The topic is "Help me decide on a folding commuter"
The Enviolo/NuVinci has a belt inside? Really, you believe that? Sure you do...

Its the same continuous variable ratio concept, its not a gearbox with several planetary gears like all other IGH, its the reason why this hub is pretty heavy and has a very low efficiency.

Late to the party. I have a 20" Dahon Boardwalk and a 16" Dahon Getaway V. Both steel, both about 32lbs.

Both are very easy to carry in a bag. The smaller 16" with its emphasis on small folding size is very easy.

An aluminum folder would be even lighter.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5871d2f15a.jpg
20" Dahon Boardwalk
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1b02fa7f4c.jpg
Boardwalk in bag at dentist office.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ffb4794a70.jpg
16" Getaway V with upgraded gearing for speed,
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ebe003486a.jpg
Getaway in Bag in chair for size comparison

On British lists, remarks are made that it is common to find a 3-speed SA IGH as the only salvageable component on decades-old, rusted-through bikes. Regarding lubrication, home mechanics may pour engine oil containing detergents into an IGH. That oil washes out grease from bearings over time, making it necessary to regrease them more often. The dedicated SA grease for IGH is cheap.

In a similar vein, this is a Chromoly steel FnHon Gust 16" that weighs about 22.5lbs (10.3kg).

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e0682ac0e7.jpg
Riding to the airport...

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3cb6d5e5a1.jpg
... Packing it at the departure gate...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...97dc82f5d0.jpg
Packed and ready to fly. Checked in luggage on the left, cabin carry-on on the right.

Rohloff is in a class by itself. Great seals, oil bath lube, it needs nothing but to be ridden from day one, and then periodic oil changes. My guess is Pinion will turn out to be equally reliable and carefree.

MOST hubs of all kinds come with too little grease from the factory, that's a known. Typical IGHs are no different. Barely enough grease in the outer bearings will allow them to function without damage, but water will leak past the voids between the balls. *In a wet climate*, those loose-ball or cage bearings need to be fully-packed with grease, it helps keep out water. And if ridden in the wet a lot, annual renewal of that. If sealed cartridge bearings, that's different, those are way better, with a seal on both sides so two rubber seals plus grease that water must get past. In both cases, bearing balls or cartridge bearings can be replaced cheap. But fixed cups, or the gear internals get a lot of rust pitting, and that's much more problematic, it may mean the end of the hub.

IGHs are a great invention. But proper car in the wet makes them last a lot longer. Without that, average folks may not run into failure with typical low mileage. Someone like me who commuted 42km round trip daily, proper maintenance is critical.

Regarding the local IGH specialist, from what I can see, the owner and chief mechanic is often cited with thanks on Sheldon Brown. Why would my own personal experience (and especially of not neglecting maintenance) outweigh a mechanic with decades of experience servicing IGHs (and who loves them) in a city with very wet winters? I have a pretty good BS detector, and this guy doesn't seem to move the needle. I rode IGHs in my teen years. Never in the rain. Not that many miles, that was before I got to be a serious biker. I don't think that usage bears critical info. I also think any single consumer experience does not compare with the knowledge of a good IGH mechanic with decades of experience.

You seem to have dodged my basic premise, that it doesn't make sense to buy an item with wear components with unknown history at near-new price with no warranty, that is now commonly available new with warranty with no shortage of supply. I'm a huge fan of reuse, but this isn't good cookware, and speaking of which, I just stumbled upon the holy grail of cookware, worth over $500, and scooped it up for $8 at my local Goodwill store.

It's heavy because of the large solid steel balls inside. The change in ratio is from the balls being driven from the inside rotating radius to the outside rotating radius and all points in between. It's brillantly simple, but heavy, and I've always worried about transmitting drive force across two very smooth, hardened steel surfaces, lubricated with oil, relying on friction. Most especially with "point contact" of round balls on the driving and driven cones. It's also why I've avoided the Shimano Alfine 11 with roller clutches, after folks have posted on here of slippage when standing climbing; Consensus is that the Alfine 11 is a hub for spinning, not hammering.

Its brillantly simple but doesn't fit for a folding for which weight is important and doesn't fir for a bicycle without e-assist were a high efficiency is required (its one of the reason why its mostly mounted on ebike, the second is that unlike the Alfine 11, even the second generation, it accept a high torque).

Many people who have a Brompton use it for daily commuting, all year long, including in the winter with rain and snow without any maintenance and the hub survive.

First (with a yellow/blue sticker on the hub) and second gen Rohloff ("Made in Germany" engraved on the hub, not underlined) are know to leak oil. Only the third generation ("Made in Germany" engraved and underlined) is leak proof.

Good to know.

I can't quite jog my memory... I read of one hub, reasonably well sealed, but taking it out into cold rain, the large air volume inside IGH would contract a bit, and it would suck water in at the seals. Can't remember specifically which hub. Something you wouldn't think would happen, but evidently so. Not a hub with a pull-chain or pushrod, those are automatically vented.

My old 1960s Sears Austrian 3 speed (hub by Steyr, pull-chain, I think a S/A copy), it had a fill cap for oil, I don't think the seals were great but as long as bike was stood up, the oil level inside was always lower than the seals. But due to that, the wheel bearings were a huge ring of tiny balls if I recall correctly, so harder to control tolerances and not great for heavy loads I think.

It'll be interesting to see what Brompton puts on their new 20"/406 trifold that the LBS (different one, not the IGH service) says is coming, he said they brought one by to his shop over a year ago. Could be anything; IGH, wide 1X, typical 2X. 349s will still need IGH, unless they go down to a 9 tooth high cog with all derailler gearing.

Regarding carrying up a flight of stairs - if the staircase is reasonably wide, this is how I usually carry my 20" folders...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...eecef72977.jpg

When I'm not taking a selfie, my right hand grabs the main tube right where the strap of the black bag is and helps to carry the bike. But as you can see, the bike can rest on my shoulder. My left hand is holding the handlebar. Depending upon the balance of the bike, the front wheel usually points a little up or down, and I may have to add a little upward or downward pressure on the bars so that the wheels don't catch on the steps.

(above) Note that there is padded backpack shoulder strap between the seat nose and his shoulder. I tried the above with just my bare seat, and there does appear to be a flat spot on the underside for that purpose, but it was still painful. Note though that my bike is about 2X the weight. But with a normal weight bike under 30 lbs, some padding, that should carry up stairs well.

Yeah, the padded backpack shoulder strap certainly helped while taking the selfie. But when not taking a selfie, my right hand is lifting the bike by the main tube and I can reduce the weight on my shoulder by whatever amount I'd like. If the bike is unladen, probably 90% of the weight is carried by my right hand and the shoulder/seat contact point is basically just a stabilizing point to help reduce any untoward movement/sway. It also helps when I have to negotiate a 90 degree turn while carrying the bike. If I have groceries in the pannier, then a little more weight is on my shoulder but for me it's usually just a short flight of stairs.

My grunt up my two flights of tight stairs with my panniered bifold (typically 55 lbs, more with groceries), is lifting by the outer seatstay just behind the seatpost with my aft hand (most of the weight, that's almost a balance point with my rear panniers aft of the rear axle), and my front hand is gripped around the fat lower handlepost to lift a little and steer the front wheel around the stair turns. No elevator in my old building. I've told people, no way I could carry up an e-bike, though the new Bike Friday All Day would work, but way more than I want to spend on a bike. Problem is, I use the rack and panniers almost every trip out, my room has a typical dorm fridge so I need to food shop frequently. Maybe I should backpack those and reduce my bike weight. Though it's better for the bike frame that the grocery weight is right over both axles and not on my back.

New Tern B8 for $499!!! Looks damn fine!!! :love: https://www.ternbicycles.com/us/bikes/471/link-b8

Cool bike. I guess the disc is a pro for some people. That and the hi-tensile forks must be why it's a chubby 30 lbs. Is there something else I'm not seeing? It looks better than the zizzos imho

It's about options. I prefer disc brakes for inclement weather, and muddy, dirty conditions. YMMV...

Well that's priced same as a Dahon Speed a couple years before the pandemic, and with better features, namely the discs. Crank looks cheap swaged with a steel chainwheel, so in replacing that I'd probably then just go 2X with a front derailleur to get the low I need. If it already had a quality crank, then I'd probably go wide 1X, 11-44, which would also require a new rear derailleur. But a good starting point I think.

Notably, the Origami Bull has same features and price, though has said sold out for quite a while. Also has rear rack and fenders like the Tern. Same cheap crank, but, of note, has a front derailleur bracket which makes it a LOT easier and $30 cheaper to convert to 2X. Bull has fatter tires, and stronger looking wheels with 36 hole rims, versus 28 on the Tern, if that's a thing for you.

EDIT: The B8 is HALF the price of the D8, and the only difference I can see is that the B8 has discs, which I think is better! The C8 is also $350 more than the B8. Go look on Tern's website. Oh, the D8 has Tern's fancy swinging top stem, on a one-piece T-top handlepost, I like. The B8 has no swinger, just a standard telescoping handlepost like most bifolds.

The Tern Link B8 also has a lower weight limit, which COULD be a dealbreaker for some. The Origami Bull, Zizzo Forte, AND the Dahon HIT (plus a few other Dahon models) all have a 300lb plus weight limit. For sheer weight carrying ability the Link B8 is slightly less desirable... SLIGHTLY.

Agreed. I'd put an improvised Deltech on any of them, it raises the weight limit to 300 lbs on Dahons that come with it. But being able to carry that weight without it... if there's any place that justifies extra weight for durability, it's the frame.