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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

Old 03-28-24, 10:21 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by vuurmot
Also, from a performance standpoint, something like a Tyrell with it's diamond structure would be better.
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
No folding bike performs better than the X11. After 7 years it's as good as the day I bought it. That frame is a work of art. Copied but never surpassed. Alot of people run their mouths on these threads. And they've never even ridden a bike as great as the X11. Without Dahon there could be no Tern. As the company was started by Dr David Hons son. But make no mistake about it. The Tern verge X11 Is the absolute zenith of folding bikes. I can't speak to the lessor models of Tern. Like the links and earlier generations of verges. I have the Tern verge X18. And the Tern Verge X11. And theyre solid.

I've ridden cheap folders. And you know you are riding a folding bike. You can feel the give. The flex as they call it. When I'm on the X11. I forget I'm even riding a folder. It's so stiff and responsive. All your watts are being used to their maximum.

That frame is a work of art. The joints solid. The quality really shows itself. And it's addictive. You can't wait for your next ride. And thats the point. When a bike feels as good to ride as the X11. its going to get used and money is going to get saved. On expensive crappy public transport and cars.

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Old 03-28-24, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by vuurmot
Also, from a performance standpoint, something like a Tyrell with it's diamond structure would be better.
Stiffness and power transfer in some ways, comes from frame strength
https://flatbike.com/the-safety-valu...-folding-bike/
Good article in link, thanks.
- Tyrell has a much larger folded profile, due to the tall head tube, which is not necessary. My long, non-telescoping, chrome-moly steel stem/riser, is plenty rigid for climbing.
- Power delivery is mostly a function of frame torsional stiffness. My old Cannondale design was based on that, a 2" diameter downtube, greatly increasing torsional stiffness, it was the stiffest bike Bicycling mag has ever tested, incredible for sprinting. But also a harsh ride, too stiff in bending. Bike Friday New World Tourist pioneered the monobeam folder, by using a much larger diameter tube, so equal torsional stiffness to a conventional diamond frame. My Dahon bifold is similar, just a hinge added. My improvised deltec noticeably tighten up the hinge by loading it in compression and not bending moment; Dahon upped their max weight spec to 300 lbs and doubled their warranty to 10 years for all factory Deltech bikes. Bike Friday later offered their Diamond Llama with diamond frame, not for increased torsional stiffness, but increased bending strength, as it was designed with wide tires to beat it off-road and still not break. Their new All-Packa is very similar. Both have tall stems/risers and short head tubes, however, that on a BF is noticeably skinnier and I would guess more flex when climbing, BF prioritized using off-the-shelf components as much as possible, no one had yet tooled up a large diameter tapered folding stem; I consider this a weak point and feel BF should update their design on that.
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Old 03-28-24, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
- Tyrell has a much larger folded profile, due to the tall head tube, which is not necessary. My long, non-telescoping, chrome-moly steel stem/riser, is plenty rigid for climbing.
I imagined it more in road bike terms, when you are sprinting and making yourself as aero as possible.
My specialized tarmac road bike cracked and I was trying to replicate the ride feel on my dahon(lol I know this is silly)

IMO the long, folding stem is the critical component that makes the ride feel less ideal
Hoping dahon will manufacture the dahon clinch design for the masses (it seems out of stock everywhere), with its longer headtube and short folding stem
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Old 03-28-24, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by vuurmot
I imagined it more in road bike terms, when you are sprinting and making yourself as aero as possible.
My specialized tarmac road bike cracked and I was trying to replicate the ride feel on my dahon(lol I know this is silly)

IMO the long, folding stem is the critical component that makes the ride feel less ideal
Hoping dahon will manufacture the dahon clinch design for the masses (it seems out of stock everywhere), with its longer headtube and short folding stem
I have another Dahon with the aluminum telescoping stem, that one I can feel a bit of lateral flex when climbing, but still not bad, mostly due to the telescoping design and not aluminum. I've heard one-piece long aluminum stems are plenty rigid, they've really improved the design for the forged tapered ones, like my long one-piece vintage steel one, to go with my steel frame. Notably, Dahon used the fixed steel stem on their intended touring TR model, for climbing with heavy pannier loads, I would imagine, all their aluminum stems were of telescoping type.
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Old 03-28-24, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
I have another Dahon with the aluminum telescoping stem, that one I can feel a bit of lateral flex when climbing, but still not bad, mostly due to the telescoping design and not aluminum. I've heard one-piece long aluminum stems are plenty rigid, they've really improved the design for the forged tapered ones, like my long one-piece vintage steel one, to go with my steel frame. Notably, Dahon used the fixed steel stem on their intended touring TR model, for climbing with heavy pannier loads, I would imagine, all their aluminum stems were of telescoping type.
Dahon bikes are rubbish now and goddamm ugly to look at. They peaked 12 to 15 years ago with their MU range the Dahon MU SL. And EX were superb. Now they are making these heavy ugly bikes like the Mariner. I would never have ridden a folder if that's what I had to sit on.

Theyve gone backwards. The same with Tern. The peak the zenith of folding bikes were. The

DAHON MU SL
DAHON MU EX
TERN VERGE X10
TERN VERGE X20
TERN VERGE X11--THE GOAT PERIOD.


You can keep the rest.

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Old 03-28-24, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
Dahon bikes are rubbish now and goddamm ugly to look at. They peaked 12 to 15 years ago with their MU range the Dahon MU SL. And EX were superb. Now they are making these heavy ugly bikes like the Mariner. I would never have ridden a folder if that's what I had to sit on.

Theyve gone backwards. The same with Tern. The peak the zenith of folding bikes were. The

DAHON MU SL
DAHON MU EX
TERN VERGE X10
TERN VERGE X20
TERN VERGE X11--THE GOAT PERIOD.


You can keep the rest.
I never warmed to the styling on the Mu, but it was superior, as I recall it had a better hinge clamp design that engaged laterally on both sides, not sure.

My 4130 steel Speed is circa 2008, replacing an earlier one that cracked at the seat tube due to earlier plastic bushing, this one is aluminum bushing and holding up so far, but still has a lot less miles. The welds are really superb, and much more minimalist than the aluminum frames requiring a bigger weld. Who knows the future for Dahon? They might surprise us.

Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World", and produced good cars up until the 1960s, then they got overweight, poorly engineered, and poor quality. They reached their lowpoint with the Cimarron, a joke, so bad that current Caddy design has a framed pic on the wall with the caption, "Lest we forget." The 1990s got a bit better design and quality. Then about 20 years ago they starting trying hard, more sporty and lighter, back to rear wheel drive, and in the past 10 years have gotten competitive with the best BMWs (their target on several vehicles) and better quality and reliability (BMW has really gone downhill in that regard, you can find used ones just out of warranty dirt cheap). I'd love an ATS-V if I had boatloads of money, some mags have compared and rated it better than the M3. Lincoln on the other hand, is inches from the grave, they haven't turned themselves around.

So I wouldn't count Dahon out. I'm definitely NOT a cheerleader for them, but looking objectively, I think they see the threat from competitors and will be trying to put out a more premium product, like that latest Archer I saw online with smooth dressed welds and futher improved folding joint, but they probably won't sell it in the USA.

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Old 03-29-24, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
I never warmed to the styling on the Mu, but it was superior, as I recall it had a better hinge clamp design that engaged laterally on both sides, not sure.

My 4130 steel Speed is circa 2008, replacing an earlier one that cracked at the seat tube due to earlier plastic bushing, this one is aluminum bushing and holding up so far, but still has a lot less miles. The welds are really superb, and much more minimalist than the aluminum frames requiring a bigger weld. Who knows the future for Dahon? They might surprise us.

Cadillac used to be "The Standard of the World", and produced good cars up until the 1960s, then they got overweight, poorly engineered, and poor quality. They reached their lowpoint with the Cimarron, a joke, so bad that current Caddy design has a framed pic on the wall with the caption, "Lest we forget." The 1990s got a bit better design and quality. Then about 20 years ago they starting trying hard, more sporty and lighter, back to rear wheel drive, and in the past 10 years have gotten competitive with the best BMWs (their target on several vehicles) and better quality and reliability (BMW has really gone downhill in that regard, you can find used ones just out of warranty dirt cheap). I'd love an ATS-V if I had boatloads of money, some mags have compared and rated it better than the M3. Lincoln on the other hand, is inches from the grave, they haven't turned themselves around.

So I wouldn't count Dahon out. I'm definitely NOT a cheerleader for them, but looking objectively, I think they see the threat from competitors and will be trying to put out a more premium product, like that latest Archer I saw online with smooth dressed welds and futher improved folding joint, but they probably won't sell it in the USA.
Americans cant get past Brompton when it comes to folders. They're a fickle jump the band wagon breed. Asians know bikes. I was recommended the X11 by my Philipino friend. He already had one. And was going on about how great it was. Now I understand the enthusiasm.

The Dahon MU SL is a very nice bike I've ridden one. Its almost there. The X11 is there and then some. You get on that bike and you can't ask for anymore. Its stiff, fast. Handles corners and rough roads with ease. It's the boss of hill climbing. Which was the chief reason I fell in love with it. Where I live has more uphill grades. Holland this ain't. Any clumsy heavy bike is gonna kill you around where I live. Brompton make expensive bikes that cant even climb steep hills. They fold nice and thats it.

So if Dahon and Tern for that matter want to come back. They need to stick with the best. And thats the dolphin hydroformed frame. They've been cheaping out with budget heavy folders. To get a bigger market. Like the Mariner D8. And the Link D8.

And thats all good and well. But they need their show pieces the PREMIUM models that look sexy. And perform to the highest standard

I cant stand electric bikes. You may aswell just get a moped. You get a quality bike like the X11 you dont need no electric plug me in crap. Big ugly heavy cumbersome crap. Croydon is chock full of them and these annoying food delivery riders.

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Old 03-29-24, 12:21 AM
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My bifold 20"/406 is my townie with rare but occasional folded duties to transport by car or train. But if I fly with it, it's gonna be a pain in the @ss to get it down to checked bag size, I'll probably need to put into two checked bags or parcels. So for travel, if not heavy touring, I might get a Brompton, unless I take a trip to southeast Asia and buy a clone there at 1/3 the price and no $300 shipping to the states, bring it back home, easy, just fold it, nothing else needed. I normally heavy tour but in some of SE Asia I could afford to credit card tour.

I hadn't known about Japan's appreciation for bikes until this past year and reading Bicycle Quarterly at my library.
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Old 03-29-24, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
My bifold 20"/406 is my townie with rare but occasional folded duties to transport by car or train. But if I fly with it, it's gonna be a pain in the @ss to get it down to checked bag size, I'll probably need to put into two checked bags or parcels. So for travel, if not heavy touring, I might get a Brompton, unless I take a trip to southeast Asia and buy a clone there at 1/3 the price and no $300 shipping to the states, bring it back home, easy, just fold it, nothing else needed. I normally heavy tour but in some of SE Asia I could afford to credit card tour.

I hadn't known about Japan's appreciation for bikes until this past year and reading Bicycle Quarterly at my library.
Asians are bike crazy its a real passion with them. Some of the most bling bikes on earth. Will be seen on the streets of Singapore. Philippines, Japan etc.

Look if you are multi modul travelling. Nothing beats a Brompton. Or early Dahon. There's a Dahon K3 plus that folds small. It's wheels are even smaller than the Brompton.

But the only time I will ever get on public transport with a bike is if it has an issue I can't fix on the road. Or I'm travelling outside of London. This drive 6 miles and ride the last two I've never understood.

Just ride the whole journey already. And save a tonne of money. That's why the X11 rules. Its almost as fast as a full sized road bike. It's the boss on hills. And if need be you can fold it up for other transport.

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Old 03-29-24, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
Asians are bike crazy its a real passion with them. Some of the most bling bikes on earth. Will be seen on the streets of Singapore. Philippines, Japan etc.

Look if you are multi modul travelling. Nothing beats a Brompton. Or early Dahon. There's a Dahon K3 plus that folds small. It's wheels are even smaller than the Brompton.

But the only time I will ever get on public transport with a bike is if it has an issue I can't fix on the road. Or I'm travelling outside of London. This drive 6 miles and ride the last two I've never understood.

Just ride the whole journey already. And save a tonne of money. That's why the X11 rules. Its almost as fast as a full sized road bike. It's the boss on hills. And if need be you can fold it up for other transport.
Oh it's always my choice to ride. I'm not talking city distances, I go long on that, though not as far as I used to. My car also stays parked for months at a time, I have to disconnect the battery for it to not run down. I'm talking about a half-day train trip, I was not up to riding that distance, and it was fresh after my whole 2X conversion, which did have a problem that I corrected once home. Rather than drive, train trip was cheaper than the fuel, plus there was a shuttle for an hour trip from the train to the coast, fantastically cheap at like $7 each direction; Called first to make sure the bike rack in the pic would hold my 20" bike, they said yes, I get there and it clamps around the front tire, won't work with my front rack. No biggie, I just folded it and brought on board, put in the unused wheelchair area. On trip back, didn't even bother folding it, it fit fine unfolded in same area.

I wish I could train to see a relative, so much easier bike transport, don't even need to bag it, but it would be 24 hours of sitting and I can't sit that long in those seats, and a sleep room would be way more cost than flying. I'll either devise a flying method for this bike, or get a Brompton, probably the former as a Brompton is a couple grand and since only for travel, I think I'd only get if it was a much cheaper clone.

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Old 03-29-24, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
No folding bike performs better than the X11.
A clickbait statement to me. I would agree with your rational in buying that bike. It is a very nice bike. However, can you offer any proof? Why is it better than the Swift. Is it stiffer? How about a Change/Flatbike.

The fact that it is a 451 wheel size is a turn-off for me.
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Old 03-29-24, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by vuurmot
Hoping dahon will manufacture the dahon clinch design for the masses (it seems out of stock everywhere), with its longer headtube and short folding stem
This Dahon, in an affordable aluminum or chromoly steel frame, is something I've dreamed about ever since the design was originally announced years ago. Would I spend $2000 plus for it? I'm not too sure about that. It's possible... $3000-$4000 plus? NOPE!!!
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Old 03-29-24, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta
A clickbait statement to me. I would agree with your rational in buying that bike. It is a very nice bike. However, can you offer any proof? Why is it better than the Swift. Is it stiffer? How about a Change/Flatbike.

The fact that it is a 451 wheel size is a turn-off for me.
The 451 wheelset is one of the factors that make it a supreme performer. How do I know. Because I've ridden 406mm folders over the same routes. I've ridden the X11. And it's two different experiences.

I cant vouch for the swift. All I can tell you is a folding bike can't be any stiffer with a joint in the crossbar. Let's put it like that. The only folding bike that might be a bit stiffer we're it not for the suspension is the Birdy R20. I tried that bike. Because it has no join in the middle of the frame.
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Old 03-29-24, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
The 451 wheelset is one of the factors that make it a supreme performer. How do I know. Because I've ridden 406mm folders over the same routes. I've ridden the X11. And it's two different experiences.

I cant vouch for the swift. All I can tell you is a folding bike can't be any stiffer with a joint in the crossbar. Let's put it like that. The only folding bike that might be a bit stiffer we're it not for the suspension is the Birdy R20. I tried that bike. Because it has no join in the middle of the frame.
I have had 451 and the tire selection is lacking in comparison. They have usually ridden a little harsher, but that was mainly due to narrow tires. Even 1 3/8 was getting hard to find. I do think though, you are mainly experiencing the wheels/tires and then the stiffness. I believe I am pretty sensitive over stiffness and that it is a not uncommon characteristic, even for folders, and particularly folders without the joint in the middle of the top tube. Terns specs them pretty high and charges pretty high. If I see one at a bike shop, I will try it. Anyway it is a nice bike but king of folders, no.
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Old 03-29-24, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta
I have had 451 and the tire selection is lacking in comparison. They have usually ridden a little harsher, but that was mainly due to narrow tires. Even 1 3/8 was getting hard to find. I do think though, you are mainly experiencing the wheels/tires and then the stiffness. I believe I am pretty sensitive over stiffness and that it is a not uncommon characteristic, even for folders, and particularly folders without the joint in the middle of the top tube. Terns specs them pretty high and charges pretty high. If I see one at a bike shop, I will try it. Anyway it is a nice bike but king of folders, no.
It's the king of folders IMO. You can run up any bike you like. For an out of the box folder. There's never been anything greater in my book. And I've had 6 folders in my time.

The X11 answered all my needs. Let me put it to you like this I could have spent the same money I spent on the X11 on a Brompton. And it would be lacking. Not fast enough and no good on steep hills. And terrible on rough roads.

I only need 28 to 35mm tires. The X11 is incredibly comfortable for a performance folder. It' has great geometry. They thought about this bike carefully. So that when you get it you would want no more. People buy expensive bikes and then spend several thousand more changing things. The only thing I've changed on my X11 in 7 years is the seatpost to a litepro. And the pedals. The Ergon saddle is so comfortable.As are the ergon grips. The frame set. Groupset and brakes are second to none. The maintainance I've had to do on this bike in 7 years is minimal. Quality lasts.

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Old 03-29-24, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
It's the king of folders IMO. You can run up any bike you like. For an out of the box folder. There's never been anything greater in my book. And I've had 6 folders in my time.

The X11 answered all my needs. Let me put it to you like this I could have spent the same money I spent on the X11 on a Brompton. And it would be lacking. Not fast enough and no good on steep hills. And terrible on rough roads.

I only need 28 to 35mm tires. The X11 is incredibly comfortable for a performance folder. It' has great geometry. They thought about this bike carefully. So that when you get it you would want no more. People buy expensive bikes and then spend several thousand more changing things. The only thing I've changed on my X11 in 7 years is the seatpost to a litepro. And the pedals. The Ergon saddle is so comfortable.As are the ergon grips. The frame set. Groupset and brakes are second to none. The maintainance I've had to do on this bike in 7 years is minimal. Quality lasts.
LOL you think n=6 is a big enough sample size to support your statement.
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Old 03-29-24, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
LOL you think n=6 is a big enough sample size to support your statement.
Bro, why are you being so needlessly antagonistic?
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Old 03-29-24, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Bro, why are you being so needlessly antagonistic?
LOL you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.
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Old 03-29-24, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
No folding bike performs better than the X11...
That frame is a work of art...
Alot of people run their mouths on these threads...
The Tern verge X11 Is the absolute zenith of folding bikes...
That frame is a work of art...
Yeah, tell me about it. 😂😭

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Old 03-29-24, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Yeah, tell me about it. 😂😭
I will be sure of that. BTW hows ur attempt to build a bike half as good as the X11 going???
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Old 03-29-24, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
LOL you think n=6 is a big enough sample size to support your statement.
Well at least I've brought this half dead forum to life. Somebody had to do it.

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Old 03-29-24, 06:46 PM
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The X11s little brother enters the chat. Say hello to the X9. The 406 wheeled folder to rule that size. The BLUE STREAK..
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Old 03-29-24, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
The X11s little brother enters the chat. Say hello to the X9. The 406 wheeled folder to rule that size. The BLUE STREAK..
Well that does mean you can do a good comparo regarding the tire size, with same model tires!

Too much bling for me. Just me, not knocking it. A chosen style of one's bikes is a very intimate and personal life decision, and all should be free to select what pleases them. I'm a fan of the high-mount, straight, slightly sloped main tube on a folder, it just looks right to me, though it's very utilitarian, later in life I've come to appreciate Industrial Modern functional looks. My first good bike in my teens that I stripped, painted, and assembled from discarded parts, I painted sapphire metalflake with gold trim around the lugs, gold anodized pedals. My old road race bike, first good new bike in my late 20s, sporty, red, that one did it for me in style. That's when I became a serious biker, long distances. Always kept meticulously clean and maintained. But these days I prefer more low-key, not attracting attention, so monochrome slate blue frame. And very utilitarian, it's racked and panniered to the max, as a townie. Heavy.

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Old 03-30-24, 04:32 AM
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Just want to add a little detail. People who know what makes a fast bike know about riding geometry. The X11 with 37-451 tires has a bottom bracket height of 32cm. That is certainly not near of anywhere fast. In my opinion, it is not even outside the trashcan, sorry for that, too much "believe me bro i'm serious", and too little proof here...
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Old 03-30-24, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by splithub
Just want to add a little detail. People who know what makes a fast bike know about riding geometry. The X11 with 37-451 tires has a bottom bracket height of 32cm. That is certainly not near of anywhere fast. In my opinion, it is not even outside the trashcan, sorry for that, too much "believe me bro i'm serious", and too little proof here...

All Tern verges are FAST. Or the better way to put it is EFFICIENT enough to convert a riders Watts to superior forward movement. I've broken 30mph on my X11. And bare in mind im nearly 60 years old and weight 200lbs. A supremely fit young rider would go well over 30mph and have a higher average speed.

Every Tern verge I've owned has broken 25mph on the flat

X11=30.1 MPH
​​​​X18=27.3 MPH
P9=25.8 MPH

And the X30 which my friend owns was even faster But you have to be road bike ready with its aggressive position.

So you don't know what you're talking about here sorry to say. Obviously a 23lb X11. Is not going to be as fast as a 16lb Pinarello. That's obvious. But make no mistake about it. The X11 and it's family can haul ass. And the lighter younger and fitter you're. The faster you are gonna go.
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