EvilV

This is true. I once clocked a guy in an enclosed recumbent riding at 40 mph for miles along a dual carriageway road. I couldn't believe how fast he was going. The other impression I had was how much danger he was in riding this tiny yellow bean shaped thing down a road where the traffic's average speed was 70 mph. Some bored truck driver adjusting his CB or other entertainment device could run over him without even knowing he'd done it.

pm124

So, to conclude, I think it's fair to make the following statements (based on the assumption that SC's estimate reflects what we would see in a randomized controlled trial in which the rider was blinded to the bike she was riding):

1. Over a range of terrain, the Reach Racer (17lbs) is potentially about as fast as a 17lb road bike, but is less likely to be faster than an equivalent road bike and more likely to be slightly slower, rider position and tires being equal.
2. If you do not ever fold or pack your bike, a road bike is a better deal MPH for MPH than a folder. (Just not as cool.)
3. A separable Moulton is one of the best touring bikes there is, but is no good as a racing bike on varied surfaces. (Potentially not even on a flat.)
4. If you really want to go fast, get one of these.

Fair?

stevegor

Interesting thing happened at my LBS the other day which showed the ignorance about small wheels that seems to exist in LBSs.
My son is building a two wheel recumbent with a 406 front wheel. He wanted a Conti hp slick tyre so the bike mechanic tried to mount it on the rim while we were there.....guess what?
It took 2 mechanics to try and do it, with no luck AND they wrecked the rim with metal levers, also they mangled the tyre. So with the promise of a new rim and tyre we went home, only to get a phone call from the LBS to say they worked out why the tyre wouldn't go on the rim....wait for it...this is unbelieveable... The mechanic tried to tell me that the tyre was a 451 and it was too small for the 406 rim I had to expain to him that in fact both the rim and tyre were 406, and Contis can be hard to get on certain rims, then I had to inform him what a 451 size is. To top it off, I had to educate the LBS about Schwalbe Stelvio 406 tyres as another choice.

If it ain't 700c or 26 inch...it don't exist!!

EvilV

Soap really helps get small tight tyres on and off. I carry a tiny hotel shampoo bottle in my kit in case I have to deal with the problem on the road. Those guys must be unskilled gorillas to have wrecked a rim and tyre like that.

stevegor

Yes, but they're usually very obliging, so I'll forgive them. and they replaced both within 2 days, so that's good service.
Good idea on the shampoo bottle, might use it on my Jan 09 tour.

khearn

Shampoo also makes a very good hand cleaner. It's made for getting oils out of one's hair, and works just as well for getting oily dirt off of one's hands.

Keith

EvilV

Good point about hand cleaning.

On the mounting and dismounting tyres with soap, I can actually get my Merc tyres (which are pretty tight) back onto the rims with fingers alone. I know this is easy on some big ATB tyres, but on the 16 inch merc wheels you can't easily do that without soap.

jur

So far I am able to both remove and install all my bikes' tyres by hand only.

SesameCrunch

I'll bet you don't have any Continental tires...


I've had occasion for very colorful language and lots of scraped knuckles working with that brand .

jur

On the Swift I do. They are also easy. Is it the technique?

Here's mine. All steps are equally crucial:

1. Make sure the tyre is fully deflated by pressing down on the wheel while holding the valve open.
2. Press the tyre inwards all around so the bead falls into the well in the middle of the rim.
3. Pull one end of the tyre away from the rim radially outwards, while squeezing inwards all around to ensure the beads are properly into the rim's well. The bead where you are pulling should end up just proud of the rim side wall.
4. Force the bead where you were pulling it outwards radially, over the rim wall. No tools needed.

Step 3 can also be done by putting the wheel on the ground, starting at the top, squeeze the beads inwards while sliding the palms downwards forcefully over the tyre, until you end at the bottom with the same result of the beads being proud of the rim wall, allowing step 4.

Installing the tyre also requires the bead to be in the middle well, so the tube needs to be fully deflated. I usually inflate the tube, put it in the tyre, get in on the rim most of the way, then for the final bit deflate it fully to get the beads in the rim well.

I have stopped carrying tyre levers.

BruceMetras

I just put a Continental Grand Prix on the Rolf front wheel for my TSR.. no levers, just hands... not even any soap..haha... I like Jur's method, but I think there is some size discrepancy in different rims and tire combos as some seem to be a real b***h to install... here's a cute lever that works pretty well if you are looking for a lever, works on the same principle as an automotive tire machine.. Speed Lever

SesameCrunch

Jur: I see what you're saying. Get the tire's bead into the center, low part of the rim. I'll try that if I ever have the misfortune of another Conti tire :-)

Bruce: I got the Speed Lever because of the reasons stated above. I like it! Thanks,

edwong3

I had one of those, and it works like a charm. I liked the way it lifted the tire bead away from the rim so effortlessly. It made changing an inner tube fun

Edward

Pine Cone

Recumbents are fast on the downhills and flats, but in my experience I can't climb with one nearly as fast as a normal road bike or even a folder. The flaw with recumbents is the fact that you can't use any body weight to your advantage on a climb. It's all muscle without any benefit from gravity.

I put over 1000 miles on my Vision recumbent one year and never reached my 700c Cannondale road bike times on any hilly ride I did on both bikes. With the same level of fitness I am always fastest on my road bike versus either a recumbent with 16"/20" wheels or any folder I have ever ridden if hills are involved.

My Pacific Reach is close to 700c times, but I think the 700c tires have more options and lower rolling resistance. At the same level of fitness my commute times sort out by wheel size. 16" Downtube Mini is the slowest, followed by 20" DT VIIIH, followed by 20" Pacific Reach, then 26" wheel mtb or commuter bikes with the Cannondade 700c road bike always the fastest. Most days there is no practical difference, but for absolute fastest times on the same routes, I am fastest on a good road bike with good rolling tires.

I really like the small wheeled bikes and haven't even ridding the Cannondade this year, but years of riding the same route on different bikes indicates for me that I have never found a small wheeled bike that was consistently faster than a bigger wheeled bike.

As for the Moulton speed record, I think no one really cares about breaking the upright-bike-with-a-full-faring record. The newest human-powered records are around 80mph, with or without small wheels, while the Moulton record is about 51mph. Lots of recumbents have wheels smaller than 700c so it is hard to tell if wheel size has any importance at all, other that ultimately letting the vehicle be lower to the ground and have less frontal area and less wind resistance.

I like small-wheeled folders and have been riding them for over 30 years, but I never thought they were faster than all other bicycles. The real problem with small wheel speed is likely to be related to fewer tire choices more than anything else. I don't know about anyone else, but in the long run I am more interested in minimizing flat tires versus saving a couple of minutes each way on my commute. A flat really makes it difficult to maintain a good average commute speed.

BruceMetras

Do you still have the Reach Offroad model? what tires are you running?

maranen

This technique works for my Merc tyres too(Schwalbe Maraton Plus, Brompton Green). Great that you share.

Pine Cone

Still have the Reach Offroad, was running the stock Kenda's, but wore out the rear. I am debating between replacing them with the belted Stelvio's or a Maxis knobby, forget which model.

Given that they will start sanding the roads around here soon I'm leaning towards the knobbies.

jur

There you go spoiling all our innocent fun.

I would be surprised if small wheels were really faster. From a purely physics perspective I don't see how they can be. Added to that, tests are usually done on small drums so invalidates the results. But it is so hard to compare... a bike adds so many parts to the mix, that the best one can say is that one bike is faster than another. I think it would be very hard indeed to extract a wheel's component from the mix.

jur

It can look like magic... while someone is still fumbling for their tyre leves, I can have the tyre and tube off in a wink, asking innocently, "right, where's your spare tube?"

BruceMetras

As well as the Maxxis DTH knobby, there are a few Kenda offerings in 451 as well as the slickish Primo Comets in 1 1/8 and 1 3/8 (451 speak).. the Stelvio is a nice fast tire which I'm still trying to wear out on my Reach..

makeinu

Well, smaller wheels clearly have to be more aerodynamic. However, if you want to describe a separate process (ie rolling resistance) then to some extent you're really telling the answer before you even ask the question. I think this picture of the forces attributed to "rolling resistance" is quite instructive:

It's easy to see that if all the forces are the same and the wheel is smaller then it will get more stuck on its own bump (the dimple the weight is creating). So, like I said, by defining rolling resistance so specifically we're really giving the answer before asking the question.

However, the trick, I gather, is that if there is a suspension then the dimple could be smaller and if a small wheel somehow eliminates some of the compromise in using a suspension so that the dimple shrinks more than the wheel shrinks then the net effect would be less rolling resistance.

So I could see how a small wheel could be faster, but the point is moot because nearly everything in cycling seems to boil down to the interaction between the body and the machine. For example, Pine Cone points out that you don't have gravity to help you on a recumbent...well gravity can't add any energy to the mix, so the only way that could matter is if the body, the muscles, and the brain don't like working against gravity.

Show us a video, jur. I've purchased just about every tire removal gadget on the market and still can't manage to get my tires off without a few hours of blood and sweat.

I tried your trick too, but there doesn't appear to be much of a well to go into, or the bead won't go into it, or if it does it doesn't seem to make any slack.

jur

makeinu: You make some good points especially regarding choosing a method for rolling resistance analysis which pre-determines the answer. But perhaps what I am thinking about is mainly determined by tyre deformation.


regarding the tyre removal, I haven't tried to make and post a video, but I'll give it a go. I have actually thought about it before as well.

invisiblehand

On which bike Makeinu? My personal experience is that the smaller the tire, on average, the harder it is to mount a tire. Although I have never worked on a tire smaller than 16".

pm124

OK, here is my 2 cents.

Tires: On my 349s and 355s, the tires go on and come off easily unless there is a blip of inner tube under the bead. The Brompton Green tire, which should be slow as hell, seems to roll as well as the Stelvio when pumped to 100 PSI. It's a lot more durable and puncture resistant, so that's what I use.

Speed: I ride on flat, hard surfaces 90% of the time, and for whatever reason, the Birdy is very fast. If there is higher rolling resistance, it may well be somewhat offset by better wheel aerodynamics. My stock 355s have an effective spoke count of 12 relative to a 700cc bike. I wouldn't be surprised if a power meter showed that the bike was actually slower than it seems to be.

sqynt

I think this has more to do with the rim in question more than tire size. The depth of the center channel relative to the lip height, will have more impact than anything else. Differences between tires should be limited to the amount of rubber extending past the tire bead since the circumference of the bead should be the part that's standardized.

Look at the diagrams that I lifted from the Alex rim website. Both are 406 BMX rims. Which do you think would be easier to put tires on? The deeper the center channel is, the more clearance the tire will have on the other side of the rim to pull over the lip.