fed up with 451s
 

I bought my (first) Swift from a guy who had upgraded it with drop bars and an improved (Capreo) drivetrain. brifters won't drive the stock v-brakes, so he used sidepulls, which won't reach 406 rims, so he put 451s on the bike. he sold me on these rims as faster.

many miles later, I'm not convinced. moreover, I'm frustrated by the lack of tire options, the difficulty of finding presta-valve tubes at the LBS, etc. I've broken two spokes on the 451s but none on the 406s (could be coincidence I suppose). I also miss the power of the v-brakes at times. plus, I've got a matching set of 406 Marathons and Marathon Winters on my flat-bar Swift that I'd love to use on my drop-bar Swift. not a huge fan of the Primo Comets on my 451s.

unfortunately my sidepull brakes are just barely too short for the pads to rest on the 406 rims. so what are my options? I can think of a couple of possibilities.

1. get a set of V-brakes for the drop-bar folder and use the TravelAgent hack to drive them from the brifters (a new Tiagra set). I've heard mixed reviews on TravelAgent though.

2. find a set of extra-long-reach calipers so I can place the brake shoes to grab the 406 rim. I currently use Tektro R556, and but it looks like the 984 would be long enough.

either way, I need to get a 406 rear wheel built with a Capreo hub. Harris Cyclery will do that for a not-outrageous sum.

thoughts on the two options above, or is there a possibility I'm missing? in a perfect world I'd get a carbon fork with a disc brake mount and not worry about the back brake :-)

For brakes you could use calipers, as used on cyclo-cross. These will mount on the V-brake bosses but their pull matches brifters'.

Perhaps we need a survey of 451 tyres. I have not been short of choices. I have them from knobbly 1-3/8" to slick in 1-1/8". The racing BMX crowd have quite a good range for treaded, while for slicks there are Schwable Duranos, Panaracer Minits, Primo Comets, and I'm sure I forget a few plus not mention lots.

thanks, centerpull cantis will do the trick. I should have thought of that.

and yes, there are 451 out there but no studded I could find. and I've had bad luck with primo comets (flats, bulges). love my marathons and marathon winters but they are 406 only

I can relate to this frustration - I've ran 406's, 451s and 520s, all on drop-bars. I've raced the swift on 451 and 406 and overall the 406's were faster.

V-brakes are ace but a well-set up pair of road calipers (decent brake blocks, keep rims clean) should provide all the stopping power any of us need. I've also ran travel adjusters and there worked find for me. I run v-brakes in the rear with travel adjusers but I don't actually use the gearing on them - i just use them in 1:1 mode as a smoother way to get the cable to turn the corner. This means I have to pull my dura-ace levers twice as far but that gives more power, and there is enough travel in the levers for this to work fine.

For me, the reason I now run 406 wheels is all down to tire choice. I love kojaks for racing, and Marathon Racers are nearly as fast but a lot more durable. I run both of these tubeless for even lower rolling resistance and less flats. If schwalbe made the Kojaks in 451 I would probably run 451s again just cos it helps on the gearing, and I would hope they would also roll slightly better. In reality I think 406's have been faster for me than 451s is because the tires I use on them are better that the 451 tyres I've tried (only the duranos, perhaps IRC or comets would be better).

Spokes will break on any wheel. One factor is the bumps you ride over and the speed you do it at. Another is the volume and pressure of the tires and how much suspension they give - narrow tyres run at high pressure will stress the wheel when you're riding fast over bumps/potholes. Depending on all those factors you need a wheel strong enough to cope and this is impacted by the number of and quality of spokes you have. I have broken many spokes on my swift on my Uriel 520 and Kinetix pro 406 wheels - the common factor is fewer, paired stiff spokes. I've never broken any spokes on the stock wheels or my 24-spoke 451 wheels which have even spacing and regular spokes. Sounds like your 451 wheels are just not strong enough for the way you ride and you could get a 406 wheel built up with the same problem if you're not careful.

thanks Ricky. I'm a fattie & so need all the stopping power I can get. thus I also run my tires full inflated, so I get lots of bumps from the road and probably do more damage to the 451 b/c I can't find wide tires with high psi. the Marathons are 1.5" with max 100, which are fabulous but only 406.

can I ask what you mean by "don't actually use the gearing" on the travel adjusters? What do you use in the front, centerpulls? why not travel agent in both places? this is now the decision I'm wrestling with. also, I read somewhere about the new Shimano STIs having more travel - which sounds like the case with your DA. I have brand new Tiagra shifters, obviously not in the same league but I wonder whether they might have enough travel to drive V-brakes by themselves...

<btw, I have to say this is an awesome forum>

Travel adjusters are a gear for your cable - they make the cable at the caliper end move twice as far as the cable at the lever end. There's an inner wheel and an outer wheel - the lever end is moving the inner wheel and the cable is threaded through the wheel to pull the caliper via the outer wheel. You can bypass the gearing effect by running the cable straight round the outside of the outer wheel.

One the front I use a caliper brake. I run an airnimal chameleon carbon fork at the front which is made for 520 wheels and no caliper is long enough to stretch to a 406 (and there's no v-brake or disc mounts) so I've built a bracket to attach to the fork's brake mount and create a new brake mount lower down, from where I run a standard road caliper. It's simpler than it sounds - the bracket is just a couple of thick tie-bars running vertically with an aluminum block at the bottom exactly the same length as the original brake mount with a hole drilled down the middle. The fork saves a lot of weight and when I run my 406 kinetic pro wheels (less than 1kg a pair) the bike is very light (but I have to avoid potholes!).

I've had good results using so-called "mini" v-brakes with road brake levers on my cyclocross/allrounder bike.

My setup is a pair of Tektro RX5 mini-v's with Sora 8-speed brifters, in combination with soft Koolstop "Salmon" brake pads. I run either 35c turf knobbies offroad, or 35c touring tires on-road. I also occassionally run fenders with the touring tires and have no clearance issues other than a slight rubbing of the brake boot on the rear fender.

Now Tektro themselves recommend a linear-pull (pulls more cable) lever with the mini-v's, but I've had no problems with the above setup.

I should also mention I'm right at the Clydesdale borderline at 202 lbs :o

Just a couple of caveats. The brake pads have to be set close to the rims due to the shorter cable pull of road vs. v-brake levers, so you have to keep your rims fairly true to prevent the pads rubbing. As a result of the pads being closer to the rims, you may not be able to easily release the brake noodle when removing the wheels. I use a brake noodle with a built-in barrel adjuster backed out about a third to allow more cable slack when removing wheels with large-ish tires.

Well, I tried some cantis but not much grab on the rims. maybe a professonal could adjust them better but don't want to be at th mercy of the LBS.

Just put a pair of mini-Vs on. They look great, but the problem is that the bosses on the Swift are low enough that the tire doesn't really clear them. wth my studded tires, the noodle clamp actually drags on the studs when I brake. and no hope of putting fenders on.

so it looks like TravelAgent or just gve up.

Well, I tried some cantis but not much grab on the rims. maybe a professonal could adjust them better but don't want to be at th mercy of the LBS.

Just put a pair of mini-Vs on. I'm not too encouraged. the front one rubs on the tire - if the bosses were even 2mm higher it would be ok. and the back has lttle or no grab. oh well. i guess I can try cantis again or travel agent

For your enjoyment...pics of my upgraded Swift are below.
Some notable changes:
451 "speedmax" wheels from thorusa
tiagra sti shifters (I had sitting around :))
105 rear derailleur
ultegra crankset
kcnc lite wing seatpost
vuelta 60t chainring
tektro cr720 cantilever brakes w/ "v-brake extenders" from thorusa


http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=232014http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=232013http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=232012

beauty. have a very similar setup - same shfters, derailleur, similar (105) crankset.

so how are the cantis? I put an avid shorty ultimate on front and it just wouldn't grab enough for my liking. you able to pedal with those wide brakes in back?

Does the 60t chainring come near the chainstays? I have an 82t chainring. Unfortunately, it rubs the chainstays and can't be used. I have thought about putting on a 65t or 73t from a recumbent (sold at Hostel Shoppe). I replaced the stock chainring with a 56t on the outside and mounted a 39t on the inside. I then got a 41mm pipe and pounded the clamp of a front derailleur to fit the outsize seat tube and mounted the shifter on the seatstay just above the derailleur. Pretty simple and it works great. With a larger chainring, I would probably put an idler pully at the back end of the cage to maintain the trapezoid when shifting from one chainring to the other. Sheldon Brown says a 69t chainring will match gear inches with a 700c wheel with a 53t, so my Swift can do major road riding. I have gone on a 300 mile trip with my current modifications and came back only slightly more tired. I replaced the rear cassette with an 11-32t 8 speed. David

Where do you guys buy these humongous chain rings?
I want to have a 65t for my Nova.

I have 1/3 inch clearance from the chainring to the chainstay. With bigger chainrings you also have to worry about chain /seatstay clearance near the cassette area. Do a thread search on that.

The canti's don't grab so well on my setup either, but it was a compromise I was willing to make. My feet are very close to hitting the canti's and I do occasionaly strike them but not when I'm in my normal rhythmic pedaling motion.

humongous chainrings
 

Hostel Shoppe sells recumbents and they also sell special chainrings--65t and 73t. There is a website, <http://www.ihpva.org/Builder>, which has plans you can download for a 72t, 82t, 92t chainring.

Anyone know how you can get disc brakes on a Swift? This bike shop seems to carry them ($140 more than their starting price), for steel framed Swifts (so not the Xootr branded ones).

http://hpm.catoregon.org/?page_id=214

That's seems to be the easiest way (having HPM do up a frame / fork with the disc fittings attached).

The Xootr frame is aluminium, so getting mounts attached to the rear is going to be tricky. The Xootr fork is steel, so anyone handy with a torch should be able to help you out there.

Just curious, why discs?

I'm considering a Swift but I would really want drop bars (and probably a FD) so I'm guessing the stock v-brakes would have to go. That led me to think well, why not replace them with discs, and I saw a pic on xootr's site of a Swift with disc brakes.
( http://www.xootr.com/gallery_swift-f...0disc%20brakes )

Actually I have never put a drop bar on a bike or done any work with brifters etc so I don't really know how it would work... most of my bikes have been flat bars but I've been addicted to my road bike since I bought it 6 months ago. The only problem is that it's not very portable, hence the Swift idea.

Bar end shifters & v-brake levers will work with no problems. It's what I did when I used bullhorns on my Swift. Waaaay simpler than disc conversion.

I'd be happy with a disc brake in front. Is there more to it than a new fork and a new front wheel? I hardly use the back brake anyway

I think the cabling from a v-brake is the same as a mech disc brake so a new fork and wheel should do it.

I don't want bar end shifters though. I was thinking something like Tiagra or 105.

Most disc brakes use the same cable pull as v-brakes. Avid BB7's come in a road version that pull the same amount as road callipers.

Have you looked at travel-agents?

yeah this is a bummer in general. if you want drop bars and 406 wheels then you have to do either
1) travel agents + regular v-brakes
2) "mini" v-brakes
3) cantilever brakes

I've tried #2 and #3 and been very unhappy with the results. #2 isn't so bad in back, but in the front the wheel drags on the bottom part of the brake. I've tried filing it down but it still drags.

the other possibility is to use sidepull brakes with 451 rims, or maybe extra-extra-long calipers on 406 rims.

That's what I'm doing on my Swift: bar-end shifters and V-brake oriented road levers on drop bars. Works great. For levers I'm using the Dia-Compe 287-V; Cane Creek and Tektro also make V-specific (long-pull) road levers.

I wouldn't mind going disc, but it isn't a simple conversion. Too bad, since Avid road discs work fantastically well with conventional (short-pull) road levers.

Fortunately I'm not finding a disc brake necessary so far, even for wet Oregon commuting. This especially surprises me because the dry braking, while adequate, is not awesome. But at least for the riding I've done so far, the performance hasn't seemed to degrade very much in the wet, unlike on my past 700c bikes. So it's been still adequate even in steady rain. That's with the stock front cable and crummy Promax brake, which upgrading would improve it a lot. The rear brake was NOT adequate in stock form (even when dry), and I have upgraded it with an Avid Single Digit 7 brake and Jagwire Racer cables, very carefully prepped. Though still just adequate, that's a big upgrade from inadequate.

Assuming the cable pull of your levers is matched to your brake (long-pull V-brake lever with most disc calipers, short-pull road or canti levers with Avid Road Discs), then ... well, it should be as simple as that, but ...

The problem is that getting a disc fork for a Swift is not simple. It's an unusual fork with a steerer that starts at 1 1/8" and then tapers to 1" above the top of the headset so that the 1" ID Swift riser can clamp onto it. Your fork options, near as I can tell, are:

• Have HPM/CAT in Eugene build you one (See link above - they are NOT merely a "bike shop" but an outlet for the Swift's co-designer). Price unknown, theoretically available but I haven't heard of anyone ordering one. This is probably the only option that wouldn't require you to also buy a new headset.
• Get a disc fork with a 1" steerer and use a reduction headset. IIRC Hostelshoppe sells one but the rake may throw the handling off a bit.
• Get a disc fork with a 1 1/8" steerer and buy a new 1 1/8" ID stem riser. I've searched and haven't found a 1 1/8" disc fork with the proper rake and A-C length. Most of the ones I did find were mod trials forks that were way too long.
• Have someone weld disc tabs onto a Swift fork. This has been animatedly discussed previously in this thread. There are varying opinions, but mine is that I wouldn't risk my dental work (or worse) to a fork modded in this way. A fork failure is one of the most dangerous mechanical problems you can have on a bike.
• Have a custom fork made. I've considered having WaltWorks make me one. Expensive (currently $275, or $325 for non-black) but Walt should be able to build you anything. I'd probably just have me build one with a 1 1/8" steerer and buy a matching riser.

I'll just toss one more option out there:

A drum brake. I don't know what the weight penalty would be compared to a disc conversion, but they pull the same amount of cable as road levers. They stop well, and a new wheel much simpler solution than trying to get a disc fitted.

I used drums on my Swift and was extremely happy with them. They stopped fine (on par with a good set of v-brakes IMHO), weren't affected by weather, needed no maintenance, and I didn't have to worry about the rotor getting bashed while the bike was folded and in transit.

It doesn't really jive with the 'high prefomance' feel you are looking for, but that's probably a matter of aesthetics more than function..

How did you mount the front drum to the swift fork? I've been debating putting a SA dynamo/drum hub on the front of my swift but have been unable to figure out the reaction arm mount.

Jubilee clip. No problems.

I bought a Swift on ebay hoping to enjoy it when I came back from a November vacation. Unfortunately it came in two packages, the second package never came with the front wheel :(

Does anyone have any recommendations on front wheels? The standard front wheel on the Xootr site is temporarily out of stock. I know most people have their own wheels built for weight + performance reasons, but I am just looking for a quick fix.

Thanks!

Depending on what drumbrake and what size tube in the fork you should be looking for something like this:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-a...702-prod19292/

Some more to choose from but there could be more out there: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-a...r_pg1/#page=10