Donkey Hodie

Again, you are jumping to conclusions based on your assumptions and what little you know about this situation based on this thread. Not once have I implied or eluded to any faults of the integrity of HPM. When I asked you a question in my previous post(which you ignored), it was not about my dealings with HPM, but a question in general about consumer's and their interactions with other companies. I was asking you that question because I was honestly curious if you felt that way.

Do you by any chance work for HPM? Or are you in any way affiliated with HPM? I am just curious, you sound awfully defensive for just a bystander.

Again you are making conclusions based on information that you do not have. I am not calling out the integrity of anyone. Simply stating that I plan on continuing documenting my swift experience in this thread that I started almost two months ago.

If you had not noticed....I agreed with you about taking the bike and trying to sell it myself. What are you trying to say here? What are you implying that I am saying?

Why are you trying to warn me? I have not implied anything negative about HPM. The negativity did not start until you posted your piece of advice. Hypothetically speaking, IF something happened negatively on HPMs part, would it be bad to make a report or review on it in a public bicycle forum? To me it sounds like you work for HPM.


OK, I might have sounded harsh in my last post, but I am undergoing a bit of stress at the moment, mainly due to financial problems. This is the reason why I have to ask for a refund or sell my bike. I am having to sell other possessions I own as well. I really wish I was not going through this, but I am and I have to just deal with my losses. I really do not want to have to sell the bike or get a refund. I have wanted it for over a year. I feel awful about this.

I agree with you for most of everything you say....but the truth is, you do not know the whole story(yet). I most likely will give up on this and not report further. You do not know the full story because I feel that I should not report on anything at this point mostly because of the reasons you have stated in your posts.

Donkey Hodie

Makeinu: Your previous post was well put. I could not have said it better myself.

bookishboy

Completely ridiculous? I think that my replies have been fairly measured, and that my *suggestions* and *opinions* have been offered as exactly those..... *suggestions*, and *opinions*. I don't tell people what they should and shouldn't write, I don't have a vested interest in the outcome of Donkey Hodie's transaction, and I don't have the power to censor anyone in this community.

Donkey Hodie will either take my suggestions under consideration, or not, and he'll certainly continue to post has he sees fit. When I said "It may not be appropriate to report on your refund process", I meant it. Offering up a suggestion that something "may not be appropriate" isn't telling them what to do, it isn't censoring them.

If I thought that he was owed a refund, or that they breached contract, I wouldn't call them, but I'd post my opinion on the matter here. I'd also refrain from doing business with them. Since there is no question of any breach of contract on their part, how does this apply? Similarly, if Donkey Hodie (or another forum member) posted a complaint about not receiving a refund that I didn't think was warranted, I wouldn't go about contacting them personally via email or PM; I'd post my opinion on the matter in the thread where it was discussed. With respect, I'm also not sure that your analogy is accurate. If Donkey Hodie doesn't get a refund back on the bike, it isn't this which is negatively affecting him so much as his personal finances situation; this was the reason he wanted out of the contract (or wanted to sell the bike to a 3rd party) to begin with. To turn the matter back over to you, in your opinion is it fair that his opinion (and through it, perhaps our opinion) be based on whether or not he was able to get a refund back for a bike that in the end he couldn't afford? Keep in mind that this isn't Best Buy we're talking about, where the bike simply has to be re-stocked. This was a custom, hand-built bicycle, which if he doesn't buy, they may or may not be able to sell to another customer, except at a discount.

First off, I never told him what he shouldn't say. I made a suggestion to him, knowing full well that he's free to ignore the suggestion. Second, who's telling who what to do now?
I'm sorry, this sentence lost me, but I think I get the gist... I think I am doing a favor, both to a small business, and to the members of this forum, when I ask someone to stop and consider how much information to give; whether they receive a refund or not, and whether that has any bearing on the product quality or the ability of the company to meet contractual obligations.

Once again, if you go back and read, you may find that my posted suggestions and opinions were less forcibly worded than has been suggested here.

bookishboy

Ok, here's your question again, and my answer:
I wouldn't want to know both side's opinions if they went contrary to the facts, or were based on something other than the salient facts. For example, if you were not able to get a refund for the bike but did receive it, and it was up to the standards of quality and componentry that you had contracted for, your opinion of the transaction may still be quite poor. That doesn't mean that it has any weight, if it's based on something other than the quality of the product, and the manner (timeliness, condition) in which it was delivered. So, no, not "no matter what the situation". I would be very interested in your opinion if you were delivered a bike which somehow failed to live up to what HPM had warranteed.

No, you haven't eluded to any faults on their part. Here is the post that I first responded to, however:

Reading your post, I see several things. First (maybe it was just not worded to say exactly what you meant), it's not exactly true that you never had the chance to receive it in the mail. You did. The bike was being built and getting ready for the paint job. Your sudden change in finances did not alter the fact that the bike was coming along and would have been sent to you, as ordered. Second, this reads to me as "I am withholding my final judgment until I have received a refund, even though I'm technically not entitled to one; If I haven't, I'll let you all know." They didn't contract with you that "If we build the bike and you change your mind, no problem you can have your money back." I don't think it's fair to withhold your opinion pending the outcome of something which is outside the bounds of the contract. What's fair is to judge them on the quality of what you contracted them to build. How well-made is the bike? Was it made to your specifications? How does it ride? This is another reason why I suggested that you take delivery of the bike, and then sell it used. Even if you lose money on the deal, this isn't the fault of HPM, and this way they get judged -fairly- on what they promised to deliver. As it is, what happens if someone else buys the bike from them, and the purchase is made on a fraudulent credit card or a bounced check? Should they absorb the cost of the bike, or should they still keep your money? Bringing a third party into this complicates things, and increases the chances that they could either get stiffed for money or receive a blistering review from you, the original customer, when they keep your money to cover their fraud losses. It's more straightforward all around if you purchase the bike you ordered, and sell it yourself. Everyone (HPM, you, the new buyer) gets rated on their own merits.

Attacking the person, rather than the argument? My affiliations have been mentioned in here before, but here are the answers: No, I don't work for them. No, I have no business affiliations with them. Yes, I am affiliated with them because I own an older steel Swift. I bought it used from a previous owner, not directly from either HPM or Swiftfolder.com. I'm impressed with the design and with Peter's commitment to customer service, even after-market, but since you ordered from Oregon I don't think Peter was involved. I once requested an estimate for a Phaser from HPM, but couldn't afford it at the time so didn't go further than that.
I don't consider myself to be a bystander. I'm a member of this community, a participant in this forum and in this particular thread, and an owner of the bike in question.
Defensive? Of what, myself? I think I've been proactive in standing up for an apparently unpopular opinion. Defensive of HPM? In all of this, I've only asked that they be judged by the quality of their product, and their ability to provide the product that their customers order. If you find either of these to be lacking, I won't get in your way of saying so. I don't think it's fair to them, or to potential customers, for you to give a running account of how well they allow customers to break contract, however. Also, if I were defensive of them, I'd probably be stressing the idea that your bike would *clearly* be in demand for much much more than you've already paid for it, rather than suggesting that you may incur a loss when selling it.

It wasn't a warning, it was a suggestion. A warning implies that there would be negative consequences for you if you didn't comply; you're free to consider my suggestions or ignore them completely, we're all on a level playing field here. I actually think that the negativity started slightly *after* my piece of advice, but again..... your opinion, my opinion. "IF something happened negatively on HPM's part...." No, it wouldn't be bad to report on it, but let me be clear here: If you receive a bike which is of poor quality, that would be something bad on their part. If you receive the bike you can't afford, rather than a refund, that's not something bad on their part; that's them fulfilling your contract.


I'm sorry, I was still reading the part where I was jumping to conclusions based on information that I don't have. Could you repeat that? -poke, poke-



No worries, stress happens. In this thread though, I've tried to avoid hyperbole and type things as I actually meant them. When I say something like "you might not want to" or "perhaps you should", that's pretty much what I mean; "might"...."perhaps".... I'm offering suggestions, not saying "you'd better....."

makeinu

Ok. You're right. You were just making a suggestion and, although I wholeheartedly disagree with your suggestion, I probably overreacted. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive because of an incident a few months ago where a gang of forum members verbally attacked me for using a choice of words which had a slightly negative connotation when all I was doing was reporting my experiences.

I think my analogy is entirely accurate because, as I already mentioned, if Donkey Hodie posts a complaint that HPM wouldn't issue him a refund as per their policy and HPM is negatively affected then it isn't Donkey Hodie's complaint that is negatively affecting them, but HPM's own policy. The fact of the matter is that such a policy is not good for customers and Donkey Hodie's troubles are a perfect reminder of the kind of hardship such a policy can cause for customers. I understand why it may be difficult or even impossible for HPM to not have such a policy, but that doesn't change the fact that a no refund policy is worse for the customer than a full refund policy. It would, therefore, be wise for any prudent customer to weigh the disadvantage of such a policy against the various advantages of ordering from HPM; By posting his experiences Donkey Hodie is only reminding potential customers to be prudent and use said wisdom.

I also don't see how fairness has anything to do with it. The fact of the matter is that Donkey Hodie has an experience and along with that experience he has opinions. He has opinions on the shipping method used, opinions on HPMs policies, and opinions on their customer service. That his opinions are what they are is simply a matter of fact and fairness has nothing to do with it.

Now, keep in mind that not all opinions are relevant to questions of integrity and quality. In fact, I'd say that very few of Donkey Hodie's opinions are relevant to integrity and quality. However, that doesn't mean they are any less relevant to the customer. Poor customer service does not necessarily imply dishonesty, lack of integrity, or poor product. However, a customer might decide that a custom machine from HPM isn't worth the risk and trouble of not being able to obtain a refund. WIth this in mind a customer might decide to buy a Dahon from the LBS instead. That's fine. People shop at stores like Bestbuy and Walmart for a reason: a liberal return policy adds value to the customer...value which a machine from HPM lacks. Of course, I am assuming that HPM follows their own policies. Many companies don't. Perhaps HPM would have issued Donkey Hodie a refund if he didn't find a potential buyer, in which case we are dealing with an entirely different situation (a company which is very accommodating, but in some ways unpredictable).

Fair enough.

Yes, whether or not HPM issues a refund has absolutely nothing to do with product quality or integrity in contractual obligations, but so what? Donkey Hodie never said or implied that the refund issue has anything to do with quality or integrity. Prices don't have anything to do with quality or integrity either, but we still discuss them in this forum extensively. There are many things which are desirable from a customer's perspective and the ability to receive a refund is one of them. In fact, the factors relevant to making a purchase depend on what is important to the customer. That's why some people buy Walmart bikes while other people buy Bike Fridays. That's also why all information on the topic of folding bikes which isn't materially false is an asset to the forum, as only each individual customer can decide for himself which factors are relevant and which aren't (such as product quality, integrity, price, ability to obtain a refund, location of manufacture, etc).

That's all fine and dandy, but are those the rules that everyone is playing by? One thing you can say for sure is that Donkey Hodie needs to do what's good for Donkey Hodie and HPM needs to do what's good for HPM. Avoiding complications to guarantee that everyone gets rated on their own merits might be a nice rule to have, but it sure isn't going to trump rule #1.

That's just your opinion. Some people think there is more to business transactions than just fulfilling contracts.

Donkey Hodie

I agree with this whole heartedly, and never once did I imply that this was ever a problem.

bookishboy: Thank you for your opinions and points of view. They are definitely considered.

Everything is going smoothly at this point, and I am now waiting to receive a check with my refund in the mail. My swift was sold to another customer that was on their waiting list. I will continue to report on this later.

LuckyLyndy

Whew, skip all that last page of this thread.
I went out to Eugene this past week, as I said. El Donko's bike was not sold as of last Friday when I left for Eugene, but it WAS sold when the shop let me in on Monday morning. It was a beauty, and I was allowed to take it for a short spin along the nearby bike path. The road feel of the steel Swift is excellent, and the quality of the welds by Mac were well above average. HPM, also referred to as CAT, is a wonderful example of people giving back to the local community as well as offering an excellent product. It was one of the highlights of my trip out to Eugene.
Lyndon
Salt Lake City

Donkey Hodie

I still plan to get one in the future....once I'm back on my feet again. I just hope HPM is willing to sell me one again. I still want to point out that I had no problem with accepting the bike instead of the refund, and then selling it on ebay myself. HPM giving me a refund saves me the hassle. I highly recommend dealing with companies like HPM who make a point of giving back to the community.

Unfortunately my situation was a matter of "***** happens". Just a case of real bad timing. HPM has been real good about giving me a refund on the bike, and I should be expecting it in the mail this week.

makeinu

You didn't happen to ride the "Tri-Hauler" did you? Looks like it might be a good practical excuse to get a bent: I could carry just about anything I would ever need to carry and I could pedicab to pay for it.

The only thing that has me concerned is that the frontwheel drive might not be suitable for hauling 500+ pounds.