snafu21

There's a lot of debate about cycling on the sidewalk in another thread. There appear to be several camps:

1) Cycling on sidewalks is morally incomprehensible and gets cyclists a Bad Name

2) Cycling on sidewalks is sometimes better than being killed by speeding traffic

3) People moralising about others behaviour should leave law enforcment to the police and get a life.


I got taken to task for admitting to cycling on the sidewalk in rural Oxfordshire. Yabbut. The road from Marcham to Abingdon is a 60 mph speed limit and heavily used by trucks. The sidewalk is used by pedestrians and bikes and both coexist peacefully. There is no cycle lane or signed cycleway, and even the local community police officers cycle on it. Yet, they are 'breaking the law'.

Flash to the Oxfordshire village of Carterton. Broad sidewalks, people of all ages and genders cycle on sidewalks. Nobody gives a hoot.

Yeah. I know NYC isn't some sleepy town in the UK. But would all you sofa-lawyers mind stopping telling other people what to do?

Thanks.





Folding bike content: I cycle on a folding bicycle, sometimes on the sidewalk.

Longfemur

Have you asked the pedestrians if they think you are coexisting peacefully?

Get a child's tricycle or a little bunny bike with training wheels, and nobody will bother you.

neilfein

You mean like you're doing?

Dynocoaster 

Do what is the safe for the circumstance.

Diode100

+1 (it is possible to ride on a pavement / sidewalk without causing danger to pedestrians, it just takes consideration)

LittlePixel

On days when I know I'm going to have to ride on the Pavement I get up extra early so that I have time to fit my specially CNCed 'BoadiceaRotatingKnife™' axle attachments to ensure I get a clear and consistent path through the plebians.

snafu21

[quote=Longfemur;7027192]Have you asked the pedestrians if they think you are coexisting peacefully?


Read the first message, third line, second paragraph.

snafu21

-10 points for another feckless answer. Back to playschool for you, me lad.

Longfemur

It doesn't just take consideration. It depends on the bicycle rider being aware, alert and not making a mistake. This is too much to expect, and pedestrians do get hit by sidewalk riders almost every day. Pedestrians on sidewalks (not bikepaths) can't be expected to look behind them to make sure they aren't being overtaken by a goofball bicycle rider before they make a move to the left or right, or step out from a storefront, etc. They aren't vehicles on a vehicle roadway. Vehicles and pedestrians don't mix, period -- anywhere, anytime. If you have to use a sidewalk, walk your bike. I'm really a very easy going guy, but this is one subject about which I'm willing to be dogmatic, and especially after a goofball cyclist ran into me on a sidewalk a few weeks ago. Another pedestrian was seriously injured this way just recently not far from where I live. The police had a very brief, mostly publicity-oriented anti-sidewalk riding campaign for a couple of days, and then everything was back to the normal bicycle-pedestrian pinball machine game.

snafu21

May you cycle on the sidewalk?

Your votes count:

Oxfordshire: +1
Ottowa: -1
Edison, NJ: Don't Know
London +1
London: Rotating Knives +1

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

keep 'em coming

Jagee

Do what is the safe for the circumstance.

+3. I use sidewalks sparingly and if there are storefronts and/or enough pedestrians and the road isn't a safe option, I get off and walk. If the sidewalk is suitable and road isn't--I've been hit, screamed at and sideswiped on the road while riding my bike--I'll take to the sidewalk.

Ultimately, this seems to be an issue of urban vs. rural/suburban. How can we have one discussion about two (or three) completely different kinds sidewalk situations? I can totally understand Longfemur's point on well used city sidewalks, but can't apply that same logic to the OP's Oxfordshire walkways.

4cmd3

Nominated for "Not another sidewalk thread"...

hasn't this been done to death?

Diode100

Well, I guess if you're talking about legislation, then you have to legislate for the worst expectation, in this case the ''goofball bicycle rider'' - so I suppose the law has to say no to sidewalk/pavement riding, in any circumstance. Mind you any urban cyclist who is not ''being aware, alert and not making a mistake'' (is that a double negative?) is probably not going to make it home for his tea one day soon.

To be honest, pedestrians are a pain in the ***, and it is as well to keep as far way from them as possible - have you ever walked behind one ? they are all over the place, turn left, turn right, slow dow, even stop dead still, pull out from the side without warning - a nightmare, I tell you.

bendembroski

I'm the one who chimed in on the sidewalk issue in the other thread, so I figure a response is due here. I'm not too interested in re-hashing the topic to death but... I will make a few points.

First, there is another option that you didn't post, so I'll add it here :

4) Cycling on the sidewalk is usually more dangerous for both cyclists and pedestrians, and therefore best avoided.

A good way to avoid getting hit by a car is to be easily seen by the driver of said car.

A good way to be easily seen is to be in place where the driver expects to see stuff (i.e. the road).

Most statistics suggest that you are less likely to whacked if you are riding in the road in an appropriate manner than if you are on the sidewalk. Unless you get off the bike, look both ways, and walk across all intersections, driveways, etc. while pootling alongside the peds on the pavement.

You might feel more comfortable on the sidewalk, but you aren't safer there.

As for danger to peds, I agree that this can reduced. Just ride at or below the speed that you could run along the same pavement. You'll still likely hit someone suddenly stepping out in front of you, but you probably won't kill them. Of course, at that speed (I dunno, 8 MPH or slower) you might have more fun leaving the bike at home and just going for a walk...

Country roads might be another issue, but I've never seen a sidewalk at the side of one. In fact, I've cycled around a few people that have had no choice but to walk in the road out in the country.

Timely thing, this thread, as I just saw on the BBC news the story reporting the sentencing of cyclist who killed a ped while cycling on the pavement. This guy sounded like he had total disregard for others safety, and I'm not suggesting for a minute that anyone on this forum would behave similarly. Just mentioning it in reference to public opinion of cyclists on the pavement. I've certainly never heard of a ped who was happy with cyclists on the sidewalk with them. Just because they're not yelling at you, doesn't mean they're happy about it. At the end of the day, you have no right to cycle on a sidewalk. You do however, have every right to cycle on the road (or cycle path).

So, it seems that only benefit cited to pavement cycling is that it's safer than riding with cars on the road. Except it's not. Sure, you might not be a significant danger to peds if you cycle slow enough. Then again, bikes are hard and if you do hit someone, you will hurt them. At least a little bit. Why risk it when there is little benefit to you doing so?

If the road you want to ride on is too busy / fast / narrow for you to feel safe while riding on it, you probably shouldn't. That's not the same thing as saying that is justification for riding on the sidewalk. The two issues are separate.

noteon 

Better make sure you never cross a bridge in New York.

Or tow a child trailer from Washington Heights to the greenway entrance during rush hour, where your alternative to the sidewalk is Broadway.

Or commute in Queens where the sewer grates are along the right side of the road, the drainage slots are wider than a bike tire, the local motorcycle boys race and pop block-long wheelies when the trucks aren't shooting through, and the sidewalk along the cemetery wall has a quarter-mile of clear visibility, no shops or buildings, and is almost always devoid of pedestrians.

Depending on the conditions, circumstances, etc., sometimes it's safer for everyone involved if the bicycle is on the sidewalk. I'll wild-ass-estimate that's true 1% of the time. The other 99%, the bike belongs on the road.

But that 1% counts.

bendembroski

Ok, so I just posted a reply, which I wrote in between tending to crying baby, washing up, etc.

I stand by the what I said, but would like to add something.

Common sense. I would concede that in the situation described by snafu21, cycling on the pavement is probably OK from a social standpoint. Provided that it's no more than a pootling pace. If there is precedent for all concerned co-existing happily, by all means have at it. However, if you hit a ped while on yer bike pootling on the pavement, I'd still be inclined to place full responsibility on the cyclist.

I can't say for sure not having seen the road, but I wouldn't assume that you are safer cycling on the sidewalk there either.

bendembroski

I'd argue that in all those cases, it's safer for all involved to walk the bike on the sidewalk.

noteon 

In the case of the bridge, you're in the way of the other cyclists.

In the case of the child trailer, you're blocking the sidewalk in some places because you've doubled your width.

In the case of the mile in Queens, you're adding significant unnecessary time to your commute, and not increasing anybody's safety, since there are almost never any pedestrians, and when there are, you can see each other coming from waaaay off.

I'd argue that you're arguing without much basis besides theory, and without seeing the actual roads and sidewalks.

(Nor, for that matter, how I navigate them.)

himespau 

Wow, hadn't heard of a cyclist killing a ped. Were there special circumstances, or was he just flying?

I only wish someone would tell drivers that. On the road I've gotten cursed at by drivers a number of times. Peds never, though I can't say I've ridden on a heavily trafficed sidewalk.

Dynocoaster 

If it is that congested fold the bike and ride the transit.

nigelme

I cycle on the pavement all the time and for some reason everyone just gets out of my way.

Here's my bike.



...and here's me on the way to work in the rush-hour.

bendembroski

Funny thing about these forum argument thingies. For every person making an argument based on theory, another will make a counter argument citing anecdotal specifics. There's not much point in continuing on in such a manner, cause all it tends to do is tick people off. I may or may not have ridden on the roads you are talking about, I'm guessing not. I'll offer the following rebuttal, in the spirit of completeness and offering an alternative viewpoint, then leave the matter alone. I think the people on the folding bike thread are good, reasonable people who don't go around knocking people about the pavements for kicks. It also seems that the members of this sub-forum try to ride safely and considerately. I certainly don't want to irritate people with pedantics, which is where these kind of discussions usually wind up. My response to your examples were more to illustrate that there are usually viable alternatives to riding on pavements in general terms. I was in no way trying to criticize your riding practice. As you rightly pointed out, It's something I have no knowledge of. Apologies if I caused offence.

The bridge:

Are there peds and cyclists sharing the same space ? If so, are the peds also in the way of cyclists ? If there are no peds, then it's effectively a cycle path.

Child trailer:

A child trailer doesn't take up anymore space than a two-seater jogging stroller thingy. It's possible to walk with one of those on the pavement in most cases.

The mile in Queens:

I dunno maybe it's safe for all concerned. It sounds like you're more likely to get whacked while crossing intersections while riding on the pavement there. (I'm assuming you know this and ride accordingly, just mentioning it here for the benefit of any newbies that might read this.)

OK. I'm going to go ride my bike now. The sun is shining, and that doesn't happen much in Glasgow these days.

TiberiusBTkirk

I use the sidewalk if I feel the road may be too dangerous but I don't use
the sidewalk if it's too busy with pedestrians. I rode mostly on the sidewalk
around the South street seaport area of manhattan, those side streets are
narrow and with lincoln town cars going by and bad roads ahead it can
get dicey. (cobblestones, ruts and potholes, stormgrates)
The side streets are more like alleyways so there's usually no peds walking
on it.

Sammyboy

I see two types of pavement cyclist here; first is chavvy types on BMX's and mountain bikes weaving in and out of people at speed, often looking over their shoulders at something else as they do. I want to punch these people. Second is elderly ladies and mothers pootling along the pavement at little more than walking pace. These people irritate me a little, as there's a perfectly good road, and their presence kinda validates the recklessness of the chavvy types, but I don't want to punch them. I would, given the opportunity, try hard to persuade them to use the road like grownups, not least because that's the best way to get cars to learn.

Personally, I ride on the road, always. Even the officially marked shared paths are seldom worth the risk of people who aren't paying attention because it's a pavement, or the chavvy mothers with their buggys who will actually make a virtue of blocking cyclists. I very seldom feel in any real danger from traffic, though I routinely ride on busy two lane roads with 60mph limits. I feel bad for those who feel differently, which is why I don't feel real anger towards those who are riding on the pavement out of fear, but trying to be respectful to other pavement users. I still think they're wrong.

Diode100

''Most statistics suggest that you are less likely to whacked if you are riding in the road in an appropriate manner than if you are on the sidewalk. '' - I find this difficult to comprehend, if yoy are not safe from motorists on the sidewalk, what chance have you got on the road ?

As to the case reported by the BBC the cyclist appears to have been on the road, not the pavement, he was riding very aggressively, and shouted at a group of people to get out of his way, its not clear if they were on the road or the pavement. Alas one of them, a young girl, was unable to get out of the way, and was struck at an estimated 17 mph, causing her to hit her head on the pavement, resulting in injuries from which she subesquently died. All parties seem to be in agreement that the cyclist had every opportunity to steer round the group of people, but he chose not to.