Sammyboy

So, my Raleigh 20 is gradually dissolving, in not terribly surprising ways. The BB is getting a bit tired, and a spoke let go in the rear wheel last week (30 year old wheels on bikes that don't get lots of love tend to do that). I'm hardly ever having to fold it, so I'm wondering about using a different bike for the duties it currently does, and really doing it up. The pic at the bottom is the bike as it stands. I'm thinking wheels, brakes, gears, cranks and BB at minimum, and I'd like not to spend more than £300. Here are my thoughts:

Frame - powder coat black. The paint is a bit iffy, and I rather like the idea of a matt black and red rat-rod look. Does anyone know how much powdercoating costs in the UK?

BB - this is the tricky one. Leaving the threads standard means definitely buying Phil Wood cups, and probably very soon a BB as well, the Shimano ones being increasingly hard to find. I also have had no luck finding a plastic BB. If I get the shell re-threaded to 24 tpi, should I also get it faced down to standard width? I need to find out how much this would cost.

Cranks - free. My bike dealings mean that there's always a set of cranks laying around. I don't think 170's are going to cause me any great difficulty.

Wheels - ideal woud be Shimano Nexus 8. I can pick one of those up for £80 or so, but then I'd also need to spring for fitting kit, shifter etc. I'm going to start watching everything on eBay with a Nexus 7 or 8, in hopes that I can pick up a complete bike for more like £50 or 60, strip it out, and sell the rest of the bike to mitigate. I'd then build it up into 406 rims. Ideally, I'd like something like the Velocity Deep V, but in 406, and in red, but I've not found anything yet. Red anodised BMX rims are easy to get, but I'm wondering how well they'd work with something like Stelvios? Anyone know?

Seat - I can pick up a 400 mm alloy post for about £15, and I'd like to top that off with a sprung Brooks

Brakes - SJS cycles have a long reach dual pivot set which, in combination with Kool Stop Salmons and alloy rims, ought to improve the braking so much that I'll have to watch for going over the bars!



Rack - I hate Pletscher racks. I sometimes do hang stuff on the side of this, and I'm not keen on having my panniers eaten by my wheels. Anyone know where to get a good 20" rack, or how to modify one?

Bars/Stem - I'm tempted to stay with the standard bars/stem, but then again, I could do with a little more rise (I'm a big chap). Talk to me about the stem options?

Time-Bandit

I'm currently doing the Raleigh 20 full-out upgrade thing. I actually never rode on a Raleigh 20. The moment I bought my Raleigh 20, I started dismantling it. I got rid of the tires and wheels (kept the SA Hub though, just in case).

The R20 originally came with 406mm wheels, I decided to go out and buy some 451mm wheels (obviously, a bit taller, not by that much, but you can see a small difference). There is plenty of clearance under the R20 frame for them. So no need for any long-reach calipers, I can use regular brake calipers. So the wheels I got were laced with Shimano Deore XT hubs, front and rear. I had to cold set the rear spacing to 135mm. I put in a 9-speed Shimano HG cog. My wheels are fully laced and functional. After the re-spacing I noticed that the chainstay was rubbing with the chain and didn't have enough clearance, so I had to weld a space on the wheel to give it the needed clearance.

For the front fork, after a lot of thought, I decided to not use it. I installed a Tange Levine (Old School) headset that I had lying around and quickly went to work on finding a suitable fork. I bought a suspension fork (A Suntour M2000) from the internet. It measured 8.25" and was a few millimeters short of working out for me. I thought of cutting the headtube a few millimeters, but voted against it. Instead, I found an old fork I had lying around on a 60 CM Peugeot frame that fit PERFECTLY with that headset. I am in the process of shortening the fork, since it is a fork designed for 27" tires. It also has the exact same rake as the original Raleigh 20 fork. I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

For the seat post, I believe 28.9mm mountain bike seatposts will fit. I'm still thinking of using the original one, not sure if it'll be long enough.

As for the bottom bracket. I completely removed everything from it, cups, spindle, etc... I put the components in a bag and am debating on what to do now. I think the best route for me is the UN72 + Phil Wood retaining rings. I don't want to do anything drastic such as re-threading. I just picked up a UN72 on eBay for ~$32 shipping included. All I need now are those Phil Wood retaining rings. They are impossible to find in Canada. Will have to e-mail the company and see what they say. I need the bottom bracket issue resolved, get my forks shortened, add some braze-ons + cable routes and then paint the thing. I can predict that the whole project for me will be finished by next spring for sure.

So far, I must have spent close to $400 CDN (about $398 US or so) and am not even close to being finished!!! But at the end, I'm sure I'll have something that is unique.

Good luck, and don't hesitate to post up any questions you might have! It's good to exchange information with people going through the same issues.

Sammyboy

Actually, 20's came with 451's to begin with. Sounds like a cool project, I've not seen many derailleur geared 20 upgrades.

Time-Bandit

R20s in North America came with 406mm, in the UK they came with 451's... A lot of the R20 projects I've seen use geared hubs, and at first was considering a geared hub, BUT, in order to keep costs lower (decent geared hubs can cost a lot), I decided on a derailleur system with the added benefit that if it breaks down, I can fix it/replace it easily anywhere I am.

Sammyboy

True, that's a major benefit. Since mine gets ridden pretty much exclusively to the station, and then across London at the other end, I'm less concerned about that - I'm not likely to start touring on my 20! I'd be tempted to build with 451s too, if I could find decent rims at sensible prices here.

Sammyboy

Just found a source for red Velocity Aeroheat rims at £10 a pop. Things are looking up.....

Time-Bandit

Actually, it was the other way around for me. I had a hard time finding 406 rims, and ended up going with 451s. I even bought a set of Schwalbe Marathon Slicks in 406mm sizing which I will be putting up for grabs soon on eBay.

I plan on bringing my R20 with me to Cuba when I go there yearly, and want to be totally self reliant if I ever break down, for that 406 would have been a better choice for rims, because tires are probably easier to find.

Will you be documenting your build-up? I think I should take some pictures when I'm still in the BEFORE stage, just for documentation purposes.

Sammyboy

But 406 is the standard BMX size - should be incredibly easy to find. I probably will document, yes.

Time-Bandit

You would think so, but not in a narrow size. The big fat rims, sure no problem, but if you decide to put thinner racing tires, it's not easy. I tried EVERYWHERE in Montreal, and couldn't find anything until I lucked out on 451mm rims, laced to Shimano Deore XT hubs with Primo Comet tires.

LittlePixel

Care to say where this source is? Sounds excellent!

Sammyboy

It is here:

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=12202

It's a special offer, so get in there now - 1/2 price. So, talk to me about building wheels on these rims. Are tyres really going to be a problem? What about spoke count? They're 48 hole, but I can build with less spokes....right?

LittlePixel

Shouldn't be more than about £100 to get it coated. Somewhere that routinely does cycles or motorcycle parts is preferable as they'll have more experience and less likely to shotblast your steel to drinks-can thinness. I don't have a name for you - i got mine repainted by the awesome Dave Yates but this was a paint deal and not matt. It cost about £120 but was excellent and included v-brake brazeons, a custom colour mix, shipping, decals and lots of clear lacquer.

Probably a good idea - no idea on costs - I think this is a 'nice thing if you have your own workshop or a friendly local machine shop' thing but not something most local bike shops would want to get behind.

When I first ran my twenty with a fixed suicide hub - the classicly dodgy glued sprocket - it was a standard BMX rear wheelset with a 1 3/4" rim, to which fitting a Continental Grand Prix was not exactly perfect. It sort of worked but I'd say with a skinny like a Stelvio or Grand Prix you really need to be looking at 1" or 1 1/4"

They look nice - an alternative is to fabricate extenders or (for the rear) move the bridge down the 22mm it needs to go to fit the 406 wheels. Do that, and you could choose any nice roadie caliper you can which would look mondo elegant compared to long reach calipers. Just my thought. Stevegor on this forum has a lovely fix for front forks whereby you insert a wee bit of tube under the crown with 4 holes drilled - you feed the original bolt through the top two to keep it in position and then essentially have a extension that decends to the required length wherein you bolt a smaller neater caliper that fits 'just so'. Search out some close ups on his Flickr pages if that doesn't make sense...

https://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne...9347201&size=l


How come? I like their shape and non 'weldedtogetherness'

Any 1" quill will fit though options are limited. My 1st iteration had an adjustable angle Kalloy stem which was really helpful to have when dialling in a good riding setup. Later on, I substituted for a lighter 45° KF riser. You can get quill-to-ahead adapters that give you access to a larger range of stems, but the usual problem with Twentys is getting the bars high enough. A lot of people have gone the Ahead route with custom spacers (look up the 'Tarik' device' or any of Jur's excellent posts on the matter) but I'm a short arse (5'5") and don't ride in the 'district nurse' upright style, so have never really needed to worry too much about bar height.


Huw

Sammyboy

I hate Pletscher racks for their Don'tKeepthePanniersOutoftheWheelness. They need something aft of the main strut to do that. They're fine for my racktop case, but not good for the fabric briefcase pannier I carry my raingear in.

I'm thinking that, tyre-wise, perhaps Big Apples are the way to go. That way I can choose wide rims, no problem.

v1nce

Well, having got a lot of perspective since i finished my 20 build... If i were to do it again i'd keep it even more cheap, standardized and bomb proof. To wit:

No other hub other than SA AW unless i was planning to spend a lot/tour a lot or some such.
As a mechanic i see all other hubs giving more trouble than i find acceptable especially as the newer units are so costly.

406 for sure, skinny tires on either 20 size might not be exactly comfortable, just check out Sheldon' Browns' hot rod. So Big apples for me. But if i were to go the Skinny route i'd definately get a Brooks Flyer and ergonomic handlebar and the best bar tape or better yet foam.

Brakes, anything good and that you like, the ones in the pic looked nice! What Littlepixel says makes sense! Also there is always the option of Sheldon's drop bolt solution, with that you can probably use a lot of different side pull brakes, perhaps get some really nice old ones of a really good racer.

The reason why i advocate cheap and bomb proof is that the 20 might well be with you for 20 years. I notice if i drop a lot of money on a bike i get paranoid. Theft and all. I want i bike that performs great yet does not look flashy or costs me a bundle to replace in the unfortunate event of theft.

But of course YYMW depending on use and area.

BB, definately the Kinex, you are likely looking at a $100 to $ 150 saving right there..

Sammyboy

I'm not yet familiar with the Kinex, but I'm already liking what you're telling me about it! What is it, and where can it be found?

Sammyboy

Is this the creature we're talking about? I do hope so, because I can get those easily, ordered from my LBS.

https://www.fisheroutdoor.co.uk/publi...nex/BBK51.html

v1nce

Yes i think that is it. I had assumed that you were familiar with my page on my Twenty and the modifications i did. In the page i detail the whole Kinex thing. Just check out my sig. Also i have chanced my stance on the *** VS Kinex BB. The Kinex is a fine product and cheap! Just make sure you get the right length.

I really wouldn't mess with BB shell before trying the Kinex. Worse case scenario: it doesn't work for you and you are out 13 pounds. Then you can still try a different approach.

Sammyboy

Ok, so what length do I need? I've ordered my rims, only to realise that they're 48 hole, and of course, a Nexus is 36 hole. The wheelbuilding gods are divided, but there's a strong representation for the "No! Don't try to do it!" school of thought on building a wheel with 36 spokes on 48 holes.

rhenning

If it was me I would make them 24 spoke wheels. Skip every other hole in the rim and every third hole in the hub. I have a very early Bike Friday Pocket Rocket with 24 spoke rims/wheels and 36 spoke hubs. Got it in 93/94 and still working on the original wheels. No spoke breakage so far and I am in the 200 lb range. The advantage of 24 spokes is they are all the same size. Roger

Sammyboy

I'm currently around 240, though it's coming off really fast, so by the time I have the build kit together, I might be more in that range. It's that, or unmatched rims.

In other news, I'm doin' this all wrong. Yesterday, I forgot to watch the end of an auction, and missed a complete bike, Nexus 7 equipped, for £41 just down the road. Large saving, out the window.

And if powder coat really costs £100, then I'll be rattlecanning my bike. I'm not springing that kind of money for a matt black finish, powder coat OUGHT to be more in the £40 range.

mrbertfixy

edit

mrbertfixy

facing might be more problematic than you think. i modded my R20 with a lot of help from a friendly mechanic. after opening the bottom bracket and starting to rethread it, the middle of the BB is thicker than the outside, meaning the threading tool couldn't thread all the way in enough for the facing tool. we ended up putting the old BB back in.

the stock cranks are 165s and there isn't much clearance. if you never pedal while cornering (even around slight bends), you'll be fine.
the best thing i did was to make a new fork. the old fork was a little bent anyway. i got a 7 degree sloping cyclocross crown, fork blades, dropouts w/eyelets, 270mm steerer tube, and canti bosses from novacycles.com. around $80. the sloping crown means you don't have to rake the blades, and i got plug-in dropouts=no filing.

Sammyboy

I definitely don't have the chops to make my own fork. I've actually got a 170 crank on one side (long story) and it causes me no problems whatever, so I'm not worried about that, but thankyou. I think I'm going to try the Kinex BB solution.

LittlePixel

I said 'should cost less than...'
You could save by doing your own stripping; Powder coat is less fussy and you don't really need to totally get it down to bare metal to recoat like you would with paint, though the better the strip job the better the final coating. Problem with stipping yourself is stopping it rusting in the gap between stripping and getting it coated. and in my experience the undercoat on a Twenty takes a fair bit of sweat and tears to get off.

But you may well find a coatings place that's cheap. I was just quoting the upper scale beyond which you really shouldn't have to pay.

Sammyboy

Hmmm. Reading v1nce's page, it looks like I need a 137mm spindle on my BB - the biggest I can find over here is 131. Double hmmm. Perhaps the fact that I'm going to be running a converted road crank will help? I can run the ring on the outside, and hack the chainline out a bit more that way.