invisiblehand

Yep ... but I make it even easier, I use a dry lube.

EvilV

Hey - I'm not interested in a fight here, and I don't think you are, it's just about politeness. People log in here and try to help solve people's problems. If a guy tells me something I already know, or it doesn't quite answer my question, I tell him, 'Thanks a lot there pal', rather than throw his efforts back in his face.

I like those internal hubs too, but some readers with a derailleur and a problem of it going out of adjustment will probably be delighted to get a solution.


Each to his own.

yamcha

derailleurs get out of adjustment all the time from just riding.

GreenGrasshoppr

I hate those rattling Sram DualDrives, though

rhm

Okay, I give up! I don't have to take the wheel off my Strida to replace a tube, and I know how to patch a tube on my other bikes without taking the wheel off, but reading your post and looking at your photo... no, I still don't get it.

By the way, to fold without changing the adjustment, I shift to my lowest gear; I find the higher tension keeps things from moving around.

folder fanatic

I have only used and owned internal hub gears since 1999 when I decided to go back into biking for serious use beyond just recreational riding. I have been lured and swayed by the derailleur revolution of the late 1960s and the 1970s because inaccurately I thought that derailleurs were "superior" to internal hubs. That is, until I grew tired of the endless adjusting/cleaning of the "superior" drivetrain. Now I am rather "retired" from heavy duty fancy bike riding with the "crowd." I ride the bikes with the drivetrain that has proven itself over the years-internal hub hidden gears. And for smaller wheels with a folding/separating frames, nothing beats this system-except for single speed or fixies.

invisiblehand

Not really. How many times in the last 1000 miles was there a need to adjust your rear derailer? Anecdotally writing, most people can go a pretty long time.

In my opinion, both derailer and internal hub drivetrains have their advantages.

Derailers are extremely reliable, cheap and easy to fix, easier to change a tire/remove a wheel, more efficient, and lighter.

Internal hubs are more reliable, expensive and difficult to fix, more difficult to change a tire/remove a wheel, and heavier.

Personally speaking, assuming typical on-road/paved trail usage, the derailer damage issue becomes a big enough problem when you have a 16" wheel and/or one is going to do a lot of multimode commuting/travel. At that point, I give serious consideration to an internal hub. Otherwise, particularly for around-town riding, it really doesn't matter that much. So I generally recommend that one get the bike that is less expensive.

But if a particular set of qualities really tickles your fancy, then why not get what you want?

mulleady

I love my 8 speed SA hub on my downtube VIII H, far smoother change than a derailleur. Totally agree Yamcha changing gears at lights when stationary is perfection!

EvilV

It is, I agree, but really, it's easy enough if you are caught at the lights in the wrong gear with a derailleur, to press the changer, lift the back wheel and spin the pedals. Writing that down was MUCH harder than doing it would be. It's very easy.

Nachoman

Never done the internal hub drivetrain, but I have no problems with my 9 speed 105 getting out of adjustment. Other problems, yes. But adjustment problems, no.

yamcha

A pound or two of extra weight shouldn't evem be considered. You can lose more weight than that on the toilet. There seems to be a lot of fat people who are worried about a little extra weight on their bikes! (I don't mean you but maybe you are.) For the ones that need to lose weight: you guys need to add as much weight to your bikes as possible and pedal uphill in the highest gear you can handle.

Internal hubs ARE NOT more expensive. You can go through 5 deraileur gear systems before you have to replace and internal hub. There are SA hubs from the 60's that are still working and Shimano hubs from the 70's! The things dont rust. I haven't had a flat in years since I put Mr Tuffy tire liners in.

yamcha

Yeah but I don't like having to lift up the back wheel and spin my tires. My chain has come off doing that before. I prefer just putting it into the gear I want and going.

EvilV

Yes - I love my srf3 SA hub. It rocks, changes with complete reliability and is a nice thing in any case. I've had it apart and I like to envisage all the whirring bits as I'm riding the bike. If I can't sleep at night, I just spend a few minutes picturing the power transfer between the parts in my head in the different gears. This is all explained here for a three speed like the SA. https://www.lafn.org/~dave/trans/bicycle/3-speed-theory.htmlThis business is so 'fascinating' that within a minute, I am fast asleep. Works like a dream.

invisiblehand

Actually, in particular with folding bikes, I know several people that would disagree with the assertion that the extra pound or two matters little. Essentially, they feel that the extra weight is a big consideration when picking the bike up. With respect to performance riding, you can figure out what the extra pound means to your velocity at https://austinimage.com/bp/BikeSheet.html. (Although the site seems to be down at the moment)

Just to match your emphasis, internal hubs ARE MORE EXPENSIVE both to purchase and repair. Particularly in the present value sense. This is especially true with wider-geared models that you were using to make your comparison earlier. Although there are examples of hubs that last an extremely long time and it is uncommon for them to break, it is not an extreme event for one to break. When it does break, there is a lot more effort and expense to repair or replace it. Decent derailers are dirt cheap: I see a perfectly fine $9 and $15 Shimano derailer at Nashbar now. A quick search found the SA 3-speed hub at Jensen for $63. It only gets worse from there.

I am a little surprised that someone found that an internal hub shifted better. Particularly when under stress, I always found that there was a slight hesitation with internal hubs -- I never rode a Rohloff, but have ridden many other internal hubs -- relative to the rear derailer. But that is just my own experience and not a scientific fact or empirical truth.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with a preference for internal hubs. But there are tradeoffs involved to choosing one.

Paul Braithwait

Why so complicated? Just cover the inner tube with patches before you fit it and if you have a puncture it will alrerady be fixed!

jur

Nope.

Ok I'll tell all... very simple really.

Shift the gears to the slack cable setting. Stand the bike upside down (watch for damage though). Unhook the brakes.

Take the rear tyre off to the non-drive side, pull out the tube to that side too.

Loosen the QR/axle nuts.

Get the tube down to the axle, open the gap between axle and dropout just enough to slip the tube through.

Tada! No greasy hands, no chain+derailer to struggle with before & after, no shifting cables/clickboxes to bother etc.

It came to me one day as I was trying to fix a flat on my Swift which has a slightly difficult to remove rear wheel partly due to the dropout being a track end. On an earlier occasion I once realised that to take the tube out the non-drive side avoids a mess and interference with the chain. So I had the tube off, found the leak, saw it was un-fixable, and realised I could just slip it through without messing with the chain and taking the wheel off. Now I do it always on all my bikes.

alhedges

That's a feature, not a bug...on MUPs I barely have to use my bell at all because the peds hear the clicking behind them.

I'm a fan of gear hubs, but they do have their drawbacks - derailleurs replaced them because der's had a much wider gear range than the 3-speed hubs available at the time...and der's still tend to have wider gear ranges than newer hubs.

WRT folders, front derailleurs and triple chainrings are more problematic than rear der's because of the fold; that's why I compromised on dual drive for my Bike Friday. And if I didn't frequently travel to hilly Kentucky, I would have gone with a simple 8-speed hub; that would simplify things even more.

For most people, derailleur maintenance isn' t much of an issue - not true if you are a year-round commuter, of course...but if you mostly ride your bike on nice days, your derailleur will run pretty well, for years.

And I have heard anecdotal stories about - specifically - nexus 7's that only lasted a year or so of regular commuting. Typically by heavier riders with commuter-loaded bikes - but that suggests that there is some room for improvement of the hubs.

On the other hand, it is much cooler than I imagined just being able to select a gear while at rest. Even with dual drive, just dropping down to first on the hub is enough to make starting up again really simple, and it would be nice if I could do that with any gear.

maranen

Oil makes the hub practically noiseless and noticeably smoother to operate. I followed your instructions and used 10W40 - it's ok, but I intend to experiment with 10W30 especially in winter conditions. And you were right that too much oil is bad - drag increases. I apply the oil trough the centre of the axle with an injection needle, but I intend to drill the outer case and fit a nipple.

awetmore

The clickbox isn't very fragile, especially if you install the guard that comes with the hub. It is less fragile than a rear derailleur. The clickbox is also much easier to install and remove than the cable fixing system that comes on the Shimano Nexus hubs. I know that people don't like the clickbox, but I don't understand why. I've built 3 bikes (two folders) using the SRAM S7.

The i9 looks like an even better system. It should be easier to remove than the Nexus while being as well protected.

The Rohloff cable attachments are also very nice.

We've only had reliable and fairly light wide range internal hubs (7, 8, 9, 14 speed models) for the last 10 years. Derailleur gears are a big jump from 3sp hubs, especially for hilly areas. A 300% range 7 or 8sp hub is pretty comparable to many derailleur setups and much nicer to use.

awetmore

It is true that derailleurs are cheaper. However you also need to do an apples to apples comparison. An internal hub is replacing the rear hub, cassette, and derailleur. Often the shifter is included too. At retail prices a 7sp SRAM is about $100 more than a similar derailleur setup.

The Rohloff doesn't shift that well under heavy loads either. At best the internal hubs (and the best for this specific example is the Shimano 8sp) will let the shifter move and then the hub will shift to the next gear when you let up a little on the pedals.

Derailleurs don't really like shifting under heavy loads either. Shimano hyperglide made it possible, but things don't last as long if you do it frequently.

The indexing on internal hubs tends to be much more robust and easier to keep in adjustment. I think that this is why many people find them to shift better. Being able to shift at stops is also a major advantage. I wouldn't say one system is clearly better than the other for shifting, I'd just say that they both work and have their advantages.

alex

awetmore

I haven't met anyone yet who's put more than 10k miles on a bike with a Nexus hub (7sp or 8sp) and had the hub last. The SRAM and Rohloff hubs are much more reliable. I know of many SRAM S7 hubs being used by cargo bikes with 10's of thousands of miles on them with no issues. The only one that I've seen fail is on a cargo bike with a very powerful electric assist that has more torque than most humans.

Hopefully the SRAM i9 is as reliable as the SRAM S7.

alex

invisiblehand

That is a good point. I focused on the cost of the derailer since the prior point was about replacing a worn/broken derailer.

rhm

I haven't tried one, in part because the clickbox scared me off. My reasoning was that the way a folding bike folds, in most cases, puts the wheels side-by-side; so the thicker the wheels, the thicker the folded package. Effectively that means the clickbox would add to the overall width of the bike, and of course its exposed location would make it especially vulnerable. How tough is the clickbox guard?

Aside from that, when I was shopping for a hub I couldn't find the Sram shifters for sale anywhere, which is also a problem.

Sixty Fiver

With the continued improvements and expanded rage we are seeing in internal gear hubs the derailer equipped bike may soon be relegated to those who ride competitively.

I equipped my 3 speed SA equipped Twenty with a derailer and double cogs to give me a much expanded gearing range and as the bike does not get folded often this works really well and the upkeep is very simple.

If I had a folder that I planned on travelling with it wold not have a derailer of any kind and if I should come across a decent hub with a wider gear range then my dual drive will get replaced.

I do have an SA 5 speed that I am thinking of using on my other folder as it does have a pretty wide range of gearing.

awetmore

The clickbox guard is made of 1/4" solid steel. It is much tougher than just about any piece on most bikes, including the chainstays and seatstays on many bikes. In addition the clickbox + guard sticks out less than a rear derailleur. If you are talking about converting a bike designed for a rear derailleur then there is no real problem with folding the bike when you switch to a clickbox.

They are sold with the clickbox and hand grips. Any bike shop that didn't know this from a 10 second look in their catalogs shouldn't have been selling any internal hub.

alex