Hey wpflem,

I notice that the Mercs and DT's you mentioned getting aren't on your website. Are you treating them as a test-run only for now?

Do you carry any other brand names in your shop that aren't listed on the website?

(Wished I lived near Santa Fe..... I'd love to check out the store)

Good questions. I had them up on the the site for awhile, but I just think that they are not going to be good for retail sales. We've had no serious inquiries on Mercs. Like Downtube, it is at present a low profit margin bike, and we have to realize some reasonable profit to keep our doors open. Interestingly, we have a similar issue with Bike Friday. It is just hard to retail them when the manufacture sells directly to the end buyer.

We don't have any other folders/separables beyond the ones above and those listed on our website.

We do, however, have a new website domain which I hope will help: http://www.getafolder.com

I don't know much about the Merc upgrade-ability, but since the Downtube features largely standard component sizes... This is a tough one. From what I've heard, Yan can't really give a higher profit margin to retailers without raising his own website prices. Make a higher MSRP, and there's more "pad room" for the merchants. However, if he does that (Merc too, I assume), then he sacrifices one of the largest selling points of his brand, that they're very affordably priced. The bikes ship 90% assembled, so other than stocking them, there's not much labor involved. Have you followed up on the idea of ordering frames-only from DT or Merc? If either manufacturer is willing to do that, it would mean several pluses for you:

-lower cost outlay for 10 frames, as opposed to 10 full bikes.
-Choose your own components, or take orders from your customers; kit out the bikes "on-demand" for knowledgable customers, and create low-midrange-highend versions for everyday folks who wouldn't know what components they want.
-Work deals in to accommodate parts you already have, or get discounts on. Instead of offering a Merc + Brooks Saddle, offer a Merc that comes WITH the saddle.

It would involve more work for assembly; but on low-margin bikes like this, dealers could offer a bike customized to the buyer, instead of buying the bike and then replacing parts after. If the manufacturer is agreeable to it, local stores could also do something in the way of co-branding; the Merc Santa Fe Special.

Think any of this is workable?

Yes, we have thought out that. We're still too small and currently have far below the needed volume of sales to be doing much in the way of custom work. In fact, I'm contracting out some of that work. One other thing I might add, we have to collect state sales tax on items sold at the store so we have had a number of customers who try out the products then understandably order delivery to avoid the tax. In the case of Bike Friday, this tax differential pretty well keeps our retail orders completely suppressed.

How about taking the Downtube stickers off our bikes and selling them as Sante Fe bikes? I have had several requests for rebranding our bikes....is that a good idea?

Thanks,
Yan

I'm surprised that you'd be willing to do that Yan.... wouldn't that hurt your brand-identity? I think co-branding might be a better solution, if it would put your (admittedly not-well-known) bikes into local shops, while allowing the shops to offer something which you don't. Customers could get a DT (All of this applies to Merc as well, as long as aftermarket upgrades are do-able with this brand) which would cost more than from the brand website, but specc'ed exactly how they want. The bike would also cost less than buying + upgrading a stock model, and not leave behind a dustbin of extra parts.

For these smaller, low-margin brands, I'd suggest offering this frame-only or frame-fork-seatpost only option solely to retailers, not direct to customers. This is a concession to the retailers; they'd have to work for the higher sales figure, but they'd be able to offer something that the customer wouldn't be able to buy direct. Since Merc, DT (and other similiar brands?) can't or won't offer higher profit margins on the stock models, it would at least be something. The idea also is to continue to support the LBS. Hopefully these sales would translate into yearly tune-ups, parts replacement (chain, tires/tubes, cogwheels, grease....).

wpflem, it's disappointing to hear about the Bike Friday mess. I'd love to have a store around here that featured rideable BF's for testing. It'd be nice to see you get business off of them, since you take the time and expense to stock and maintain them.

Do you find that your folding bike customers come back for repair and maintenance from you, or do they tend to buy them and then maintain them on their own?

The one thing that I got when purchasing my Dahon at the local LBS is one year free adjustments and tuneups. Most of the basics like derailleur and brake adjustments I can do myself however it is always good to have a backup if I totally muck something up. I have already been back there to purchase a few items and get a flat repaired (I got lazy) so this LBS sold me a bike for the same price I could have purchased it on line but already has a few hundred dollars in parts and extras that I bought just because I like them and their service. I also have recommended them to a few friends as well.
Kenal0

I don't see how it could hurt us. Our sales are strong, 14 bikes sold yesterday, hence we
are happy. However we would like to more people on ride cost effective folders. Allowing dealers to rebrand our bikes would help all parties:
1. Downtube would sell more bikes
2. Customers would get a great value at a local shop with a professional tuneup.
3. Bike shops can afford to charge a bit more since they have no competeition with the rebranded models.

Seems like a win-win-win situation.

Thanks,
Yan

Yan, I think that is a good idea. I'm going to run it by my managing partner. Maybe we could even customize the bikes a little or add something special beyond on the bikes branded as Santa Fe Bikes.

One thing States have to realize is that, they have to lower taxes to get more revenue. On the other hand, there are moves out there to 'voluntarily' disclose your internet purchases so they get more money. If that happens the brick and mortars would boom again. Hey, if I am charged the same, I would prefer trying it out rather than blind ordering.

The trick for the local shops is to build in value in their products and services. Rarely do I ever use mail order to buy my bikes even if I could save a few dollars. I want that local bike shop to be there when I need that odd part rather than waiting a week to get it via mail order only to find out it is the wrong part.

While I may pay sales tax I am not usually charged for shipping. Often this helps me to come out ahead on a bike. Quite often a bike shop can improve their sales by offering discounts on accessories at the time of sale. My LBS has a good discount policy when you buy a new bike and then they give a 10-20% on all accessories for the next 90 days. I then get a straight 10% for the next 6 months. They give a free tune-up each year for the first two years.

I might be able to save a few dollars to mail order but it isn't worth it. I get such great service I always try to buy from them if they have the model I want. I am not going to sweat them for $30 on a bike. They have changed a lot of tires for free and do a lot of other things to build value. They have a policy for example that they will fix any flats you get for free the first 90 days you have owned your bike. To give you an idea they even sent their repair truck to fix one for me when I had a flight about 10 miles from nowhere but I had my cell phone. They only way I would consider anyone else is if they don't have a particular bike I really want or if they get some lousy new owner or manager. The guys are awesome there! There is a reason why on a good month they can sell over $300,000 in bikes!

Well, if you're talking about Calhoun Cycle, they're the exception, not the norm. How many folding bike/recumbent dealers are there in the entire U.S.? If I lived where you live, I'd support them too. Wait a minute - I currently do.

I can see Bike Friday killing all their dealers because of the tax issue, esp. since Oregon has no sales tax. In CA, 8.75% sales tax is way more than shipping, so I'd rather pay shipping. However, they also have a 30 day return policy in case you don't want the bike (even the custom made bikes, I believe). That makes up for a lot of the buying blind/mail order issues. Selling Bike Fridays in store only makes sense to me if your store is in another country.

Calhoun's service isn't bad but it isn't up to the level of the other bike store I was talking about, Penn Cycle (in my area). They do have a good selection of folders and recumbents but they aren't super close for me but they aren't bad either. They do have a great area to test ride a bike though.

back to the Mercs
 

So everyone's experience with the Merc is positive? That is interesting since the Buyer's Guide from A to B Magazine slammed them. WPFLEM ... is everything still working well with the Merc? Below is the link to the guide.

http://www.atob.org.uk/Buyers'_Guide.html

Here is the relevant text.


Merc *
£499
The Merc is an attractive Chinese pirated clone of the Brompton, correct in most respects, and apparently upgraded from the classic British bike, thanks to a light alloy frame. The reality is a bike that weighs 13.2kg (heavier than the steel Brompton!), on which almost nothing works properly - the saddle slips down, the brakes barely function, the front carrier block is a bit dodgy, and the cables get in a tangle when you fold it up. If offered one at the ludicrous price of £499, just say no. We should add that the Merc seems to be attracting a vociferous following: ' just as good as a Brompton...', 'a Brompton rider stopped and offered me money for it...', etc, etc. We can only say that these dynamic qualities were not immediately obvious in the bike we tested. If it really has improved, we may well return. Watch this space!
Dysfunctional pirate copy

Yes, I'm very much aware of ATOB's review and that's why I'm holding back cautiously until there is more experience with the Merc. I would not have ordered one except for the positive reviews herein.

My Merc has been very good so far. "A to B" heavily favors Brompton. I don't want to re-hash an old issue but the bike that A to B reviewed seemed to have nothing in common with mine. Conveniently A to B glosses over the brakes issues on all Bromptons but in their issue that just came out a reader complained like I repeatedly have about how lame the Brompton brakes are. The Merc6 has excellent brakes! I just don't get A to B's review unless the Merc was a total piece of junk a few years ago.

All I can say is my Merc shifted better than my Brompton, it had better brakes, it came standard with a rack and luggage and...and...and...many more pluses for less money than a Brompton. I love the fact it has a twist grip shifter rather than that cheesy move the little lever shifter. It has a Sturmey Archer hub. It has kevlar belted tires. Honestly the only cheesy part I've seen is the front headlight. It is easily replaced with an LED light which is better for me than a halogen one.

Somehow A to B seems to gloss over the Brompton issues quite conveniently but then somehow they seem to see them in the Merc. Things that make you go hmmm.... The Merc6 does almost everything better than a comparable Brompton for significantly less money.

I have the three gear Merc and I agree except that the brakes on mine could not be described as excellent. I've done almost four hundred miles on mine and it's great. I don't use the dynamo and lighting system since I already had bright LED lights and just clipped them on, but it works ok, and you are right about the gear change - much neater.

That review in a to b has been changed since I emailed the writer. I think he is misrepresenting the bike. He even distorted something I mentioned and added it to the review. He now says, "We should add that the Merc seems to be attracting a vociferous following: ' just as good as a Brompton...', 'a Brompton rider stopped and offered me money for it...', etc, etc.' That comes out of the fact that I mentioned I'd met a Brompton rider and swapped bikes together for a part of our journey and that he'd commented very favourably on it, especially the value for money.

The review is worthless, because he is prepared to fictionalise and entirely distort comments made to him about the bike to suit his purpose of diminishing opposition to his review. He has connections with and a great fondness for the British made Brompton and resents that others have copied it - he implied exactly that to me.

I was wondering whether A to B was partial to Brompmtons in general.

On another note, Merc's website states that they are getting a bunch of 8 speed internal hubs and will be offering them at an upgrade.

Personally, I have been waiting for the 8 speed offer from Brompton. I even e-mailed SF Bikes a while back asking whether it was an option.

-G

EvilV, I'd say not to write them off yet. I've only ridden one Brompton and never a Merc, so can't comment on quality issues myself. I think it's encouraging that they're willing to pay attention to what other people are saying. To a certain exent, they're correct. Mercs are still little-known, and when there are a few people on an internet forum making noise about the review being unfair, well, that makes them seem vociferous. Remember the "AtoB = Brompton Cronies" thread? A couple of things to keep in mind:

-The review dates to at least last Summer, possibly earlier. Is the review for the Merc6, which is the model that's attracted some praise in this forum? It may very well be a spot-on review, for the model which was tested at the time. If so, why should they retract what they said?

-We're not 'real people' to them, we're just names on a forum or in an email correspondence. For all they know, we're employees of Merc and looking to wipe a bad review off their website. Why should they trust our say-so?

-"If it really has improved, we may well return. Watch this space!". This is a good sign. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it appears that they're willing to be convinced.


I'd say again.... instead of complaining about their review, try one of two things:

1. Try getting a more recent, close-to-stock Merc into their hands. You're in the UK and own one, so are ideally suited to do this; or at least more so than wpflem or wav. Failing that, see about badgering Merc into loaning one to them for review.

2. Submit a "second opinion" review to them. If it's well written, and addresses the relative strengths of Merc vs. Brompton, they might publish it. Many of their test-ride reviews seem to be written by enthusiastic volunteers rather than paid staff members, am I incorrect about this?

Well, if you're talking about Calhoun Cycle, they're the exception, not the norm. How many folding bike/recumbent dealers are there in the entire U.S.? -spambait11

In my own experience, there are few actual "specialty" folding bike shops beyond Santa Fe and Folding Bikes West-where I purchased my Brompton in it's Southern California branch store. My Local Bike Shop owner remarked to be how difficult it is to get people interested in folders-they rather get something more familiar to them like a mountain bike or something similiar.

As for the Merc/Brompton debate, I would not purchase a Merc. I am a strong believer in manufactoring and designing things within the first world and keeping business in the first world, not exploiting the workers in the third world if possible. And the other thing about the Brompton is it's steel frame and more selection of models. I pay more attention to the "heart" of the bike than some component or streamer type accessory in directing my money to. I simply replace the offending part to something better as it wears out. And the Brompton has about 30 years of doing business. The Merc is too new to give it a go for me. I keep my bikes-not speculate on them.

Bike Fridays are wonderful bikes. I have seen them and are impressed by their handling capabilities. But they are more for serious traveling and are not as flexible or easy quicker fold into a package that stays together in a single unit as a commuter style one. I do not fall into the extreme range of size (short or tall) so a Bike Friday is not as a critical a purchase as another makes or brands has been a better choice for me.

Woohoo! This would be cool if it happens. I'd also like to hear updates if frame-only sets start getting sold; I'd likely buy my second bike this way, either directly from Yan or from a retailer like SFBikes.

wpflem, how does the Customs overcharge affect your Merc prices? Are they still $999?

I will have to search back and find those threads on the Merc and its comparisons to the Brompton. But as more evidence on Merc's reliability appears, given their competitive price, greater choice of gears--assuming that they do indeed release a Sturmey Archer 8 upgrade--and performance, then the decision appears to be straight forward.

And I can even help those poor workers in developing countries by purchasing their product.

Erika and I will be spending a week in New Mexico later in the year. Four days in Albuquerque (did I spell it correctly?) and three days in Sante Fe. Looks like we will have to stop by your store WPFLEM.

Take care everyone.

Isn't that what I said? OK so I added recumbent...


To each, his/her own.

But I think you may want to re-adjust your logic: Brompton has stayed in business 30 years because people have bought from them. If you are of the "too new to give it a go for me" crowd, then how can any business, even if it's "first world," survive? Whom, then, can they depend upon to stay in business? Besides, I am pretty certain your Dahon Boardwalk was not made in the "first world." (Sorry, but I personally hate that prejudiced Ameri/Euro-centric classist geo-political term. What the hell does it mean, anyway?)


Depends what you're willng to put up with.

Nowadays, after personally experiencing and owning a Birdy, Brompton, Dahon, and Bike Friday, I've pretty much settled on Bike Friday because I like the ride quality the best. I used to rate folding ability above ride quality, but not anymore. And others do what best suits them.

If you are of the "too new to give it a go for me" crowd, then how can any business, even if it's "first world," survive? Whom, then, can they depend upon to stay in business? Besides, I am pretty certain your Dahon Boardwalk was not made in the "first world." (Sorry, but I personally hate that prejudiced Ameri/Euro-centric classist geo-political term. What the hell does it mean, anyway?) -spambait11

I was thinking on more of a vote with my pocketbook or credit card when I buy anything now, not just bikes. The "vote of confidence" is just an tiny assurance that people stay employed here not mainly somewhere else. In my "real" life, I have to counsel people who are mostly permamently laid off, underemployed, or cannot start their adult life because of sending the jobs they and their parents done overseas. My Dahon Boardwalk was made in China, but at the time I purchased it, I did not know of Bike Friday or Brompton as I was very green with folding bike matters. Dahon still has a warehouse just about 15 miles from my house that employes people in the Duarte/San Gabriel Valley (a suburb of Los Angeles). My bike was designed and shipped from there-though it was acually made in China like most things now.

As for finances, most of my jobs is another indicator of how the economy is really going-underpaid, sometimes volunteering, and long, unproductive hours of eternal sameness. So I cannot afford to drop money on bikes that are not suitable for my needs and the enviroment that I ride in. So Mercs are out. My bikes were not purchased to be speculated in for possible resale. They are to be on stand-by emergency use (2 transit strikes over the last few years here), relativity cost free, dependable, and a little experimental-anything more is for the high perfomance crowd which is not most people I live or work with. And to prove my point, in truth I would not have purchased any folder if it was not for the high crime rate in my region. I was perfectly happy with my vintage almost 40 year old imported British 3 speed I bought used. And my personal self-discovery would not happened without owning the 2 folders I have now.

But that does not exclude the high performance crowd from keeping the bike companies afloat. Some of the things that they value (components and accessories) usually trickles down to us poor folk eventually.

I hear you, though poor is relative when you live in the U.S.

Besides, my progression towards settling on a folding bike - weighing all pros and cons I cared about - was over a span of 8 years. I don't consider myself "wealthy" (again relative) by most means, but I'm not afraid to spring for quality either. And I don't mind reading as many reviews of the Merc as people want to make, because over time, the pros and cons become more concrete, like what is happening in the Swift and Downtube threads. All informative and entertaining, to say the least.