Sixty Fiver

Let's start with some simple physics... chucky should be taking notes in case there is a quiz.

Friction is defined as the force resisting the relative lateral (tangential) motion of solid surfaces, fluid layers, or material elements in contact.

The purpose of lubricants on a bicycle chain are to provide a thin fluid layer to reduce friction between moving parts and when it comes to moving parts, a bicycle chain has more parts than an entire bicycle. Without this fluid layer friction between these moving parts increases and decreases efficiency of the drive system.

Being oil based, chain lubricants also provide a protective layer against moisture which causes chain to rust which also increases friction and wear.

With a derailleur equipped bicycle the chain rarely runs in a straight line and only does this in three positions, every other gear selection causes the chain to run with some degree of deflection which pushed the chain against the cog and chain ring teeth... this adds to the level of friction in the drive and increases drive train wear.

A drive with a single chain ring and cog is more mechanically efficient as there should be no deflection and as the chain always runs in a straight line wear is reduced and with an internal hub one can maximize the efficiency of the engine by selecting a gear that optimizes their output and ability.

Because derailleur systems have a wider gearing range than most internal gear hubs they are better able to maximize the output of the rider even though they may be mechanically less efficient.

Friction is a wonderful thing as although it causes some things like chains and cogs to wear out it also makes our brakes work and allows our tyres to adhere to the road through something called adhesive friction.

Friction... it's everywhere.

stevegor

Chucky knows all about friction.........

chucky

Between the two of us I think you've made it quite clear which one is charmless. Don't you think?

Fail.

The first rule of scientific analysis is to observe what actually happens before you start blathering on about how it works. Your explanation of why lubrication is needed fails to address the basic observation that it's not needed. So the best that one can conclude from your reasoning is that friction must not be important in this application and that all your droning is, in fact, nothing but an irrelevant waste of time.

Start again from the top, this time using actual observations of the physical world to direct your analysis.

EAPellow

I have a bike that I'm cleaning up after someone let it sit outside under a deck for a few years. The chain is so badly rusted that it won't bend in most places and actually pulls the rear derailleur forward until the tension in it snaps the chain through the rollers.

I WISH someone lubricated it before letting it fend for itself against the elements. (You know, water+oxygen on metal = iron ozide = rust =nonprotective surface oxidation that will continue to spread through the metal = eventually, no more metal, just iron oxide dust.)

And sure, scrubbing the bit of rust on my locked up chain will temporarily free it, but the newly cleaned surface is more susceptible to the formation of surface rust than a factory-smooth metal.

May I suggest we begin a scientific analysis of of how far this thread is getting from its original intended point? Perhaps we can start by asking if anyone has kept an accurate tally?

chucky

Oh I don't think we're too far off track. Look you just noted how fragile and ineffective your derailleur is under low maintenance:

EAPellow

Specifically, lack of maintenance without being ridden. For several years at least. And I was offering a hyperbole example, hinting at the fact the rust destroys metal, and lubrication, by being hydrophobic, will maintain the integrity of said metal by preventing oxidation.

invisiblehand

The Journal of Human Power (either 50, 51 or 52) referenced earlier had an article on this.

kamtsa

Don't confuse 'has benefit' with 'needed'.

chucky

And a week later I still can't get that granny off. I believe it's a self extracting crank, which means any socket wrench should do the job, but I haven't been able to get it to budge; probably thanks to some derailleur loving pro bike mechanic torqueing the hell out of it.

There is neither according to the experimenters in issue #50 of the ihpva journal.

In my experience the only benefits of chain lubrication are that:
1. It enables that barbaric and ill considered monstrosity known as a derailleur to limp along instead of being aborted as a stillbirth and replaced by a proper gear system.
2. You don't get called a charmless bucket of vile, a sociopath, an ass ****er, or a troll by the classless mindless stone cold morons which compose the majority of the cycling community.

stevegor

Can you feel the LOVE my brothers and sisters?

CAN YOU FEEL THE ?

AEO

the other option is the crank falls off while riding and the tapers become squashed. Forcing you to buy a new crank arm.

Sixty Fiver

I have observed that you seem incapable of performing a maintainence task that would take me 5 minutes... you may have to enlist the services of someone who actually does this for a living and knows what they are doing.

invisiblehand

I can't remember the details; but I assume that you removed the crank bolts and there must be something wrong with the extractor threads. (I've never heard of a case where the regular Park Tool removal tool failed otherwise ... although you could be the first)

You could just remove the bolts and ride around the block a few times. The crank should loosen. But just be careful ... the crank could just fall off with your butt following it. I did this once after chatting while removing a crank once. Since I was paying little attention I screwed up the threads. Nonetheless, I could still get the crank off with a little care with the above method.

kamtsa

Ok, I printed it and will take a look. What's next? The earth is not flat?

bhkyte

There is always the hammer+ buy new crank arm approach.

kamtsa

Chucky, I am looking at the "On the efficency of Bicycle Chain drives" article at page ?? of hp50-2000.pdf here https://www.ihpva.org/hparchive.htm

1. Where do you see efficiency comparison between non lubed and lubed chain? Table 2 shows only comparison between different lubes.

2. It seems that the article deals only with meticulously clean chains. Nothing about the affect of road dirt, dust, rain, etc. These real life conditions can significantly affect the results..

3. I don't see anything in the article about the lube affect on chain and cogs longevity. The experiments where done over a short time (few hours) with clean and presumably new chains and cogs.

BTW, the setup of the experiment is very impressive. I am also delighted to see that in Table 2 White Lighting compares well with other lubes (e.g. 8.9% loss at 60RPM compared to 7.4% with Pedro's Syn Lub and 91.% with Castrol Dry Lub).

Kam

chucky

Except I have found in most cases what people do for a living is often what they're least capable of doing well. Don't you know it's easier to convince someone you've done a good job than actually do a good job? Moreover, don't you know it's more profitable to hire incompetents? Don't you watch the news which proves these facts?

Anywho I got it off with a longer wrench. Then I went to the bike shop to pick up some gear cables and walked right out after I saw the professional idiots weren't up to the task of cutting cable properly. Maybe it was you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

No I couldn't get the crank bolt off...but I got it by attaching a vice grip to the end of my wrench for more leverage. I didn't want to do this for fear of stripping the bolt, but in the end I had no choice thanks to the "diligence" of "someone who actually does this for a living and knows what they are doing", no doubt.

Yeah, but if I told you what happens in the real world snafu would call me an ass ****er again and I'd probably be banned. So It must remain an academic curiosity so the professionals like 65er can continue perpetuating their idiocy. They have to because their livelihoods depend on it.

Here's a novel idea: Why not try your own real world experiment and draw your own conclusions? I have.

Sixty Fiver

chucky

^^^
What did I tell you kamtsa?

stevegor

Brothers and sisters, I ain't feelin' the love right now.....

I wanna feel the

What we all need is a

stevegor

Insert appropriate BF member's name ...........

Sixty Fiver

I stand by my previous assessment.

fietsbob

Ok, back to just voting on folding bikes and French vs British gear mechs.

I had a Sturmey AW3 in my Brompton, when I got it, used.
And I added a Schlumpf mountain drive crankset to get 3 more, low range, ratios.

Do I get 2 votes? .. for 2 planetary gear mechanisms on one bike..

Show me a front derailleur that will shift a 50t - 20t double chainring set,
particularly when the momentum, uphill, drops ..

chucky

Just because I'm angry and bitter that doesn't make me a troll. It's my honest opinion which I hold quite passionately because I'm sick and tired of being disparaged by people who "know better" than to recognise the pure and simple facts.

The entire global economy is entering into a depression thanks to the dishonesty and incompetence of nigh the entire global workforce. Apart from people like Bernie Madoff and Tony Hayward, you, sir, are the problem. I should know because I make my living off the mistakes of "experts" in fields which I have no formal training whatsoever.

stevegor

Chucky is not all bad, maybe a bit misunderstood, but generally a fairly likable person with some strong personal views..... views that I might not agree with, but that's what makes diversity so interesting.

Are IGH better or do Defailures get the vote?
My personal view is that they are BOTH equally as good depending on the application. I use both, I like both.

I think the MOST important point is.......We are all getting our butts off the sofa and out on the bikes, that's FANTASTIC