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Dahon's new brompton lookalike?

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Dahon's new brompton lookalike?

Old 06-23-08, 05:24 AM
  #51  
Raxel
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Somnatash, where have you got those figures? Have you scaled them yourself?
Quite surprising to see that brompton parts are that light. I have seen many people who changed cranks to 'lighten' their bromptons, but there are few cranks lighter than 809g! Most carbon cranks weigh more (FSA K-force mega exo weighs 850g, for example)
And are brompton rims really 287g? They look 2 times wider than velocity rims..

Maybe my guesses are all wrong and bromptons are using lightweight (although cheap looking) parts. :[
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Old 06-23-08, 09:10 AM
  #52  
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you know what? im wondering if MERC is selling their production to dahon to produce these.. with a few dahon refinements..

cuz what happened to MERC? i mean i woudln't be surprised to see merc bundling off production or even being bought by dahon..

and i would be surprised to see this dahon for less than $800usd. it sounds like its going to be the top model for a little bit.
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Old 06-23-08, 09:22 AM
  #53  
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I like how the tires basically envelope the bike. Hopefully this will:
1. Make it easy to simply add a strap and carry it like a messenger bag without having the metal parts jab and scratch your skin.
2. Simply stick it in a cardboard box for airline travel and let the pneumatic tires protect it.

The exposed chain might be a problem, but you probably don't need to oil the chain on a derailleurless bike anyway.

Looking forward to taking one for a test ride when it's released.
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Old 06-23-08, 09:27 AM
  #54  
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trueno, Merc is actually made by Flamingo in Taiwan. Merc simply puts their badge on the Flamingo-built bike as far as I can tell.

--sam
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Old 06-23-08, 10:01 AM
  #55  
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thanks sam! we need cheaper brommys.....
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Old 06-23-08, 02:18 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by jur View Post
To me it looks like the patent has been granted, US patent #20070210556.
In case anyone is interested:

That is a published US patent application. Granted US patents are currently in the high 7 millions (the granted US patent will be 7,xxx,yyy).

EP granted patents are also 7 digits, but for extra confusion, published EP applications have an A1, A2, or A3 suffix and granted patents have a B1 suffix.

I'm a patent attorney but do not work in the mechanical arts. I will not comment on any of the patentability or validity issues raised earlier in this thread. Sorry
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Old 06-23-08, 03:36 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Raxel View Post
Maybe my guesses are all wrong and bromptons are using lightweight (although cheap looking) parts. :[
When I've measured Brommie parts (digital scales, about the same weights as listed), I've found it quite difficult to find lighter parts. Their parts may look low-tech and cheap but they are fairly light.
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Old 06-23-08, 04:06 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Raxel View Post
Somnatash, where have you got those figures? Have you scaled them yourself?
Well, as said from the www. Some (brompton rims, telescopic seatpost, pentaclip) scaled on digital kitchen scale - so nothing "official".

Quite surprising to see that brompton parts are that light. I have seen many people who changed cranks to 'lighten' their bromptons, but there are few cranks lighter than 809g! Most carbon cranks weigh more (FSA K-force mega exo weighs 850g, for example)
Yes, it seems difficult to find a lighter cranks/bb/chainwheel combination. The brompton stuff in this respect is already quite light - and for some too soft. Some people change the cranks not to "lighten" but to stiffen the drive.

And are brompton rims really 287g? They look 2 times wider than velocity rims..
Yes, they are 287g, mine at least.
From Velocity's page, they specify Aeroheat outer (!?) width is 24mm,
and the Aerohead outer width is 20mm...Brompton outer rim width is 25mm.

Maybe my guesses are all wrong and bromptons are using lightweight (although cheap looking) parts.
Its a pity, Raxel was guessing when said brompton used "heavy components of old design" I was hoping for some hints how to lighten the 21lbs.

Last edited by somnatash; 07-26-08 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 07-25-08, 11:15 AM
  #59  
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ugghh i cant see the chain

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Old 07-25-08, 11:18 AM
  #60  
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Keep looking... it's there.

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Old 07-25-08, 01:24 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by what bike? View Post
ugghh i cant see the chain
Did you perhaps want to say: wurgghh, I can see the chain...(there on the outside)?
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Old 07-26-08, 11:31 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Raxel View Post
I've just heard this very interesting info that dahon is going to release a new ultracompact folder.


-It will be named 'Curl'
-It will have 18" wheel
-It will fold like brompton. (Rear swingarm folds downwards, not sideways like current dahons)
-It will have aluminium frame that look like current Curve model.


And I guess it will have V-brakes, internal gear hub (3 speed/8 speed), Klickfix mount as such.
At last, modernized brompton from dahon... I can't wait to get one.


[pic]https://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage.p...84e2419f2e2df9[/pic]
I have seen and posted a early thread on this bike. While I think it is very nice that Dahon is "honoring" Brompton by being inspired by them, I still think that Brompton is the better buy. For the sheer reason that Bromptons are handmade in the way of the old craftsman style of assembly. They are intended for years of loving use. Dahons are more in the line of casting aside a model that might work well, but it is not innovative enough for them. That means obsolescence is pretty much built right in and garanteed in older models (just try to get a part to replace a worn out one) and you are stuck with a bike that could be fixed just for a want of a single part.
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Old 07-26-08, 11:55 AM
  #63  
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Sorry to reiterate the Brompton is not dated. It is designed for a purpose and it serves that purpose very well as FF clearly points out. As I said in another thread the Brompton was a bike ahead of its time and now a bike of of its time.

Dahon make some very nice 20" folders but I'm struggling event to compare even the Curve SL to a good Brompton as nice as it is. It's an old argument and tends to go around in circles. I have my Brompton 3 months now and absolutely love it. Folds well, rides well and has a great front luggage system and a touring pannier which I often use for fill-in shopping with a cavernous 28 litre capacity, or for carrying extra papers and stuff to work. The only thing it can't really do is ride off-road but I have a Downtube FS for that!

I look forward to seeing the Curl but I doubt it will be much cheaper than the Brompton at the high end. The Brompton chain also folds inside. The only thing I'd love to see Brompton do is introduce an 8 speed hub with wider gearing range and a single shifter. Aside from that it's still very much at the forefront of compact folders with a decent ride.

Last edited by mulleady; 07-26-08 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 07-27-08, 10:31 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
I have seen and posted a early thread on this bike. While I think it is very nice that Dahon is "honoring" Brompton by being inspired by them, I still think that Brompton is the better
Dahon consistently gives a better warranty than Brompton ; how can you make claims that Dahon is making throwaway bikes? Brompton almost fell out of the market because of their small size and inability to secure someone to make a proprietary hub for them a few years ago. Although I have 2 Bromptons, I bought them because there was no competition. There are too many areas where refinement is necessary and the price has been playing with the lack of competition in the market. Your posts on this matter show blind loyalty rather than giving an opportunity for a better competitor to come into this specific very compact genre.
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Old 07-27-08, 10:59 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by jagatron View Post
Dahon consistently gives a better warranty than Brompton ; how can you make claims that Dahon is making throwaway bikes? Brompton almost fell out of the market because of their small size and inability to secure someone to make a proprietary hub for them a few years ago. Although I have 2 Bromptons, I bought them because there was no competition. There are too many areas where refinement is necessary and the price has been playing with the lack of competition in the market. Your posts on this matter show blind loyalty rather than giving an opportunity for a better competitor to come into this specific very compact genre.
I don't think Folderfanatic meant to say Dahon made 'throwaway' bikes! I think she probably meant they are inclined to change models too much which is true. Personally, they are a great company on the whole.

Brompton were only ever in danger of exiting the market or actually not entering it in the 1980's due to capital funding issues. I think Andrew Ritchie is a great character. Brompton continue to make one of the finest compact folders. You are so mistaken saying Brompton charge high prices because of market dominance. Dahon have a far larger market share. Brompton's pricing is based on relative demand for their brand and also the fact that their manufacturing continues to be based in the UK, not oursourced to a low cost country. Perhaps there is something to be admired in that?

There are not that many areas where refinement is necessary. The Brompton is not designed to be a high performance bike but a practical, ergonomic and durable cycle with a great fold. Sure, some minor improvements are due but that could be levelled at any manufacturer. In the end you have 2 yourself which must mean the fold won you over?

Last edited by mulleady; 07-27-08 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 07-27-08, 06:30 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
Brompton's pricing is based on relative demand for their brand and also the fact that their manufacturing continues to be based in the UK, not oursourced to a low cost country. Perhaps there is something to be admired in that?
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say "relative supply".

A big turnoff I have when it comes to the Brompton is that here in the US you have to practically beg someone to sell it to you. Not only are they exorbitantly priced, but even stocking dealers don't actually stock the bikes or compatible parts and the closest dealer is often hundreds of miles away. No thanks, I don't need to go chasing people for the privilege of paying them a lot of money. Dahons are available in every city and bikes from Downtube, Pacific, and Bike Friday can be delivered to your door with moneyback trial periods.

While I wouldn't mind owning a Brompton, I'm not going to buy one unless I can try out all the various options and I'm certainly not going to rearrange my schedule to get to a shop hundreds of miles away on one of the 10-12 days a year when they just so happen to have a single Brompton configuration in stock. When I shop I compare things side by side, I like to have a choice of dealers, and I'm not going to stop doing so in lieu of an impulse buying frenzy (especially if I'm paying a premium, when I'm even more inclined to inspect and compare). Looking at the bikes that were available 10 or 20 years ago I have no doubt that the Brompton would have been my first choice, but today the rest of the market is moving so fast that by the time I jump through all the hoops to do my due diligence on buying a multithousand dollar Brompton it will probably be obsolete (at least I hope so because, let's face it, even as one of the smallest folders available the Brompton doesn't live up to the folding bike dream of "always take your bike with you").

In the end I think the most overlooked factor when it comes to comparing the various folder offerings is location. From what I understand Raxel pretty much has unlimited choice in his folders and his view of the Brompton is no doubt shaped by that. Those of you in the UK probably find the Brompton more available, but for me buying a Brompton seems like such a monumental hassle that I doubt I'd ever get around to buying one even if I intended to.

P.S. How is hiring relatively rich englishmen at the expense of poor chinese admirable? I would think that providing jobs for the less fortunate would be the thing to be admired.

Last edited by makeinu; 07-27-08 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 07-27-08, 08:27 PM
  #67  
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If the "relatively" rich Englishman doesn't have a job because it's been sent to China, how long do you think he'll be "relatively" rich? It is admirable to keep the jobs in the UK, because it means profit is not the only motive of Brompton. Not to be obnoxious, but is buying things as cheaply as possible, no matter who it hurts in the long run, your only motive? Perhaps you may feel differently if your job is sent overseas someday...
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Old 07-27-08, 09:16 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by rbkinz View Post
If the "relatively" rich Englishman doesn't have a job because it's been sent to China, how long do you think he'll be "relatively" rich? It is admirable to keep the jobs in the UK, because it means profit is not the only motive of Brompton. Not to be obnoxious, but is buying things as cheaply as possible, no matter who it hurts in the long run, your only motive? Perhaps you may feel differently if your job is sent overseas someday...
If you're so concerned about the evils of the profit motive then why not support companies that pay chinese workers english wages?

I don't consider jingoism to be a more admirable motive than profit. Imperfect as it may be, in the long run the profit motive has done a lot more good for the world than jingoism ever has. In truth it really makes no difference whether your job is sent overseas or over the railroad tracks and to draw a distinction is nothing more than a subtle form of racism.
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Old 07-27-08, 09:59 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by makeinu View Post
If you're so concerned about the evils of the profit motive then why not support companies that pay chinese workers english wages?

I don't consider jingoism to be a more admirable motive than profit. Imperfect as it may be, in the long run the profit motive has done a lot more good for the world than jingoism ever has. In truth it really makes no difference whether your job is sent overseas or over the railroad tracks and to draw a distinction is nothing more than a subtle form of racism.
I never said the profit motive was "evil". However, since you raised the subject, profit being one's sole motive is most assuredly evil, as well as stupid in the long run. Equally, price being the sole factor in one's purchasing decisions is stupid in the long run.

Please tell me the name of a few Chinese companies that pay their Chinese workers English wages? Chinese workers get paid less because the Chinese government and Chinese employers (who are often one in the same) exploit them--why do you advocate supporting company's that exploit their workers? Are you a Chinese nationalist who is willing to crush the average Chinese worker for the greater glory of China?

If you are really so naive as to think that there is no difference between supporting businesses that are propped up and aided by a dictatorial Chinese government with virtually no worker protection laws and that has no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, limited private property rights, etc. versus a European country that does, you are beyond the point of logical reasoning. That's not jingoism or racism my friend, its common sense that is not blinded by the short term profit motive.

One final thought: you certainly like to throw contentious words around ("rich", "evil", "jingoism", "racism"). My guess is your a young guy with no family who has yet to take it on the chin a few times. Tell us how things work in a decade or two when you are the father of a couple of kids with a mortgage and car payments and your boss tells you at 5 PM Friday not to bother coming in on Monday because the company had decided it would like to save a few bucks by having someone in another country do your job...

I use to think like you... then I got out in the real world and had to grow up.

RK
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Old 07-28-08, 01:26 AM
  #70  
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How is hiring relatively rich englishmen at the expense of poor chinese admirable? I would think that providing jobs for the less fortunate would be the thing to be admired.
Who said they were all English at the Brompton factory? They could be ethnically British citizens or from the EU too. Since when were the Chinese destitute too like you imply? Does that make Walmart a good company for utilising a large Chinese supply chain? Have you seen how they get treated? A very moralistic comment. Companies that show some commitment to still keeping operations in their oe country are few and far between in both the UK and the US these days. I mean look at the damaga offshoring and over-importing has done to the US and UK economies.

rbkinz you speak much common sense.

I would agree with you makeinu that perhaps Brompton's dealership support in the US might deter some consumers in the US. However, I notice that it is mostly people your side of the pond that start off anti-Brompton rants which are normally naive and misplaced. As for implying that rbkinz implied 'subtle racism' in his views, that's 100% ludicrous. I'd have thought your views closer to that actually and even that's probably pushing it!

Here are some corrections about Brompton:

1) From a performance folder point of view, Brompton's parts and design might seem old-fashioned and traditional. However the bike is not aimed at that segment and never has been. Brompton parts are durable and dependable. While dependable is boring to some, it is everything to oithers.
2) There is no point comparing the Brompton to performance folders. It was designed as a commute-and-go bike and remains that to this very day. At this it excels and is much loved by many owners who ahve bought it. While it could be used for touring by a relatively fit person or its range extended through some modifications, there are bikes that fit such a purpose better. Brompton even refer people to check out the competition as well before buying one of their bikes. They have no issues with competitors except 'knock-offs' of their design, The debate about copying Brompton has been covered on this forum already and is an interesting one.
3) Dahon is a bigger company than Brompton. Brompton has really only taken off in the 1990's as demand for folders has grown and grown. They do not manipulate supply. Tthey make a choice to manufacture from the UK and are perfectly happy to remain a smaller company. A choice that any entrepreneur is entitled to make. On this basis the little bike has become so popular that it has led to excess demand. I agree the price is high but there is no way it is due to market manipulation. Brompton have a higher cost base and are entitled to choose this route they want. Brompton only have power over their own brand. No-one has to pay their prices but lots seem happy to do so for various reasons.
4) Dahon have yet to make a "16 folder as good as the Brompton despite claims to the contrary. In fact as you move towards the Curve SL it starts entering the territory of the Brompton price range in 's. As Jur once said he doubts the Curl if and when it comes out will be a cheap bike. As far as most of us are concerned both Brompton and Dahon contribute some wonderful bikes to the market. Dahon possibly make too many changes and Brompton too little in product development (That has improved a bit since 2000). However, at the end of the day they both contribute fine products to the market overall and have a good brand reputation.

Therefore knocking Brompton's strategy as a company or labelling niche range as old-fashioned is both misinformed and represents a failure to understand what the bike really represents. And before anyone decides to rand thart I'm one of those bigoted Bromptonauts, I have a Brompton, Downtube FS, a Dutch folder and covet a Dahon!

Last edited by mulleady; 07-28-08 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 07-28-08, 07:44 AM
  #71  
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Oh mei ... there is a lot of rubbish in this thread .. alloy versus steel, chain here and there, new development versus old tried and true.... I will answer only to two issues :

Point one:
Dahon was granted a new patent for this folding bike , this in itself prooves the point, that they have not copied anything Brompton. Dahon is not out to destroy Brompton, they are merely looking out for themselves and their dealers - customers as they demand fresh and new ideas to make their wish bikes better than before. If Dahon would not heavily invest in progress, than they would not pay their R@D department big bucks and they still would sell their old foldabike. Which was cool at the time, but is nothing even close to todays folders. And although Dahon sells probably 50 to 100 times as many folders than Brompton, the total marketshare of ALL folders is below 1 % ... there is room to grow for all folding bike companies WITHOUT killing themselves

Point two
In their Chinese plant Dahon pays the highest wages , they have very low turnover in employees , they offer housing, sports, child activities for the kids of the employees , and than some. Mr David Hon the founder and owner lives in the same compound and has been seen playing hoops with his employees. The Chinese Dahon factory cannot put in the same basket as many other Chinese workplaces. Not by a longshot. Hearing this political unqualified drabble hurts when you know that the Hons are trying to make a real big difference in this regard.

thor
who happens to be a Dahon dealer, quite a lot because the social engagement of the Hon family , its not all about money !
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Old 07-28-08, 07:51 AM
  #72  
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Nice to hear Thor, very informative post.

Actually both Dahon and Brompton are quite socially responsible companies. Dodn't know so much about Dahon in China and that's excellent to hear. Says a lot for most of the quality bikes they manufacture, especially in 20" bikes.

I totally agree the Curl is not exactly a Brompton rip-off just a new bike targeting a similar segment. Good luck to them and I'm sure most of us can't wait to see it!
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Old 07-28-08, 08:23 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
Actually both Dahon and Brompton are quite socially responsible companies. Dodn't know so much about Dahon in China and that's excellent to hear. Says a lot for most of the quality bikes they manufacture, especially in 20" bikes.
Really makes you think about who is the one primarily motivated by money (Re: rbkinz talking about how discouraging companies like Dahon from continuing to practice social responsibility in China is better for his own job security).

I, for one, was aware of the way Dahon treats its workers, which is why I wouldn't pay a penny more for a Brompton just because it's built in the west (in fact, I may even pay a penny less).

.
.
.

To bring things back on topic I don't expect the Curl will be significantly cheaper than the Brompton either. What I do expect is that a used Curl will be significantly cheaper than a used Brompton and the inevitable 8 speed 20 pound Curl XXVII will be significantly cheaper than Leonard Rubin's Brompton.

Last edited by makeinu; 07-28-08 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 07-28-08, 08:37 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by makeinu View Post
Really makes you think about who is the one primarily motivated by money (Re: rbkinz talking about how discouraging companies like Dahon from continuing to practice social responsibility in China is better for his own job security).

I, for one, was aware of the way Dahon treats its workers, which is why I wouldn't pay a penny more for a Brompton just because it's built in the west (in fact, I may even pay a penny less).
Yes sure but it's wrong to imply that Brompton are rip-off merchants. The price is very much take it or leave it. Brompton treat their workers well in London and many over here are proud to buy into an indigenous British brand. They are not a high-profit company. Of course why should you over there? It's simply a matter of choice.
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Old 07-28-08, 08:45 AM
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makeinu
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Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
Yes sure but it's wrong to imply that Brompton are rip-off merchants. The price is very much take it or leave it. Brompton treat their workers well in London and many over here are proud to buy into an indigenous British brand. They are not a high-profit company. Of course why should you over there? It's simply a matter of choice.
You're right, they aren't ripoff merchants at all and I didn't mean to imply that.
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