yangmusa

The Mrs and I are gearing up to do some bike camping. Probably not touring for now - we'll start small with overnight or weekend trips close to home, then see how we go when we have some more experience.

I finally bought a rack. As I've mentioned before, I didn't want the official R&M rack because it's fairly expensive and I don't need a rear rack on a daily basis. I considered various seatpost racks, and ended up modifying a Performance Bike Transit quick release rack to fit (see thread on racks for large seapost diameters).

As you can see from the pictures, I'm not planning to fit panniers on the back. They would fit, since mine are really low-tech and have a bungee that hooks on at the axle. And miracle of miracles, my size 12 feet don't hit the panniers either But from what I've read here and elsewhere it isn't generally a good idea to load the back of the Birdy heavily, so I'm trying to distribute the weight. We'll see how it works after the first overnighter! Food, stove, clothes on the front - tent, sleeping bag and mat on the back.

And finally, I also just got a R&M kickstand. It went on easily and sure makes it a lot easier to load the bike up without it wobbling around!

jur

The Birdy rack mounted with panniers suffers from a problem. It took me a while to figure out what the problem was.

I noticed after commuting for a while, that the side where I hang the pannier, the mudguard strut which also serves as pannier support, wears quite fast against the pannier. I thought it was just the pannier bouncing or something so I sleeved the strut with a double layer of black shrink sleeve which looked nice.

But shortly afterwards, the shrink sleeve was worn through! So I sleeved it with a thick piece of PVC hose, and even that shows signs of wear especially after the Kangaroo Island tour.

Then just a few weeks ago I realised the reason for the wear is, the rear wheel is suspended so moves WRT the pannier on the rack which is frame mounted. So the mudguard strut moves WRT the pannier and wears rapidly. My pannier now has in fact a hole worn in it where it contacts the strut with the sleeving.



So be wary for the front panniers which suffers from the same problem. The strut which is axle mounted, will rub against the pannier which is frame mounted. I have seen a recommendation somewhere (Birdyfreunde?) to bend the strut end inwards a bit or the end will damage the panniers.

pibach

What do you guys think of this 20" Birdy customization?


Source: https://www.loro.co.jp/custom/2008/04...monocoque.html
Does it require a special frame?
For folding it, the fork seemingly needs to be taken off.

Raxel

You can fit 20" 406 wheels to most birdy frames. (except some early ones)
And the fork shown is tyrell carbon fork for 406" wheels. Of course it does not fold, but most birdy owners around me doesn't fold front fork anyway.

Raxel

406 birdy being built...

pibach

I see. But then bottom bracket gets higher of course. The rigid fork compensates for that (a bit). It comes at the cost of no front suspension and not being able to quickly fold the handlepost. But this way you can fit an ahead and get a more stable front also more energy efficient when 'stand-n-hammer'. I would also expect this to be ~1kg lighter. Suitcase fold taking the fork out should still be possible. I am wondering why no more Birdys are modified this way as it is so straight forward.

Edit: I have another question here: Did anybody convert a Birdy to singlespeed or even fixed gear? Is it possible without chain tensioner? I now, the fold affects chain length but there are also single speed mods of for example Bomptons (the one from littlepixl is actually fixed gear with a tensioner), Bike Fridays NWT/PRP and Dahon Jetstreams.

energyandair

I need to replace the tires on my Birdy. The Marathon Racer on the rear laster a fair while but eventually failed by delamination of the tread from the belt along the mid line. The front tire appears to be headed the same way.

I would prefer to go lighter rather than heavier and it appears that my only current lighter option is the Kojak folding tire.

Its advantages appear to be:
- Slightly lighter (185 g vrs 260 g each)
- Higher load capacity (75 kg vrs 70 kg)
- Faster (smaller cross section and 115 psi vrs 85 psi)
- Easier to carry as a spare

For road use, possible disadvantages apart from extra cost appear to be:
- Will ride a bit harder (I expect suspension to deal with this)
- not as good for occasional dirt (This is infrequent and I can live with it)
- May be more susceptible to punctures but as both tires are Raceguard, perhaps not?
- May be hard to install and remove?

The biggest question in my mind is whether there would be difficulty getting the kevlar bead Kojak off and onto the 355 Birdy wheel to a degree that puncture repair would be a problem.

David

bhkyte

I had big problems with stevios, I found the only way I could fit them was as follows. Trial fiting them on to the wheel with out the inner to pre strecth them,enabled me to be able to fit them properly more easily later without nipping the inner tube. After they had been fitted and removed then a couple of times they removed ok. Don't know if this helps ,or if it relervant!

pibach

Yesterday I could test ride the Birdy of a friend. It was a Birdy Red with the new frame. OMG, what a difference to my Dahon Mu Sport. The Mu excels in practically all aspects. I was quite surprised because I expected much more from a Birdy. But the Birdy wheelbase is too short. It comfortably rides from A to B, no question. But Jumping curbs and agressively weaving through traffic ist not its task. The whole geometry does not allow for sportier ride. Plus 18" small wheels and smallish tires (but upgradeable to Big Apples). The suspension works, but makes the ride imprecise. No hands-free riding. Unfortunalely also the long handlepost is not as stiff as the one on the Dahon (its weakest part). Also parts selection is quite mediocre in comparison to the Dahon (with Nexus hub). Also folding, rolling and overall handling seems to bee different worlds. All together it still costs twice as much as the Dahon. I really don't understand why it gets so high reviews here. What am I missing?

Biont

This is interesting and in controversy with all I have read about Birdy and Dahon Mu. Especially I can understand what it means `The suspension works, but makes the ride imprecise` . I do not know how a full suspension bike would feel and I have my doubts however I thought it should be stiff enough to keep all the precision there while allowing some comfort. And `no hand free` is mentioned for Bromptons here and there. To make things worse Dahon's are criticized for low quality fittings and accessories (compared to Bromton, BF, Birdy etc).

Now I am between a Brompton Nano and a Birdy Hybrid or Birdy Bionx. And Birdy is in my lisyt just because it has the best ride quality reported. Unfortunately I have no chance to test any bike, none available where I live now and once I will one I will have it shipped overseas.

If Birdy ride quality is even near what you described then Brompton wins due to better folded shape and size. Could it be your weight and height?

yangmusa

Well, I had been avoiding replying to this, under the assumption that pibach is a troll. But since someone else is now considering not buying a Birdy based on pibach's one-ride testimony...

I've not ridden a Dahon Mu Sport, so I can't compare the two bikes. What I can say is that I don't recognize any of the criticisms listed, or at least not to the degree suggested. I find the Birdy to handle great in almost all aspects. I haven't tried riding it hands free, but it is completely stable riding with one hand for signaling, and handles high speed descending with confidence. I'm very happy to have suspension when descending fast on twisty roads with imperfect surfaces! I can tell the suspension is there, but don't find its effect on handling to be a problem in the slightest. That said, this isn't a bike to stand up and hammer sprints on - but I find it very rewarding and comfortable to sit and spin for long fast rides (50-60 miles no problem).

I would highly recommend the Birdy if you're looking for a folding bike that can also be comfortably ridden for long distances at similar speeds to a road bike. It doesn't fold quite a small as the Brompton, but still a fairly small and tidy package. People can and do ride very long distances on Bromptons, but it isn't known primarily for that use. It's too bad you are not able to test ride any of these bikes - it could well be the Dahon Mu is the best for you, but then it could be the Brompton or the Birdy...

Biont

yangmusa, thank you for your comments.
I did not vote against Birdy just because of one single bad criticism about it. It must be the reviewer's predilection or size that made him unhappy about it unless he was trolling. Mine was just a logical deduction "IF" Birfy ride is no good. I will commute 30 km a day, folding the bike once for a motorboat transit and sometimes for a bus ride back home if the weather gets nasty or I feel tired. Brompton is quite enough for my 43 year age. It folds small, light and cheaper than Birdy. Anyway Birdy is in the top of my list due to its reported ride quality (and looks as well ). Justifying the price tag is not easy though.

jur

I second this.

(pibach is not a troll but is known for his love for his Mu... )

What pibach probably experienced is that he is not used to a Birdy but very used to a Mu. So initial impressions could fall anywhere.

I haven't ridden a Mu but I have owned several Dahons and one thing is very clear: The Birdy quality is way above Dahon's. One quick comparison of the just the handlepost hinge will convince any naysayers.

pibach

I know this is the Birdy thread and people like this Bike. I was always eying on it, but before never had a chance to ride it. Maybe I had too high expectations? Maybe I would get used to it after time? Anyway, my impressions after this short ride was, yes, disillusioning. The Birdy's short base and small wheels felt wobbly, nervous, and riding it needs high concentration.

The Birdy has a strong main tube, where the Dahon has a hinge. Here I like the Birdy (and wish Dahon would go this route and make a truly robust folder available at commodity pricing). In other respects the Dahon quality is just fine regarding the frame and a lot better regarding the parts.
I like the Dahon handlepost hinge: i) it is nicely integrated and smooth. ii) opens/closes in a blink iii) relatively stable, mainly due to conical post shaping. iiii) VRO stem provides quite good lateral stiffness. Very strange that you rate the Birdy's handlepost above the Dahon's. Probably you have a different handlepost?

I think my surprise of the poor riding quality I experienced with the Birdy is due to the following:

a) I am quite tall and heavy (186cm, 95kg). The Dahon has longer wheelbase and more saddle to bar distance. That is the main factor.

b) I probably ride differently than most other folding bike owners? I come from MTB racing. I am an aggressive biker. Sometimes very fast around in town. The Birdy is not designed for this. The Mu isn't designed for it either. But it is quite similar to a BMX feel. It is surprisingly direct, agile, and fast around in town. I like this feel. Stand-n-hammer is no problem. Only I abstain from jumping stairs with the Mu (but hop front and lift back over curbs).

c) the Birdy's suspension didn't please me, particularly the front. It is not stiff. No real damping. It does bounce. It does pivot in the wrong direction (in contrast to other parallelogram suspensions such as the German A or Pacific Reach) giving a bad progression curve (diving effect when braking). It prohibits hands-free riding, which I do a lot on the Mu.

d) folding seems to be quite premature. The handlepost does not come neat towards the main tube. All together it is pretty much the same folded size as the Mu. Although the Mu is much longer (unfolded) and has bigger wheels. Folding speed is much faster with the Mu. Then you cannot wheel the Birdy. It does not stand stable when folded. Quick fold dosen't stand stable either. Rack needs to be unpacked when folding.

e) I have some important upgrades on my Dahon. Plattform pedals, MG1. And last but not least I have 2,35" wide Big Apples on my Mu. These account for a lot better overall ride.

yangmusa

Firstly - I hope I don't sound like a Birdy-zealot It doesn't bother me at all that you prefer your bike over my bike. As long as everyone finds something they are comfortable on, that's what matters.

I'm 194 cm, but only 80 kg. Don't know how that affects riding..

Hmm, that's odd, because what you are saying is precisely the opposite of what Reise & Muller have said about the design. The leading link suspension geometry means that braking forces and forward weight transfer cancel each other out during braking - counteracting brake dive. And my experience bears this out, even under hard braking I can't detect any brake dive.

The fold is difficult and fiddly compared to other folders. It took me a while to learn it and to consistently manage to fold without dropping the chain. I think it's worth it for a main frame tube with no hinge. I don't know what you mean about the rack though - the Birdy rack folds when the bike folds, I don't need to do anything to it. It just folds automatically. Maybe you mean that luggage cannot be left on the rack? Yes, that's true.

pibach

I think Riese & Müller is wrong here. These systems have been used in the 90th. Then replaced by systems where swingarm link is in front. These are more sensitive and better anti dive. The effect on the Birdy is minimal anyway, as overall travel is short. It works ok. But try a German A force Kilo (on Dahon Jetstream XP) and you will recognize the difference.

yes. I agree. Only the wheelbase should be longer. And it should have 20" wheels. More saddle to bar distance. And I would prefer it without front suspension.

yes, that's what I meant. It is nice that the luggage is partially suspended. But then, it conflicts with the fold. And the rear rack cannot handle heavy loads. That's the tradeoff.

jur

Now I have to take you to task here, because there are a number of inaccuracies...

I have posted a comparative geometry analysis of the Swift and the Birdy, and yes while the Birdy has a shorter wheelbase (than the Swift which has a typical roadie wheelbase) it is only marginally shorter. The Birdy's riding properties come from the entire frame geometry not *only* the wheelbase. Added to that, a wheelbase of around 1000mm is quite common to medium sized bikes. I don't know what the Mu wheelbase is, but even 1100mm does not make *that* much difference to ride quality in itself. Again, it is the whole bike geometry. You place too much emphasis on wheelbase, which, if you discount touring bikes, for the Birdy is average, not short.

Comparative Geometry - Birdy vs Swift [all dimensions in mm]:
Wheelbase: 1010 vs 1030 (longer is better?)
Effective top tube: both 550
Head angle: 71º vs 72º
Seat angle: 73º vs 72º
Trail: 63 vs 36
BB height: 290 both (depends on tyre width)
Stepover height: 535 vs 640
Chainstay length: 430 vs 410
Head tube length: 88 vs 125
rear dropout: 135 both

You must know about all the troubles the Dahon handlepost hinge gives. I have written a lot about it in the Dahon forums and here. The hinge is unreliable and there have been many reports of breakages. If kept tip-top by a knowledgable user, then the hinge is OK but for many average users it has given endless trouble. Denying it does not make it go away.

The closing mech of the Birdy is *far* more reliable and foolproof. By design it cannot self-loosen. The piece parts are much more robust. It is not for nothing that Dahon has abandoned the dodgy inside lock in favour of the outside V-channel which the Birdy has been using since the beginning.

The post is also conical like the Dahon's. Stiffness - by my experience there is no competition if you compare same length telescopic posts.

The opening/closing is just as fast as a Dahon's. Essentially exactly the same action.

I regularly stand and hammer my Birdy. The front suspension does bob, but does not necessarily waste energy - it largely disributes it over a pedal cycle. But this is a separate topic. And I trust the Birdy frame a lot more than the Mu's and Dahons in general of which there are any number of cracked frame reports.

The front suspension is adjustable both in stiffness (different springs) and damping (different elastomers inside spring). The pivot is exactly in the right direction - up and backwards largely along the axis of the steering. The braking is 'anti-dive' - the parallelogram is stretched open when braking, countering diving. This is determined on which arm of the parallelogram the bakes are mounted. Both leading and trailing link suspensions are commonly used, there is no clear advantage of one over the other, except in the leading link the brake placement is much easier.

Free-hands riding I concede - it is not possible at all with my Birdy but others have reported that it is possible. I think handlepost geometry may be the contributing factor.

No no no no.

The handlepost folds precisely down left of the main tube next to the rear wheel, bar parallel to the frame. The hinge angles are designed for it to fold in exactly that way. When folded, it holds the fold together naturally - no afterthought magnet kludges are needed to prevent the bits flopping all over.

Folding speed I would call same as the Mu - it depends how practiced you are. But there isn't anything in the fold that prevents a snappy fold. There is a youtube somewhere that shows how quick a practiced action is. But it is rather silly to argue about a difference of a few seconds - what are you going to do with those seconds? Gloat at other folding bike owners?

The Birdy can be wheeled on the front wheel if it isn't folded back. Fully folded I would agree. Personally I find the wheeling argument a bit silly. If I need to wheel my bike, I do so unfolded. Much easier and no extra hassle to fold it where you finished wheeling it.

It stands stable when folded - not sure why you make this claim. Fully folded it is designed to have 3 points on which to rest.

I commute on mine daily and I have a rack top bag; the folding action of the rack means the bag does not have to be removed when folding. The bag ends up sitting neatly in a vertical orientation behind the folded package. Half or fully folded it stands stable.

I don't think the Birdy is a perfect bike but it is streets ahead of any Dahon you care to throw at it. Except for price, but I am willing to pay for that sort of quality, you pay less in the long run.

energyandair

Here are a few thoughts
How much shorter and why is this a problem?

I agree on jumping curbs but mine is the best bike i've ever ridden for agility at speed in city traffic.

You are a tall guy and an agressive rider. I'm guessing that you were riding a Birdy with the 10 deg "comfort" stem. The Birdy comes with a variety of stems to suit different sizes and styles of rider. The 25 deg "sport" stem puts the handlebars more than 3" further forward and would be a much better fit for you. You can also get a straight pipe riser that accomodates standard mountain bike stems. The bike configuration can be as sporty or as laid back as the rider prefers.

A related point is that the suspension is quick and easy tp configure. The front comes with a medium/soft elastomer but a hard one is available. The rear comes with a medium elastomer that can be changed to soft, hard or extra hard.

If you want speed and agility in city traffic, you want narrower tires not wider. Maraton Racers are a lot better than the OEM tires that came with my Birdy Red. Kojaks are a lot better again.

Mine handles as though it was on rails but it was not nearly that good until I changed out the OEM tires. I agree about no hands free. As long as I have at least one hand on the bars, mine is quite stable. With two hands, it is also very precise

My fixed length sport stem seems solid to me, more so than the Dahon's I tried. More importantly, it stays that way without having to continually adjust the hinge. I'm guessing that you tried one that had an adjustable stem (they flex a bit. or a hinge that was not properly set up.

My Red was the bottom of the Birdy line and came with very basic parts. For equal quality components, I agree that Birdy's cost a lot more than Dahon's but components can be changed and I was prepared to pay for what I felt was a better design with superior comfort and proven longevity

The Birdy fold is not that intuitive and there is a definite learning curve. Once learned, it is quite fast, is quite a bit more compact than any single fold arrangemets I have seen (eg the Dahon's I looked at), It stays in the folded position when you handle it, and puts the chain to the inside which is a big deal for keeping chain oil away from the inside of your car, other luggage and other commuters. If the fold seemed bigger than your Dahon, I suspect that the Birdy was not folded correctly.
As for rolling when folded: It doesn't unless you get a rack with rollers. It is however relatively convenient to carry compared to most folders with good ride quailities

I wanted a single bike for: riding around town, longer trips in comfort, commuting, fast riding, pootling, fitting in a standard suitcase for air travel, fitting two bikes with luggage quickly into the trunk of an average car and good enough at all of these things that I wouldn't spend my time wishing I was on something else. The Birdy was the only bike that I could find that met all of these criteria.

David

Biont

I was in between 4 bikes, Mu, Tikit, Brompton and Birdy
Birdy
I have no chance to see them in a store let alone test them.
I have looked at websites, read forums and my impression for the best and worse aspects of each bike are as below :

Best aspects first:

Mu Price, standard components
Tikit Hyperfold, reported ride quality
Brompton Best folded shape and size, elegance, available accessories
Birdy Best design (it's a stunner ), best performance on various terrains, built quality, available accessories

Now the worse :

Mu Bland design (I know it's subjective), lack of vow factor, no specially designed accessories
Tikit Folded size ugly and unbalanced and big, reported flex
Brompton Not a good performer on all terrains, no sportier riding
Birdy Price, price, price !

I decided against a Mu because it did not pull a string in my heart. Even if it would be the best performer, the most quality built, the lowest priced (and that latter is true) , I would not care. A bike has to be loved since I will make love to it two times a day and it will be a long performance 15 km each way

I decided againt Tikit since I do not need extra 10 seconds or be that extra 30 seconds when folding/unfolding. Maybe I will miss a vehicle once in a year because of those seconds and who knows that vehicle would not have an accident later? We need to embrace life as it is and not push everything to be perfect anyway. Tikit is an handsome bike but I had mixed feelings and I know I do not need its special qualities.

I am thorn between Brompton and Birdy.
Though different, both won my heart by their design: I liked Bridy's hi-tech looks and expedition rack and built quality and good design; and I liked Brompton's elegance, understated, unpretentious looks that oozes quality.

For me a folding bike must fold in a neatest and smallest shape. Speed of fold/unfold may be 1 second or 1 minute I do not care. Brompton is excellent in that regard. Also its price compared to Birdy is far better as you know. However I would choose Birdy over Brompton if they were at the same price levels. So price, best folded size push me towards Brompton.

PS : I also intend to add an electric motor to the bike. Both accepts a kit. Birdy can be motorized on the back wheel by a Bionx 350 watt with unit on the expedition rack and it looks and performs exquisitely. Brompton can be motorized on the front wheel with a Nano 200 watt. I am OK with front wheel motor and Nano is nearly silent. Nano integration is easier and again lower priced. However both bikes are good with electric motor.

bhkyte

Actually there are more options available on a Dahon than all the other folded Bikes. For instance seatpost. You can use a standard seat post, a Dahon telescopic, a lightweight SPD beam, a Zorin seatpost/pump,a cane creek suspension seat post. There are also vastly more options for wheels, There is also a wide range of brakes,stems,handlebars. Standard rack bags can be fitted and the cick front bag system is widely compactable with other manufacters. Any Dahon dedicated bag?I wish I had a similar choice for my Mezzos!

bhkyte

1) Don't under estimate the birdie folding speed. IMO much faster then the Brompton. It has a beautifully designed seatpost clamp and stem hinge that operate faster than the brompton versions. Yes it is bigger,but if you opt to have the seat in a standard position rather than the typical forward the Brompton seat really sticks out, and if you require an extended post so does that. I strongly advise that you have a test ride as many people do not find they can get on with the brompton layout. I have never heard a compliant about the birdie, besides which there are more option customising the stem and risers,without compromising the fold.

2) What about a used Birdie? Personally I would always choose a used Birdie over a new Brompton as I feel the Birdie is much better value for money in comparative terms anyway. Another option is if you shop around for a used birdy and a used Brompton clone ,(MERC), you could have easily have both for the cost of a well-equipped new Brompton. Just a thought.

3) I personally found journeys on a Brompton a bit dull and slow,and less safe, all for a slightly more compact fold.

Biont

I forgot to mention that where I live, Mu P8 is sold in a unique configuration and they do not seem to carry accessories. I can get it overseas though. Brompton and Birdy, even the bikes are unavailable and I will have it shipped from Italy or USA.

bhkyte

What country are you in?

Biont

Istanbul, Turkey

We have Bike Fiday here, Tikit T on stock, others on order. And Dahon has 4 models here, Vitesse D7, Jack, Eco 3, Mu P8 fairly priced. Birdy and Brompton is nonexistent but I can get them from USA or Italy.

pibach

The wheelbase influences riding stability.

Here are the geometry details of the Dahon:

Dahon main tube length: 58cm
effective top tube: 63cm (horizontal distance of steering axle to seat post at seat high)
wheelbase: 103cm (Birdy has 99cm, as far as I know)
seatpost to handlebar distance: 63,5cm

My MTB (XL frame, 53cm) for comparison: 60cm, 62cm, 107cm, 74cm

yes, good point. I was wondering about the cramped saddle-to-bar-distance. Might have been a different impression on a "sport" variant. Can you provide the geometry to compare to the Dahon above?

I think the Birdy I rode has the "soft" elastomers. I probably would need the "hard" ones at my weight.

I agree that Racers and Kojaks are very good tires. But for the city a wider tire is preferable. We have a lot cobblestone here in Berlin, tram rails within the street, etc. I did several test. And surprisingly the Big Apples where considerably faster than Racers and even more compared to Stelvios. Unfortunately the Kojak is not available in 20"x2.0". With suspension you can go for slightly narrower tires, though.

yes, the fixed length sport stem should be more solid.
Same is true for the stem variants on the Dahon.
There are 5 types of stems:
a) telescoping (standard)
b) fixed length inside fold (Mu Uno)
c) fixed length outside fold with VRO stem (Mu SL, Sport, EX)
d) short fixed length outside fold (Jetstream P8)
e) short fixed length outside fold with VRO stem (Jetstream XP)

Most solid is e) as it is clampless and shorter. The a) flexes more and needs to be set to min extension and tightened carefully, then it is ok.

Dahon did a change in 2005 to their handlepost hinges. Older models' hinges are quite fragile. Then in 2008 they changed the hinges to an outside V-clamp technique, again giving some improvements in stability.
The >2005 Dahon hinges are very well engineered, have a closer look on them. BTW, they usually do not require any maintenance or re-ajustment.

I think many Birdy owners only know the cheap standard Dahon bikes.
But in comparison to a Birdy one would need to look at the premium Dahons, a Jetstream XP, for example (similar price as a Birdy light).

The Dahons have lifelong warranty on the frame. Their main hinge is a design compromise (also providing a lot of benefits), but much more robust than you might think.

Yes, my Dahon Mu Sport is 79x66x28 cm folded so slightly bigger than the Birdy (76x58x28cm). But not by much. Also suitcase fold (wheels out) is as compact, and both bikes fit into a airline legal Samsonite Oyster.

I have the same goals.
My Mu Sport does the job. But I have had a Mu SL before (got stolen, unfortunately) and this was even better.