ro-monster

I'm about to join the fold! I'm in the process of purchasing my first folder, and am torn between two bikes:

1. A 2007 (or maybe 2008) Pacific Reach Road that is the shop's floor model, and thus available at a discount. They will swap out the existing drop bars for flat bars, with new brake levers, shifters, etc. I've ridden this bike and it seems to fit me well. It's got a model-specific rear rack that looks a lot nicer than a standard add-on, and the shop will fit fenders. Possible downsides are the 451 wheels; and the fact that it has a front derailleur, which it's likely that I will rarely use; and a few dings in the paint from being the floor model. The suspension is a point in its favor, particularly as I've read it gives increased stability under hard braking.

2. A Bike Friday Air Glide I had them spec out for me. I had to keep this pretty basic in order to be able to afford it at all. I wanted to have the SRAM Dual Drive but that put the price out of my reach, so instead I settled on an 8-speed configuration with mainly low to midrange gears, as I never go very fast anyhow. I've never ridden an Air Glide, of course, but the shop owner may be able to arrange a ride for me, as he knows someone who has one. I have seen one in the flesh once, a couple of years ago on the train -- that was when I fell in love with it. The only real downsides to this bike are the price, and maybe having to protect the steel frame from corrosion.

I know that neither of these is a proper folding bicycle, and that's fine with me. I don't anticipate needing to fold the bike unless I travel with it, but the small wheels will make it easier for me to get the bike onto Caltrain. My existing bike has 700c wheels and I can't quite lift it high enough to clear the train steps. (Yes, I'm short!)

This bike would be used for general transportation, often ridden with groceries, lunch, extra clothing, etc. in the panniers. I'd like to try a bit of touring at some point too. Of course I'm aware that a cheaper bike would be more than adequate for my needs, but these are the two that just captured my heart!

Can you guys offer any input to help me make a decision?

jur

Seems the Reach will be better suited for your needs from the 2nd last paragraph. The front derailer will be used if you go touring. Don't view it as a negative.

Just be aware that the Reach cannot fold with mudguards fitted, at least not a front one.

ro-monster

Can you explain your thinking in a bit more detail?

Abneycat

Personally, I would disagree on some points. The touring geometry of the Air Glide will make it a very good general purpose bike (along with touring!) and the beam design is very comfortable to ride on for long distances. The AG uses a lot of standard componentry and things that are easy to find, like 406mm tires, making it decent if you want to go on an international tour at any time.

Jur is certainly right about the derailer I would believe though. You want to have a good gear range with fairly even spacing to enjoy tourings many loaded ups and downs. I would certainly recommend that if you were to look at the AG, consider seeing if you can squeeze a double or triple into the budget. Bike Friday has some very modest but serviceable and quality triple cranks onto some of their bikes that are not pricey at all.

Given the price of the bikes you're looking at buying and the uniqueness of them both, I really think you should get that test ride for the AG hooked up, and go take it for a good long spin - get to really have a feel for how that beam design is, and whether you're in love with the ride or just the looks. See if you can get some more ride time with the Reach. They're both great bikes, I wouldn't discount either one right away.

ro-monster

The front derailleur thing is more of a personal quirk. I certainly wouldn't mind extra gears, I just don't like the mechanism itself. I've only owned two bikes that had derailleurs, but while I could shift the rear with no problem, I never could manage to shift the front smoothly on a consistent basis. And with the riding I'm doing right now, I am only using the middle chainring (current bike has a triple). Bike Friday assured me that it wouldn't be hard to retrofit more gears at some point in the future, also.

kamtsa

One more point for your consideration. In the US, BF support is second to none.

I don't have experience in other countries.

Kam

BruceMetras

The Air Friday uses 451 wheels/tires, just as the Pacific Reach does .. As anyone who owns a Reach will point out, they are a very comfortable, confidence inspiring road machine.

Also, the Air Friday uses caliper brakes, which would limit the permissible width of tire. The Reach has bosses for V-Brakes as well as caliper.

ro-monster

You're right about the Air Friday using 451 wheels, but the Air Glide is a slightly different model (based on the same frame, I think), and does use 406 wheels with V-brakes.

BruceMetras

My mistake, thought we were talking Air Fridays .. the Air Glide would be a nice choice..

msincredible

Hi ro, nice to see you here! *waves hi*

If you had poor quality components on those two bikes, or if they were in poor shape, I wouldn't be surprised. Also triples are in general more difficult to shift than doubles or compact doubles.

Will the shop let you test ride the Reach? Then you can see how well it would behave.

jur

Front derailers are quirky - they have to be adjusted precisely or will result in poor shifting. Also, they cannot shift under load. So technique as well as adjustment bring good shifting performance.

jur

The Reach comes with a rack that will take panniers, and that rack actually folds up with the bike. It's a valuable addition.

jur

Just one thing about the Reach - my wife's Reach developed quite a lot of play in the front suspension system which I had to treat with ingenuity to get nice and tight again. That said, she rides it on rough places on a weekly basis. There are no reports of other owners about the same thing AFAIK.

Foldable Two

Jur - a NEW acronym!!! AFAIK - assuming it's "As Far as I Know". (Obviously I don't Twitter.)

RE: the Air Glide

Seems a little too visible (i.e., stands out too much) to be a good city bike. Just our basic Fridays - and folders in general - are different enough. The AF's "beam" sets it apart even more.

The Pacific Reach, on the other hand, looks a little more "normal".

Lou

ro-monster

Hi to you! Nice to see you too!

Poor quality components could be part of it. My present bike is decently made, but definitely a basic no-frills model.

I did take the Reach for a ride, though it was pretty short.

ro-monster

It's not anonymous, that's for sure! And it is something I'd be concerned about, but less so now that I'm not actually living in the city. When I moved here in September, I was taken aback to discover that the customary way of locking up bikes, even nice ones, was one skinny little cable.

invisiblehand

Talk to a Bike Friday representative about finding an Air Glide to test ride. Often there are owners that are willing to demonstrate the bike for you. Alternatively, post something on the Bike Friday Yak group.

If you are vertically challenged, chances are that your best fit is going to be different than the population average. Consequently, you might benefit a lot from the custom fit of a Bike Friday. If you are planning on using the bike for touring and don't need a top end, you could get about with a compact crank and a 11-32 cassette on the rear. Note that you don't need a long cage (SGS) rear derailer but you would benefit from a MTB rear derailer with a medium cage (GS). You could stick with a double which is often easier for casual cyclists to use. It would be a relatively simple drivetrain that should be less expensive than the Dual Drive.

If you are going to use this for errands, you might want to think about how you are going to lock the bike. Personally, I have never ridden an Air Glide nor a Pacific Reach. It may be the case that one bike is better suited for being left on the street.

kamtsa

Can anybody comment about the difference between the two configurations:

1. Having the suspension between the wheel and the frame (Reach, Birdy, Downtube, etc).
2. Having the suspension between the frame and the seat (AG, Thudbuster, etc).

Are the two equivalent or is one superior to the other?

Thanks,

Kam

jur

I think the question needs qualifying.

There are really 2 sorts of suspension, (with everything in between); one is small movement and really only meant for taking the edge off bumps, while the other is meant to absorb big hits. Folding bikes (with the exception of the Rhino) are really of the 1st kind, a bit of movement meant to take off the edges to compensate for small wheels' harshness penalty if you use high pressure tyres.

Assuming this is the aim of small wheel suspension, then there is little to choose. What remains is one's preference and the design quality. Damping is important; it can be quite debilitating to start bouncing in the saddle when beginning to pedal a bit faster. So this places rubber before pure springs. The Air glide's bar fills me with doubt. I can't see that it would be well damped at all.

I have tried both types of suspension. With a Thudbuster, there is an initial squishy feeling but one quickly gets used to that and then the Thudbuster really works very well. But having the suspension closer to the wheel (read less un-suspended mass) then bumps are absorbed better. Here I have the Mini, Birdy and Moulton. I would say they are quite similar, with the Mini's boingy spring replaced by rubber. The Mini's seatpost is still a bit too springy. And one day I rode the Mini with Thudbuster, that didn't work at all.

ro-monster

Thanks, everyone, for your informative and interesting responses! I'll be out of town for the next couple of days so I may not get back to this thread until later in the week.

Abneycat

Jur, yes. The Air Glide, and similarly designed beam bikes can have a little bit of bounce if you go off a bump hard enough. The design doesn't tend to bob while pedaling, but it can have a stiff rebound.

Contrastingly, the beam also provides more dampening against road vibrations. The suspension response is fairly crude for the moment you may hit a bigger bump, but it provides an additional measure of comfort down the asphalt, much like how fat tires like Big Apples take the buzz off the road. Its sort of a trade off.

Beam bikes were somewhat popular for triathlon riders for a while, although due to various things like regulations and technological improvements, they're pretty much extinct. I think the design sitll has merit on the Air Glide, given the benefits it would provide to help offset the smaller wheelsize.

1. Bicycles suspended at the frame provide additional benefit over rough terrain, as the wheels are better able to conform to irregularities, giving the rider more control and losing less energy.
If the whole bicycle is suspended, then the rider will experience comfort benefits at all contact points (at the bars, the pedals and saddle).

Downsides? Good suspension can be expensive, and mediocre / poorly adjusted suspension can bob quite a bit, robbing the rider of energy.
Additional weight, and additional mechanical complexity may require more frequent servicing. This can vary, as some designs are very simple, while others are very complex and fickle.

2. Rider oriented suspension (Thudbuster, etc.) provides comfort in the related area. They can be relatively cheap, and are easy to install, working on nearly any bicycle. In some circumstances, may provide a degree of control by helping to keep a portion of the rider's weight suspended.

Of course, having your saddle suspended will not really help your hands when you hit a pothole, and will not help you stay in control of your bicycle as it traverses rocks and other obstacles like having a bicycle with front or full suspension will. But, most people aren't taking their Downtubes out for XC riding i'd imagine, and full suspension is certainly not necessary for mundane road riding.

ro-monster

I got my new Reach today! I was offered a used one at a good price, and decided to go with it. It looks brand new though! I haven't had a chance to really try it out yet. I'll probably make a few minor changes to it (well, besides the addition of fenders, mirror, and lights) after I've had a chance to ride it for a while. Here's a pic!

msincredible

Very nice, congrats!

gnome

Very nice.

Folding-Bikes

Welcome to the team! The Reach is a great bike! Done any mods yet? First thing I did was cut the seatpost (I didnt need it that long) and the cylinder thing under the stem (I like to be sat forward in the bike)

Let us know how it goes!