Bring on the clones, part 2.
 

I watched this video and felt it worthwhile take on issues related to Brompton clones. It also affirmed my own take, so I may be biased.

I recall this discussion during the "covid" years and at the time, I recall thinking Brompton had no case as a Patent hold water if it is a innovation; if any engineer come to the same logical solution, it is not Patentable (curved top tube is functional). Then there is the Copyright or US design patent that work around a shape like a Kartell chair for example; these are not very strong as the copy has to be exact to be enforceable which was not the case and it was clearly argued on different point in court without success.

Any person who is used to deal with patent would/should have seen that... but, Brompton may have know that at the time and still play the game to scare "cloners" and therefore maintain their sale advantage; cost wise, was it more profitable to sell X bikes between 2017 and 2023 and play for legal fees rather than loosing sales?

When I worked for a company based in Indiana, one of the marketing guy would ask to put "patent pending" on anything even if we knew it was not patentable just to get 1years buffer, discourage the competition while setting up/growing the market shares... Once market shares were up, it was very unlikely customer would swap supplier dur to the specificity of the business...

While the timing would have been right for this to be keeping the Dahon Curl D9 off the market (it's been shown online but vaporwear in terms of availability), the D9 showed significant innovation versus Brompton; Stiffer frame tube design I think, disc brakes, plus single sided fork with right front caliper mount to prevent axle pullout without thru axle (a feature shown on the Brom clone toward the end of the video). The Curl D3 and D4(?) were closer to the Brom design but still had a better frame I think and disc brakes.

Zizzo and others have brought bifold clones of Dahon to market, just as Dahon doubled their prices (foolish of them, the Business Sin of Premium Pricing, creates perfect opportunity for competitor to undercut them at less financial risk).

For me the Dahon Curl is not a clone, even if its a derivative of the Brompton, its really a new tri-fold design with major differences in its frame design, not just some other components mounted a frame almost identical to the one of the Brompton like almost all Chinese Brompton clones.

For the patent issue, the Patent Pending claims and suing a competitor for patent infringement, many companies do that for many products knowing very well that at the end there will be no patent issued for the claimed Patent Pending nor any patent infringement judgement. Its just a manner to slow down the introduction of a new competitor product.

Brompton now knows that it won't work again and took another approach to fight against competition, i.e. developing real new bikes, first the T-line which is a real new titanium Brompton and not a classic Brompton frame built with titanium tubes instead of steel tubes like the Chinese titanium clones, second the G-line which is not a classic Brompton slightly enlarged to fit 20" wheels like the for 20" Chinese clones.

Let's get you up to speed. At 2017 Eurobike Dahon displayed their new Curl tri-fold bike. Brompton filed for an injunction, claiming some sort of IP infringement. At the first hearing, Dahon showed the Curl to the court and pointed to the 9 new, unique EU patents the bike's design had been awarded. The court threw the case out and ordered Brompton to pay Dahon's legal costs.

Brompton's court shenanigans kept Chedech off the EU market during the COVID bike sales boom, preventing Chedech from building their brand during this once-in-a-generation opportunity and buying time to get the competing lightweight T-Line on the market.

There's an old saying in journalism, "For any headline that ends in a question mark, the answer is 'no'."

"Is this why there are so many Brompton clones?"

Following this for over a decade, I would inform the video originator that there are no more tri-fold 'clones' in the world post-court ruling than there were before. I have no idea if there are more available specifically in G7 markets, but folding bikes of the Andrew Ritchie-design pattern certainly existed in abundance in the Yuxi Circle.

"The best defense against copying is innovation.” Will Butler-Adams

And let us not forget the Brompton Electric. Or maybe some of the owners would like to forget that bike.

Anyway, as one would expect from a company located in one of the world's most expensive manufacturing locations, Brompton is going upmarket with their new offerings: $3300 G-Line, $4250 C-Line 12-speed Electric, $5500 T-Line. But is this just the next step toward conceding any pretense of serving the basic folding bike market?

I don't think Brompton has ever been 'basic',they've always been premium. Handmade with rebuildable frames and their own parts put them in a much different class than the hordes of internet folders out there.

That's a joke from a guy who manage Brompton as director since 2006 and CEO since 2008 and didn't innovate at all during about 15 years!

Sincere thank you, that's useful.

Now if you can pull a rabbit out of your hat and answer the question of why the Curl D9 is nowhere to be found for sale, you would be contributing more good knowledge. Maybe because the earlier Curl IGH didn't sell? There are a few rare folks on here that have the latter, but neither are currently for sale, even though Dahon USA still shows it on their homepage; (Note that it is a mirrored image (chainring appears to be on left side), possibly to disguise that it is the earlier IGH, and not the D9 which had been advertised in recent years, though price never specified; Easy clue is that the front caliper on the D9 was *forward* of the fork blades, not behind.):

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...92f30a2448.jpg

The first version of the Dahon Curl was presented at the Eurobike 2014, almost eleven years ago!
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0724348c1d.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...903e78fdf9.jpg
There were many different versions of the Curl, Dahon I think put a lot of money in this bike but for any reason the commercialization of the Curl has always been limited and chaotic and its availability has always been unpredictable the bike appearing in stock on some online shop and then disappearing/becoming unavailable.

I think that sales were always low but its due to the way Dahon commercialized the Curl, not to the quality of the bike.

The question remain open about why Dahon developed the Curl, put so much effort+money for its development, evolution and marketing, maintain the Curl on its catalog for so many years but limited so much its commercialization?

The Curl has been available here in Asia, and it’s sale on Amazon in Japan, the current price for the i4 is about $1k. I’ve been tempted to get one, but as I already have a Brompton, a Birdy, and two Moultons, I have resisted.
Amazon link

There are some websites selling the Curl I4 and eI4 (e-assist version of the Curl I4) in Europe too. I think that its a two years old model, not produced anymore by Dahon.

Some have still bikes in stock, its sold out on some others.

I wondered the same. Pricewise, I could see folks not biting if a similarly equipped Curl was 1/2 or over Brompton's price (my normal threshold for buying something other than an item of known quality); Besides a reputation for quality, my guess is Brom' gives better customer service than Dahon (not difficult, which says everything). However the D9 looked good to me; Easy to service derailleur gearing and disc brakes. I like the innovative relocation of the front caliper to prevent axle pullout without a thru-axle, though don't like the single sided fork if it limits replacement hub options (I don't know). But again, no clue what it would have sold for in the USA.

Speaking of price, the Dahon Launch D8 seemed to... well... not launch, and I think that was primarily due to... you guessed it... being overpriced.

Speaking of Dahon, it appears their USA headquarters and warehouse is moving, from Olney IL, a small town downstate that is almost all white, median income of USD$28k and per capita income of $16k with 17% below the poverty line (at least housing is probably cheap), to Carlsbad CA, more ethnically diverse, and about triple the mean and per capita incomes and 7% below the poverty line, and for those over age 25, 51% have a bachelor's degree or higher. Median house price about USD$1.3 million. A lot of tech businesses, including being known as the Titanium Valley due to golf industry including 4 club manufacturers. Oh and Carlsbad is right on the Pacific Ocean beachfront. Hmm, with the USA becoming more wealth-friendly by the minute, how much ya wanna bet that Dr. David Hon himself relocates back to the USA? That address would certainly suit him.

Saw that someone shared my video here so thought I'd reply. This was a genuine question since I honestly don't know! But I think companies are definitely getting more bold with their copies, see the aluminum Aceoffix T line copy for example, not sure how that will shake out for them.

I get your meaning, but I think the more bold it is, the less it is a copy. Perhaps homage is a better term.

That model you mention above I looked up, says 6069 aluminum which, under the same -T6 heat treatments, is about 40% stronger than typical 6061, and mentions bicycle frame tubes and rim sections as primary applications. Interesting, in that 7005 seemed to be supplanting 6061 as 7005 does not require post-weld heat treating, it was designed specifically for bike frames. I can't keep up with all the new stuff.

You work for Brompton in some capacity, don't you? Have I read that here?

Anyway, "handmade". How do you suppose other bikes are made?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8ed75274e7.jpg

"Their own parts". Other than add cost, what consumer benefit is accrued by screening the Brompton logo on common components?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...255b9094eb.jpg

The A-Line: a factory built, steel-framed bike with a three-speed Sturmey-Archer hub is 'premium'? Well, it's certainly priced like it is.

Here's the real first version which broke cover in 2011, looking a lot like the 2009 patent drawings:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...aad1e5e612.jpg

In 2015, Dahon showed what was to become the final production version of the Curl at Eurobike and Interbike, and weeks later displayed the very different 'true Curl' frame in Taiwan and Japan. Inscrutable.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4c85ad7a80.jpg


Yeah. Inscrutable.

Dahon is incorporated in the USA and is therefor an American Company. Their world headquarters and design offices

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...216dd32b03.png

were in California begining in ~1980. They inexplicably moved to the hometown (Olney) of their largest American dealer, he-who-must-not-be-named, about a decade ago. He-who-must-not-be-named retired and there's little reason to remain in such an out-of-the-way place.

Moving on from the unexplainable world of Dahon, let's talk about Chedech - here's the upcoming Chedech Tour model:

Over the last decade+ I've seen Andrew Ritchie-pattern tri-folders branded 3Sixty, Aceoffix, Afluen, Ahooga, Aleoca, Alps, B-Bike, Backer, Banian, Beiou, Benotto, Blackbird, Camp, Carston, Chedech, Cigna, Cranston, Cirus, Crosshead, Dahon, EasyTi, Element, Ethereal, Glamingo, Fova, Garcia, Grace Gallant, Groo, Harry Quinn, Hito, Iruka, Java, JCat, Kreuz, La Bici, Leggero, Liaoge, LitePro, Luigino, Mint, MIT, Mobot, Movebike, Neo, Oltre, Oyama, Panlova, Pico, Pikes, Pytitans, Rifle, Rolling, Royale, Ruhm, Sanye, Silverock, Southpoint, Sunrimoon, Thornton, Titiicaca, United, Viking and Week Eight. I'm certain there are more I haven't seen

Alright so I want a cheap folder to ride 1 mile to the commuter train, fold up to carry on the train, and ride 1 mile on the other end.

What should I get that isn't a $1500 Brompton? Located in USA.

The new chain tensionning is very interesting: it uses a Shimano derailleur with a specific cage with only one pulley and an additional separate chain tensionning arm. I note that they prefer this system to the previous Ltwoo derailleur.:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e5444c6155.jpg
The fact that the production is currently delayed as they are "still finalizing" the alloy components of the hinge is a little bit scaring as it mean that they obviously had problems with the previous model (the Tour is an evolution of the previous model).

I saw a few of their other videos. I think they're a bit traumatized by the Brompton episode. When they talked about the carrier block they said it was a "Dahon" style not "Brompton" 😂