you don't leave your house with a bike of that value without it being insured. And I envy you having one. That's a dream bike for me. The only bike I would take over my X11. But I will never be able to afford 12,500.00. Have you ever seen that footage from 1963 Jipe. Where a team of moulton riders. Beat a team of full sized bike riders. On an inside track. 17inch wheels vs 27inch wheels. And they beat them. Also if I remember correctly a Moulton set the speed record for the fastest indoor speed ever in 1986. A rider called Jim Glover. 51mph on 17 inch wheels is INSANE.
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Old 03-27-24, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jipe
I discovered that actually almost nobody knows what it is and nobody knows the value of that bike (which is of course insured against theft, insuring a bike at that price is not a problem, there are many high end road bikes and high end MTB/eMTB at that price), the risk to have a Brompton stolen is much, much higher.

The biggest market for high end Moulton is not UK or Europe but Japan.
There is more dependence on location. I can park Brompton in an African street and nobody knows what sort of a bike it is. If a guard is in front of the store, I do not lock the bike. If someone stole the bike, they could not tell it from a no-name folder, and folders generally are of little public interest. In farther out suburban France or the US, you can lock the Brompton with a minor lock and go shopping - nobody cares or knows about any value your bike might represent. In Japan, you can lock your bike and go around your stuff because people do not steal. In Paris, France, I would not dare to blink while facing my bike from 1m away, attached to a rack with some top-of-the-line Abus. The chances of the bike disappearing during the blink are too high.
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Old 03-27-24, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 2_i
There is more dependence on location. I can park Brompton in an African street and nobody knows what sort of a bike it is. If a guard is in front of the store, I do not lock the bike. If someone stole the bike, they could not tell it from a no-name folder, and folders generally are of little public interest. In farther out suburban France or the US, you can lock the Brompton with a minor lock and go shopping - nobody cares or knows about any value your bike might represent. In Japan, you can lock your bike and go around your stuff because people do not steal. In Paris, France, I would not dare to blink while facing my bike from 1m away, attached to a rack with some top-of-the-line Abus. The chances of the bike disappearing during the blink are too high.
Is it really that bad in Paris. You need 3 litelok 1s. Then you can go shopping for 20 minutes. It would take any Parisiian scum with an angle grinder over 20 minutes to get all 3 of them off. A friend of mine put 3 of them on his ceravelo. Came back 15 minutes later to find some toerag working on the first one with an angle grinder. And told him the police are on the way. He ran like a scared rat.
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Old 03-27-24, 06:33 PM
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How this thread should have gone, in my opinion:
"X11 is the king of folders, especially due to the fast 451 wheels."
"Uh, I think the same kind of tires would be just as fast on 406, they are very close in size."
"OK, I can see that. But the frame is awesome, I get no flex when I hammer on it."
"Yes, it's a nice looking design. What you feel is torsional stiffness, and the large diameter hydroformed frame helps; Torsional stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of radius/diameter, so even a little larger tube gives you a lot more stiffness."
(others) "But you can buy the same frame design in a much cheaper copy."
"Now, yes. Back when the OP bought the bike, no. It took some years for others to buy an X11, measure it outside and then cut it apart to measure wall thicknesses, then make tooling to produce a copy, not respecting intellectual property. Meanwhile, the OP was enjoying his X11 for years."

From a story online about a sailboat designer working with Taiwan builders in the 1970s:
Also in Taiwan the Perry 47 was underway and I was becoming increasingly aware of other boats building in Taiwan that were, to use the colloquial, "rip-offs" of my work. One builder simply took my drawings for the CT 54, put their logo on my sail plan and produced a brochure for their new 54'er. This caused awkward moment in my normally smooth relationship with Ta Chaio. But it passed when I told them I had absolutely nothing to do with that project and I had not sold them the same design. "Intellectual property rights" was a novel concept in Taiwan. Settling down in my business class seat for the flight home one time I noticed that almost every man in the section was wearing a gold "Rolex". I quickly took mine off. You could buy a "Rolex" ( "Fauxlex") in Taiwan for $35 in those days.
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." - The Dude, The Big Lebowski (1998)

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Old 03-27-24, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
...
(others) "But you can buy the same frame design in a much cheaper copy."
"Now, yes. Back when the OP bought the bike, no. It took some years for others to buy an X11, measure it outside and then cut it apart to measure wall thicknesses, then make tooling to produce a copy, not respecting intellectual property. Meanwhile, the OP was enjoying his X11 for years."
...


"Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." - The Dude, The Big Lebowski (1998)
Except that the FnHon Tornado has been out for at least seven years. That's not opinion. Here it is on the FnHon website from eons ago when it was still only for rim brakes.
​​​​​​https://www.fnhon.com/index.php/default/content/10.html
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Old 03-27-24, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
How this thread should have gone, in my opinion:
"X11 is the king of folders, especially due to the fast 451 wheels."
"Uh, I think the same kind of tires would be just as fast on 406, they are very close in size."
"OK, I can see that. But the frame is awesome, I get no flex when I hammer on it."
"Yes, it's a nice looking design. What you feel is torsional stiffness, and the large diameter hydroformed frame helps; Torsional stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of radius/diameter, so even a little larger tube gives you a lot more stiffness."
(others) "But you can buy the same frame design in a much cheaper copy."
"Now, yes. Back when the OP bought the bike, no. It took some years for others to buy an X11, measure it outside and then cut it apart to measure wall thicknesses, then make tooling to produce a copy, not respecting intellectual property. Meanwhile, the OP was enjoying his X11 for years."

From a story online about a sailboat designer working with Taiwan builders in the 1970s:


"Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." - The Dude, The Big Lebowski (1998)
Very good...
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Old 03-27-24, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Except that the FnHon Tornado has been out for at least seven years. That's not opinion.
Oh boy here go again.
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Old 03-27-24, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sentinel1
oh boy here go again.
$3,990. 😂 For a Tern. 😂😂 Yeah, bro. I still can't get over it. What's next? A $5,000 Or!gami? 😂😂😂

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Old 03-27-24, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
$3,990. 😂😂😂 Yeah, bro. I still can't get over it.
You keep going on about 2,400 like it's a fortune. 12,500 for a bike is a fortune. Get it into perspective BRO. You must be a very tight mean person. Or broke all the time. I give more than that to charity every year.

Remember one man's fortune is another man's spending money for the weekend. The playing field is not level.

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Old 03-28-24, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Except that the FnHon Tornado has been out for at least seven years. That's not opinion. Here it is on the FnHon website from eons ago when it was still only for rim brakes.
​​​​​​Tornado20 - 20 - ??
Link wouldn't connect. But I verified same age of X11 from article online.

I don't think FnHon developed this independently, it's too close in design, right down to the side creases on the main frame tube. I think it was just a very rapidly executed copy, soon after the X11 market debut, probably starting as soon as it was shown in trade shows before. So yeah, a much cheaper copy available, quickly.

But you cannot really fault someone for paying full price, if for no other reason than respecting intellectual property. And for some, they don't wrench, they want a full turn-key bike.

Where I grew up, there was an upscale department store, their prices were always high list MSRP, and I wondered how they could compete. And then as an adult I learned, because they offered exceptional service, and because their clientele wouldn't dream of buying things on sale, it was beneath them. Seriously. This store got by on a limited, upscale clientele for decades. Looking online now, they went belly-up in 2002 after 164 years in business.

I grew up poor, and it's never left me (to a fault, even after university and a well-paying career, I'm terrified of debt, never borrowed a dime, never bought on credit, worked my way through college). I tip generously at restaurants, but otherwise, I'm frugal; I shop carefully, fix things myself, keep a quality item of clothing *forever* (classic styles, do herringbone and tweed blazers ever go out of style?), mostly cook superbly for myself at incredibly low cost, never bought a new car. Thank goodness for youtube repair videos for things that are beyond even my extensive knowledge.

Others spend more easily. Don't fault them. If everyone was like me, the world economy would crash.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-28-24 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 03-28-24, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Link wouldn't connect. But I verified same age of X11 from article online.

I don't think FnHon developed this independently, it's too close in design, right down to the side creases on the main frame tube. I think it was just a very rapidly executed copy, soon after the X11 market debut, probably starting as soon as it was shown in trade shows before. So yeah, a much cheaper copy available, quickly.

But you cannot really fault someone for paying full price, if for no other reason than respecting intellectual property. And for some, they don't wrench, they want a full turn-key bike.

Where I grew up, there was an upscale department store, their prices were always high list MSRP, and I wondered how they could compete. And then as an adult I learned, because they offered exceptional service, and because their clientele wouldn't dream of buying things on sale, it was beneath them. Seriously. This store got by on a limited, upscale clientele for decades. Looking online now, they went belly-up in 2002 after 164 years in business.

I grew up poor, and it's never left me. I tip generously at restaurants, but otherwise, I'm frugal; I shop carefully, fix things myself, keep a quality item of clothing *forever* (classic styles, do herringbone and tweed blazers ever go out of style?), mostly cook superbly for myself at incredibly low cost, never bought a new car. Thank goodness for youtube repair videos for things that are beyond even my extensive knowledge.

Others spend more easily. Don't fault them. If everyone was like me, the world economy would crash.
it's like I said 2,400 It's alot of money in 2017 sure. But I could easily afford it. I'm a business man who loves folding bikes. I wanted a great bike out of the box. Sure some hands on Harry with the knowledge can source the parts themselves. And save a lot of money. But I saw the X11 and fell in love with it on sight. And when I test rode it. GAME OVER.

I bought it on the spot. It was there the finished article. I didnt have time to waste because I was too busy making money. And as I have said its paid for itself many times over.

So was it money well spent? Absolutely. The people I don't get. Are the people who spend alot of money on something. And it just sits there unused. Of no benefit. That's when you have something to criticise.

Like someone I know who spends over a 1000 a year on A gym membership. And goes like 3 times a year. Now that's crazy and a waste of money no?

And you used the word FRUGAL. We'll for a man with money I am frugal. I would never waste money on a luxury car like a Mercedes like some of my friends do. Or a Rolex watch. Think about this. I know someone who has 15,000 sitting on their wrist. Just to tell the time. I could go out and buy that same watch today. But to ME that's a horrendous waste of money. I would rather help homeless people with that money and I do. The most expensive thing I've ever bought in my life after my house is the X11. And it's saved me over 22,000. It had purpose.

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Old 03-28-24, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
And you used the word FRUGAL.
Hey I was only talking about ME being frugal, to a fault (said so in revision after you already quoted me). You're fine dude.

In 1989, last year of college, I splurged on a road race bike which seemed like an exceptional value, a bike that could have won the TdF 5 years prior, technology was progressing rapidly, USD$700 was a lot to me then before even professional employment, but I put a TON of miles on that bike. I've estimated 70,000 miles over 15 years before it was retired for a townie with panniers, but I still have that bike in storage, it has sentimental value to me, I rode it so much. On third set of wheels.

A review of the X11 from 2017 shows it was spec'ed with premium components, from a carbon crank to light wheels to hydraulic brakes, and fast for a folder. With all the riding you've done, sounds like excellent value for you, especially in place of a car.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-28-24 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 03-28-24, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Hey I was only talking about ME being frugal, to a fault (said so in revision after you already quoted me). You're fine dude.

In 1989, last year of college, I splurged on a road race bike which seemed like an exceptional value, a bike that could have won the TdF 5 years prior, technology was progressing rapidly, USD$700 was a lot to me then before even professional employment, but I put a TON of miles on that bike. I've estimated 70,000 miles over 15 years before it was retired for a townie with panniers, but I still have that bike in storage, it has sentimental value to me, I rode it so much. On third set of wheels.

A review of the X11 from 2017 shows it was spec'ed with premium components, from a carbon crank to light wheels to hydraulic brakes, and fast for a folder. With all the riding you've done, sounds like excellent value for you, especially in place of a car.
Yeah I know. But that's generally me too. I see my peers in expensive cars. That not only cost alot to buy. But cost alot to RUN. And I am proud that I have saved tens of thousands over the years thats gone to better use.

I'm not a person who racks up alot of miles. Like these spandex boys I see group riding on the weekends on their 100 mile rides. I am the eternal commuter. Where I would have spent 12 on a train ticket. I ride there. During my working years. My commute back and forth would have set me back over 1,300. a year. So just my commute 2017 to 2019. Paid for the X11. Plus I would ride across London 2 to 4 tines a month. And basically anywhere over 2 miles away I'm going on the X11. Or the X18/Dahon. So you talk about frugal. I would keep a daily tab of what I saved in travel expenses. Had I made the journey by bus or train. And to date it comes to 23,469.00. And what I do with alot of that money I save on travel. Is help homeless shelters. And food banks for the less fortunate. So it all had purpose. I get to transport and exercise on the wonderful X11 and the other bikes. And I get to save money which I spend to help the less fortunate. Its all good.

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Old 03-28-24, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
... Or broke all the time. I give more than that to charity every year.

Remember one man's fortune is another man's spending money for the weekend. The playing field is not level.
Yeah, you keep reminding us of your philanthropic activities. As if that has anything to do with it. Or as if boasting about your charity is charitable and casts a positive light on you.

It's not about having or not having money. It's not about being able to afford it or not. Don't get confused or change the topic to avoid scrutiny. We ain't dumb and we are on to you. It's about the wisdom, good sense of paying $3,990 for a bifold Tern. And it's also about not being gauche and broadcasting to the world how wealthy you are.

​​​​​​

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Old 03-28-24, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Yeah, you keep reminding us of your philanthropic activities. As if that has anything to do with it. Or as if boasting about your charity is charitable and casts a positive light on you.

It's not about having or not having money. It's not about being able to afford it or not. Don't get confused or change the topic to avoid scrutiny. It's about the wisdom, good sense of paying $3,990 for a bifold Tern. And it's also about not being gauche and broadcasting to the world how wealthy you are.

​​​​​​
No its about does it make you happy and benefit you in the longrun. And the X11 ticked both those boxes for me. And still does. And thats the point. I'm still enjoying the bike. And it's still saving me money. You talk as if I'm the only person who bought the X11 or any expensive bike like the new Bromptons. That's what's so amusing about you. And you seem to have a bee in your bonet about Tern in general. That's your problem get over it. I see people like you in the comments on youtube all the time. Anti big bike companies is how they term it. Like I said before I would buy the X11 again if I had to. I love the bike period.

You can go source your components and build it yourself or get someone else to build it. And save yourself some money. That's your bag. To each their own. Live and let live.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-28-24 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 03-28-24, 09:44 PM
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IMO, Tern makes good ebikes and unique accessories like racks
But I think Dahon is at the forefront of folding bike technology, with their deltec cable, lockjaw v2 hinges, pyramid shaped folding stems, carbon lockjaw folding bikes, etc

Dahon also doesn't have a history of hinge failures, and expensive components on the Tern can be easily fitted onto the Dahon

The only compelling bike from Tern is the Verge X18 with the dropbars, but even that can be modified onto the Dahon at a fraction of the price
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Old 03-28-24, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by vuurmot
IMO, Tern makes good ebikes and unique accessories like racks
But I think Dahon is at the forefront of folding bike technology, with their deltec cable, lockjaw v2 hinges, pyramid shaped folding stems, carbon lockjaw folding bikes, etc

Dahon also doesn't have a history of hinge failures, and expensive components on the Tern can be easily fitted onto the Dahon

The only compelling bike from Tern is the Verge X18 with the dropbars, but even that can be modified onto the Dahon at a fraction of the price
I agree, with the following notes:
- Dahon prices doubled over the pandemic, and are beginning to approach those of companies with far better customer service, like Bike Friday; I only haven't bought a BF because it's a messier fold versus a bifold like my Dahon.
- There are a lot more competitors at much lower prices now, but admittedly, they are riding on the coattails of Dahon, by copying most or all of their designs, without the development costs.
- Tern electric bikes, and especially the long ones like the GSD, at $6-10k+, were groundbreaking for the market, and I'm sure fat profit margins for Tern. In more affluent cities with a shortage of car parking, residents are using those for full time transport, but only if they can easily bring it inside at both home and their destination; Even with the wheel lock, two people could easily throw one in a van to make off with it. That said, I met someone on the trail with a decent copy of a GSD which cost them something like USD$1700 if I recall.
- Dahon doesn't seem to sell their best products in all markets; There's a video of a new model Archer with everything I want; disc brakes, 2X gearing, and a bonus of what appears to be dressed welds for improved aesthetics and more durability (reduces cracks at weld edges). But it's not planned to be available in the USA. But it does represent Dahon swinging harder for a superior product. That said, the Mariner is priced only $50 (5%) less than the Launch, the latter of which is a superior bike with disc brakes and a better hinge. A dealer says the Mariner is a well known name, that's why, and most people use a Dahon folder just as an occasional folder, not like me where it's my everyday townie and tourer.
- A nearby dealer who used to stock Dahon, now doesn't. Gotta be a reason for it, they sell other folders.
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Old 03-28-24, 10:12 PM
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Also, from a performance standpoint, something like a Tyrell with it's diamond structure would be better.
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
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