What about diamond frame bicycles? Are all these different manufacturers ripping each other off because they are all using diamond frame bikes? How about the first one to use Aluminium as a frame material...or carbon fibre? How about the first Y frame dual suspension mountain bikes? Who invented those? Should they be limited to one manufacturer?

The basis of humanity's progression is the ability to see what others have done before, learn from that , duplicate it and improve on it. Isaac Newton once said "If I have seen it further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." He recognized that his accomplishments were brought about through lessons learned from those who came before him. It's natural for people to take what someone else ahs already done and duplicate or improve it. Should this improvement be limited to only the company that started it? Should it be limited to companies in certain countries? Strida and A-bike both used the A frame. Now Chinese manufacturers are using that design as well. Should we all start screaming that people shouldn't buy Supercycles or Huffys because they are made in China and therefore rip offs? How long does a frame design have to be around before other manufacturers are allowed to produce it?

I understand the argument and sympathize. But part of Ritchie's argument is that "Scoop" -- as I recall the brand was called at the time -- could use the patent and maintaining its functionality without copying the appearance so closely. I recall that they even built a prototype that demonstrated the point.

Binch Shin Amuro Lee Garry 3001,

Thanks to all of you for standing up for laws protecting the original designer.
I see much merit in such views and I would feel guilt and shame to buy a fake
but if they are cheap enough and not dangerous then maybe my bad feelings
would give in to the practicality of owning a bike that is allowed even at rush hour
on our commuting trains and buses.

But I would prefer a Kick-Rollator to a Strida cause a Rollator one could sit on if the train or bus
are full and there is a long journey one hour trip. And the Rollator is allowed in Banks and other
fancy places cause it is an aid for elderly or challenged walkers. The Kick bike add on me think
of would be integrated in a way not jepardizing that Rollator status I hope.

Maybe Garry throw me out of the Strida forum but if there existed a Strida here locally
where I live for 100USD and brand new then I would buy it unless it was obvious very
dangerous to ride it. I would test ride it first I guess. Sorry. I do have respect for Mark
Sanders and Ming but 100$ is 100$

That's just it though. I have hammered the Merc uphill and down dale for 3000 miles. I use it winter and summer - more in the summer, but certainly in all weathers including light snow. I just took it outside and photographed it for you five minutes ago. Here it is in the here and now - not prettied up - just as it is, in workaday mode.




It is very far from falling apart and my only unexpected troubles were with the original chain tensioner which didn't seem up to the job. Other problems have been minor like the few spokes that went in the early days, and that only happened because of my abuse. This bike is available now at £280 cash - not on ebay or with paypal charges, or £330 with paypal and ebay seller fees.

:) I hope I didn't get too over the top....

I really like the Brompton design. I think they are very nice bikes. I like the steel frame too. I'd really like the raw laquer one if it had a twistgrip change, mudguards, a rack, a lighting set, a bag to carry it in and the front luggage system - oh - as long as it cost £330 and could be delivered in three days from paying on the internet.

At the time I really wanted one, they had a ludicrous waiting list - I was quoted several weeks, and the damned thing cost about six hundred pounds. I'd have paid it if they could have handed over a bike, but that isn't the way it works. I started looking for second hand ones and found the Merc. I had it within days.

I'm sure that people who have Bromptons love them. I know they do, and I'm glad for them, but if you go to the Bromptontalk Yahoo list, you'll find a right bunch of sychofantic, narcisists and masochistic overpayers who squeel with delight at the long waiting lists and high prices and convince themselves that it's all because the bike is so exclusively wonderful..... 'Beat me harder - harder and charge me double what it's worth.' :)

evilv, ur merc is looking great.
If its taken the abuse u had thrown at it and it comes back for more. U can't grin wider than that knowing it gets the job done without the shiny badge.

Its like ppl boycotting SRAM since they copy shimano. Simply rediculous.

The most obvious difference in the strida's and their illigitimate cousins is the Kenda tires. The single gear really hinders effiency, top speed and acceleration, handling when under 65psi minimum. The fakers tires only max out at 35psi or less!

My positive ownership experience with the Merc is what prompted me to look at the Strida clone. Not all clones are crap. I was impressed with the Strida clone and actually bought one for my sister (for $275). The build quality is quite good, very analogous to the Merc/Brompton comparison.

I wouldn't have bought it to give to my little sis unless I was sure. Trueno92's characterization of the Strida clone in this thread and others is very accurate, in my opinion.

To me, whether something violates intellectual property protection is very black and white. It's either legal, or it isn't. If it's legal, I'll buy it on the basis of a financial calculation. If it isn't, I won't buy it. The rest of the conversation is a moral argument. For every 10 people on Bike Forums, you'll get 12 different moral arguments. I'm old enough to decide that for myself, thank you.

That is good to know SC. According to where we eventually buy a house, I might look at the strida.

With regards to the second comment, I think that you are wildly underestimating the true figure. ;)

haha for me, it was buy a genuine strida, or the clone AND a weber performer BBQ.

After closely inspecting the bike, the choice was easy.

Btw, my post in the ebay thread goes more in depth than what I summarized in this thread.

The moderators are cowards.

Or you could have gotten a genuine Strida and a clone Weber...? ;)

It's still simple. If there is legal action, I don't buy. If there is no legal action, then it tells me that the lawyers don't feel there's a case. I suppose there's a scenario where the lawyers are thinking about suing. But even after 28 years of marriage, I'm still not a mind reader, so I don't try to behave as one.

And I'm happy you have your own rationale for making these choice.

The moderators are cowards.

Thanks for your advice.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

ah, but there are still the arguments that arise from huffy or supercycle ripping off Asia-domestic-market bikes for sale only in north america (further putting north america into that utopia :rolleyes:) and we have yet to discuss all the moral complications of using tissue and not kleenex, and all those mom's cooking with no-name-brand shake & bake chicken mix!!! how do these unfit mothers sleep at night?!?!

:deadhorse:

anyways, found out how to attach a rear 5led light to the rear rack.. $3! woot.

Actually, according to some articles in the Economist, this is changing. Apparently, being an intellectual property lawyer in China is now quite lucrative.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I have not been to China and don't have any special knowledge regarding what is actually happening there.

For that matter, do you buy anything at retail, because it is, in fact, routine business for delivery trucks to park illegally and most drivers are instructed to simply take the ticket and submit it to the trucking office for payment.

There is quite obviously absolutely nothing wrong with buying knockoffs, legal or otherwise. Unfortunately, some people have been brainwashed by the incessant advertising that violations of copy restrictions is "stealing", when the fact of the matter is that it is an entirely different animal, both legally and morally.

It is nice to have simple rules for living. Excuse me for not torturing myself for eating breakfast pastries which were delivered from an illegally parked truck. Obviously, not all illegal acts have the same legal or moral implications.

Design patents generally last fourteen years from the date the patent was granted. Legally that's how long others should wait before manufacturing copies.

I believe that intellectual property is worthy of protection. And in this case, when I've seen a letter written by the inventor stating that the IP was ripped off, I feel ethically compelled not to buy the copy.

That said, the ethical issue gets really complicated. How much responsibility must the consumer bear to make sure that everything he/she buys is genuine or legal and not an illegal copy? Designs and technologies are licensed every day, so it's not valid to say one should assume all copies are illegal. It's also not the consumer's job to enforce patent law. If one sees an item for sale at a much lower price than its competitor, and it is being sold through conventional channels (i.e. not off the back of a truck) how is one to know that it is an illegal copy? Are we ethically required to search for news of lawsuits, or to contact the original mfr. and ask if their product has been licensed or rebranded, every time we make a purchase? I think that's asking too much.

In the case of the Strida, we who have read this thread have a bitter pill to swallow. Now that we have reasonable evidence the the Strida copies are illegal, we are (should be) ethically compelled not to buy it. But we must do so with the knowledge that others who buy the copy without the knowledge of it being illegal can do so with a clear conscience.

The Strida was patented in '86, so this may be much ado about nothing.

Ming Cycle has also marketed the Strida at the same price as it was when manufactured in GB, despite the lower operating cost in Taiwan, making it much more likely that it would be copied. If they had dropped the price to reflect their costs, maybe there would have been less incentive.

Unless you purchase hand made products exclusively from high end botiques, I guarantee you that you buy knockoffs on a regular basis, especially if you shop at Wallmart, big box retailers, online, and ebay. http://www.popsci.com/iclone .

The manufacturers have to share a large portion of the blame for the current situation. In their greed for the bottom line they have rushed to offsore as much as possible and made it possible for the third world to manufacture just about everything. What did they think was going to happen?

They even created their own knockoff lines with the advent of the outlet stores.

Me thinks they protest too much.

"...these Fakes are illegal because people (and governments) realise that fakers are tricking users--with dangerous, untested products which use poor materials etc. If something goes wrong the faker takes no responsibility. Apart from this, designers' and inventor's original work, and IP is respected." --letter from Mark Sanders, here: http://www.stridaforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=413

He's saying they could be illegal if they are shoddy enough to be dangerous, but specifically states that the "designers' and inventors' original work (his own), and the IP (Ming's) is respected." Doesn't get much clearer than that. Strida design is out of patent protection and may be legally copied. Forum members are reporting here that quality is satisfactory.

So what's the problem with these now?

"Originally Posted by jdownie China does not care about IP so it would be impossible to go after the manufacturer.

Actually, according to some articles in the Economist, this is changing. Apparently, being an intellectual property lawyer in China is now quite lucrative.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I have not been to China and don't have any special knowledge regarding what is actually happening there."

I have been to China and do regular business there. For a CD/DVD duplication project we have going on right now, we had to sign forms saying that we claim control of copyright and rights for reproduction, also there is governmental review of all material being duplicated (granted, this is political control rather than IP protection). Without the legal docs and gov't review, we could not legally reproduce material in China. This is more than it takes to reproduce something at this level here in the states--no docs to sign off on asserting copyright ownership and duplication rights, no gov't review.

That being said, the Rolexes being sold at markets for $20 were probably not real... There's still plenty of problems over there regarding IP issues.

Frankly, I'm pretty disgusted when I hear what is more and more coming across as acceptable bigotry in regards to China. I guess it shouldn't surprise me--Taiwan and Japan went through the same things before they were embraced at the retail/consumer "most favored nation status" level. Won't be too long before people start clamoring for Chinese made bikes and dumping on India for alleged IP infringment.

If you want better or longer IP protection on patent material, lobby your congresscritter--Disney has done an amazing job protecting Mickey and even a casual observer will note copyright has been extended by Congress pretty much every time the release of Mickey into the public domain has threatened. IP is a just another political football, not some objective standard.

But these "Strida knockoffs" are legit. The other company using Strida's/Ming's copyright material for their marketing is a different beast altogether--that is blatantly illegal copyright infringment by international standards. Maybe not Chinese... So if you get in a kerfluffle about copyright protection for marketing copy and photography, there's the crux of what you might possibly have against something like this, but as far as IP regarding the bike design, they are completely in the clear.

mconlonx

you are my hero.

haha,..
well you hit all the points, bang-on. When I was in china < 6 months ago, i saw so many new and cool bikes/electro-bikes (friggin everywhere) that it would not surprise me in the least to see some big name completely copy something that will be another few years to make it into north america. I don't see anyone sticking it into these companies for mass producing an idea that evolved from a country where the greater population in asia ride bikes DAILY cuz they don't have a choice!

anyways, where is the original poster of this thread, did he ever get one of these bikes? im so tempted to get one of these.. lol

http://www.bikersden.com/public/Prod.../Thumbnail.jpg

anyone rip about with one of these lids on their folders?

This has been covered before with Brompton, etc...

No intellectual property is being stolen. The patents on the Strida are long expired. That's what happens when a patent gets old. Do you still want to only have Kleenex providing facial tissue, or should we sue all those companies, too? Patents do expire, and it's all public information. Check it out.

Just to be clear and avoid the oncoming rebuttle, patents can be extended, but there are limitations. I would think the original inventor liquidating all his stake probably doesn't allow that as a possiblility.

On the contrary, as a firm believer in the sanctity of copyright I must argue that the copyright laws must be exercised to remain healthy and beneficial to society. In order for copyright law to work there must be a balance between the interests of inventors and the interests of the public. If the public does not push then there will be no balance and everyone will lose. Therefore, it is every consumer's moral responsibility to buy and encourage knockoffs. Let the copyright holders fight for their rights, if they really think it is worth it.

Anything less is downright uncapitalist. You aren't some kind of pinky pink communist are you? :)

Makeinu - you are a fan of 'carry-me' by pacific .... would you buy a fake carry -me ?