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Old 06-12-16, 08:30 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yeah, I remember Cosell's penchant for mangling names. And "sad" was an ironic portent for how most of Matthew Saad Muhammad's life went, before and after boxing. But he was exciting at his peak.
Just to clarify my sloppily written account, it was Spinks that purposely misspoke Matthew's Muslim name.

That was a great era for light heavies. Offhand I can recall those battles between Victor Galindez and Jorge Ahumada (who'd done so well against Bob Foster); Yaqui Lopez; Saad Muhammad; Marvin Johnson; Eddie Mustafa Muhammad; James Scott, who almost went all the way before being derailed by Jerry Martin; and Dwight (Braxton) Muhammad Qawi, built like a fireplug and twice as tough. There are probably another half dozen I've forgotten.
John Conteh, Richie Kates, Mate Parlov and I've got to include Murray Sutherland if only because he's Scottish, lol. Could be that Mike Rossman injured his right hand in the second Galindez fight so he might arguably be a mention. It was such a loaded division that any of the top 10 that didn't hold a title certainly might've in any other era.

That's one of the reasons I'm inclined to regard Michael Spinks as one of the all time top three light heavies, and possibly the best of them all.
Very possibly. His division was far stronger than Foster's though I tend to think that Foster might have done quite well himself in that division. I'll also put Ezzard Charles up there though he never got the shot at a belt in that division and his losses there were to the likes of Harold Johnson (at his career's twilight) and Jimmy Bivins, whom he traded wins with in their fights. He has three wins on a prime Archie Moore, one being a KO. Dwight (Braxton) Qawi should probably make it about four by my estimation. Roy Jones Junior also had that stellar long record at 175 before his weight fluctuations and many want to put him up at the pinnacle as well.

Interesting to speculate how Conn and Loughran might have fared in the modern era though Conn's time at lightheavy was relatively short. Tunney also fought at 175 but drew the color line at the behest of his management......Which of course brings to mind one of the early great black fighters denied a title shot in the many weight divisions in which he fought: Sam Langford.

I shared a couple of boxing forums with a white Philidelphia fighter, whose ring name I never learned, though he was said to have a respectable record. He was just a huge huge fan of Matthew (Franklin) Saad Muhammad.....perhaps his favorite and certainly a hero and inspiration to him. He once searched him down, after Matthew's retirement, at some downtown Philly hotel to tell him just that.

I listed three of Matthew's fights in my list of recommended fights to watch in post 28 of this thread on page two. That just evidences how exciting his fights were to watch.




One of Matthew's fights that I only recently watched was the first Yaqui Lopez fight and that's the only reason it didn't make my list although the second one did. So here 'tis for anyone's veiwing pleasure.

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Old 06-17-16, 01:30 AM
  #102  
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After watching several light heavy bouts on YouTube from those great 1970s-'80s fighters, it's sad to see how the division has declined. Seems as if the best talents have been in the super-middle and cruiserweight divisions. One of the few really talented light-heavies, Antonio Tarver, got such a late start we never saw his full potential. He seemed to need longer breaks between bouts. But I suspect he'd have been a serious threat in any era. Same with Glen Johnson.

Also, I'd forgotten how much Dwight Braxton/Muhammad Qawi had declined by the time he was beaten twice by Holyfield. I rewatched those bouts against Saad Muhammad, Jerry Martin and others. Braxton/Qawi was incredible for his size, using his jab so effectively he often out-jabbed taller, rangier opponents and broke them down with technique and determination, even though he lacked one-punch KO power. At light heavy he was a well tuned machine, and only Michael Spinks presented any serious opposition. He did some of those clever infighting tricks that made Duran a legend, including that uppercut screened by his other forearm.

At cruiserweight against Holyfield, Braxton/Qawi was really just a shell of his former self. Not to take anything away from Holyfield's wins. Qawi was still a dangerous opponent, but just enough slower that his quick reflexes at light-heavy were gone against the very quick Holyfield. And Holyfield was so much better in their rematch it was a mismatch.
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Old 06-18-16, 12:18 PM
  #103  
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One of the great artists of the sport: Willie "Will of the Wisp" Pep's "escapology"

Too bad that Willie's only win out of four fights with the murderous punching and also great featherweight, Sandy Saddler wasn't filmed. Pep was pure slickness that reminded me of watching Fran Tarkenton scramble and evade tacklers when he quarterbacked for the Minnesota Vikings. (Actually one of the few players who would get my attention for watching the game.)



Both of those guys just had some remarkable records with Pep tallying 229 career wins to 11 losses and 1 draw.



Pep's career defining fight series rival, Sandy Saddler had an impressive 103 KOs to his credit to make the top 10 in that category. And man did those guys ever seriously hate one another back then.

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Old 06-18-16, 12:34 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
After watching several light heavy bouts on YouTube from those great 1970s-'80s fighters, it's sad to see how the division has declined.
Man if you think the boxing forums have some trash talking jokers, it pains me to even read some of the k00ks commenting in the YouTube columns, much less daring to log in and join them in civil conversation any more.

At cruiserweight against Holyfield, Braxton/Qawi was really just a shell of his former self. Not to take anything away from Holyfield's wins. Qawi was still a dangerous opponent, but just enough slower that his quick reflexes at light-heavy were gone against the very quick Holyfield. And Holyfield was so much better in their rematch it was a mismatch.
Here's your Cruiserweight guy right here......Look out prime James Toney.


Rocky Marciano's Suzie Q

Marciano was way behind in this 13th round and had been ever since Jersey Joe Walcott knocked him down in the first round. Jersey Joe took his ring name from the original Joe "Barbados Demon Walcott" who was history's 2nd black boxing champion upon holding the welterweight title from 1901 to 1904. Jersey Joe was in his late '30s in this but a very slick customer in the ring and defending the heavyweight title that he had taken from Ezzard Charles. This was the Ring Magazine's FOTY in '52 I believe it was.

Walcott had a habit of not quite squaring up and stepping up with his right foot, then swiveling his torso into a right hand punch that had just seemed out of punching range but upon doing that quick move, now all of a sudden was in perfect range. Now the problem with that is that you'll eventually begin to telegraph yourself to a crouching fighter who inevitably will notice you positioning your right foot before the right hand comes right after.......and you'll fall into that habit even when you are slightly more squared up as Joe was here with his back against the ropes.

So Marciano timed him perfectly to beat him to the punch and caught him as Walcott turned his whole upper torso right into the Brockdon Blockbuster's "Suzie Q"......Classic KO. Sounded like a car hit some pedestrian at high speed......all the way to the cheap seats I'll bet.

EDIT:

Actually it was Al Bernstein who pointed that little flaw of Walcott's that kind of set him up to be read by Marciano. And Rocky was obviously going for just that to pull the win out of what would probably have been a loss. The reason it made an impression on me is because I was always doing that just playing around with coworkers when play-sparing into the thin air. If I had the height advantage I'd show them my left side ribs and when they went for that I'd step, swivel and make out like I would've caught them coming in with the right......Not unlike an "anchor punch".

But I never tried it in a fight. And Walcott's experienced move was much more subtle and less pronounced than what I was pretending to do. When I heard Bernstein point that out I immediately thought: Uh Oh, lol.


Marciano would have made a very hard night for any modern prime cruiserweight if not beat them all, and a few of the Heavyweight champions as well. He and Patterson would have been very interesting had it happened and I'd tend to favor a bet on the Brockdon Blockbuster. Like Louis he was just hell in rematches and never gave Walcott a chance to get into their second fight.

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Old 06-18-16, 03:55 PM
  #105  
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Good call on Walcott's tell, I never noticed that before. I'll have to go back and re-watch some of those classic Walcott bouts.

Walcott did have a peculiar, deceptively sauntering footwork, and the rhythm probably threw off a lot of his opponents -- particularly that devastating left hook that caught Ezzard Charles. Walcott just seems to casually stroll up to Charles, then he does that little hitch in his gait and POW.

George Foreman in his comeback phase seemed to borrow a bit from Walcott and a bit from Archie Moore. I'm not sure Moore's crab shell defense suited Foreman -- Big George's arms-extended parrying always seemed to baffle most opponents. But the older George adopted much calmer footwork, with less of that legs-spread and galloping gait he did as a younger man. His kayos of Cooney and Moorer reminded me a lot of Walcott's deceptively calm demeanor -- the way he'd just casually saunter around and then sneak in a haymaker.

Moorer was never able to accept that he was legitimately kayoed by an old man who just seemed to be loafing around, but was actually carefully setting up Moorer. But if he'd listened to one of George's most common bits of advice -- "just keep touching 'em, just keep touching 'em, the knockout will come" -- Moorer wouldn't have so blithely shrugged off those pitty-pat jabs and feeler right hands, and that long left hook Big George used to corral opponents into right hand range.

Yep, I'd be inclined to rank Marciano as one of the Top Two at cruiserweight. I'm still inclined to give Evander Holyfield a slight edge over Rocky at cruiser. The younger Holyfield was so quick on the combinations and had an almost unerring eye for spotting an opponent's openings. He didn't really peak until cruiser, where he was more confident and effective than at light-heavy, but his reign at cruiser was so brief most folks forget how good he was at that weight.

At their respective peaks at cruiser, I'd pick Rocky over Toney because of his superior work rate -- Toney sometimes spent too much time making opponents miss without returning fire. And Toney often got clobbered hard on the top and back of the head when he did his shoulder roll and twist -- I'm not sure that's a good tactic against a devastating short puncher like Marciano.

But I'd pick Holyfield over Marciano because it'd be like a younger, prime Walcott, but quicker.

And I'd still pick Toney over Holyfield even in their primes at cruiser, just because Toney's style was always going to give Evander trouble. Close fight, but I'd give Toney a slight edge or at least a draw.

Eh, it's almost a shame to call it cruiserweight, which seems to relegate it to a lesser status. I wonder how the market draw would be if they renamed it heavyweight, and anything above super-heavy like the amateurs. I suppose that isn't really feasible over the long haul, since most really big heavies are more like Valuev and Jess Willard -- overgrown pugs -- rather than skilled athletes like the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, etc.
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Old 06-19-16, 01:35 AM
  #106  
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this is a great thread and has been a total pleasure to read analysis
and watch old posted videos of top-notch bouts/fighters. thanks to those
of you that have consistently kept the thread alive.
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Old 06-19-16, 02:05 AM
  #107  
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Both Rocky Marcano and middleweight Rocky Graziano dabbled a bit in the entertainment business following their ring careers. I'd completely forgotten this funny story that I'd heard from Jackie Gleason somewhere on TV as a kid, in this instance as related to Marciano in some 50s show he hosted interviewing celebrities.

I believe Tony Galento was probably in deceptively better shape than what he usually was during his winning streak of nine opponents previous to the Louis fight. Some of those seemed to reach towards recognizable (as in lost to the best) heights themselves as I cross check some of their Boxrecs. The three fighters that I recognize from Louis's resume that he lost to he went the ten rounds with. That's two decisions to Arturo Godoy who gave Louis much trouble in their split-decision first fight, former champion Ernie Schaaf and Johnny Risko who himself owns wins over Paulino Uzcudun and Jack Sharkey.

Then after the Louis fight he fights Lou Nova, apparently for a national title as he either TKOs him in the 14th round or manages something out of sight of the referee since it made a disreputable third place in the Ring Magazine's top ten dirtiest fights of all time. He certainly seems to be in bad company in high places there.

1. Luis Resto ND10 Billy Collins, Jr, June 16, 1983

2. Evander Holyfield DQ3 Mike Tyson, June 28, 1997

3. Tony Galento KO14 Lou Nova, September 15, 1939

4. Fritzie Zivic DQ2 Al "Bummy" Davis, Nov 15, 1940

5. Ad Wolgast KO13 "Mexican" Joe Rivers, July 4, 1912

6. Sandy Saddler KO9 Willie Pep, September 26, 1951

7 Gene Tunney W15 Harry Greb, February 23, 1923

8 Riddick Bowe DQ7 Andrew Golota, July 11, 1996

9. Jack Johnson DQ9 Fireman Jim Flynn, June 4, 1912

10. Joe Gans DQ42 Battling Nelson, September 3, 1906

I think old Ron "The Bluffs Butcher" Stander might have been in better shape than Chris Arreola was when he won his streak to get a pass for the Frazier fight. His problems were repeatedly charging head first into Fraziers left hook for four rounds and splashing blood all over the high dollar ringside seats.

I only saw Chris Arreola in the Jameel McCline fight and his problem was definitely not being able to suck enough oxygen into those massive lungs of his to hardly be able to finish a post fight interviw after KOing McCline in four rounds.

I had to agree with the other guy my age in that forum that the heavyweights were looking especially bleak when that's what the whole damned continent offered as some kind of challenge to the Ukrainian hypnotist at that time. I haven't seen a heavyweight fight since so I'm counting on you guys to tell me if Wilder is worth splitting a PPV cost three or four ways to watch with anyone else as his opponent being worth the watching.


Whatever we can say about Galento he found his way through a lot of 10 rounders. He was spared that in this fight with Louis but was one true short term threat for the moment he traded knockdowns with Joe.

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Old 06-19-16, 02:18 PM
  #108  
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"I had to agree with the other guy my age in that forum that the heavyweights were looking especially bleak when that's what the whole damned contenent offered as some kind of challenge to the Ukrainian hypnotist at that time. I haven't seen a heavyweight fight since so I'm counting on you guys to tell me if Wilder is worth splitting a PPV cost thre or four ways to watch with anyone else as his opponent being worth the watching."

Nah, I can't think of a single heavyweight title fight I'd pay for nowadays among the current crop of fighters. Well, maybe David Haye, who's usually an exciting fighter although he couldn't solve the Klitschko puzzle -- but few could.

Boxing overall is in a lull. It's a shame when the most interesting hypothetical matchups are all among guys nearing age 40, usually at catchweights to minimize the obvious mismatches. On the one hand, sure, it's a testament to the PED-enhanced work ethic of those older masters.

But few of the younger guys are even trying hard anymore, boxing only two or three times a year rather than every month or two like up and comers of previous eras. Then when they finally get their big chance it's often a disappointment because they lack the time-in-ring to make the best of their opportunities.
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Old 06-19-16, 09:34 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Nah, I can't think of a single heavyweight title fight I'd pay for nowadays among the current crop of fighters. Well, maybe David Haye, who's usually an exciting fighter although he couldn't solve the Klitschko puzzle -- but few could.
I'm not figuring why someone can't rush around that pawing of his on his left side away from that ready right he keeps loaded, before he can turn or step away, and just slam a right hand into him.....or several of them while at it.

If these guys are just going to let him jab them all night and waiting to use his right, then they should go for it where the right can't happen and the left hook is nullified as well. I just don't see him fast enough to react for punching room. I mean he's often looking like a one-two fighter out there sometimes.
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Old 06-19-16, 11:36 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
I'm not figuring why someone can't rush around that pawing of his on his left side away from that ready right he keeps loaded, before he can turn or step away, and just slam a right hand into him.....or several of them while at it.

If these guys are just going to let him jab them all night and waiting to use his right, then they should go for it where the right can't happen and the left hook is nullified as well. I just don't see him fast enough to react for punching room. I mean he's often looking like a one-two fighter out there sometimes.
That describes Rigondeaux too. But when a boxer does the old one-two so perfectly (or, in Hayes' case, well enough for the heavyweight division), it's good enough.

Usually.

But occasionally these one-two specialists meet their nemesis. Way back when Pacquiao and Marquez first met, Pacman was mostly a one-two fighter. When he failed to stop Marquez despite the repeated early knockdowns, Marquez quickly caught onto Pacquiao's limitations and outboxed him for most of the rest of the match.

That's when Freddie Roach taught Pacquiao a few new tricks, and the legend was born... with the help of catch-weights and carefully selected weakened opponents. But even the new and admittedly greatly improved Pacman could never quite outwit, out-speed or out-hustle Marquez enough to thoroughly dominate him.

Haye is beatable, although not necessarily by any of the current top ten heavies. He's too much in love with his own punching power, although he's a bit more cautious since his KO loss to Carl Thompson.

Rigondeaux might eventually beat himself, if he hangs around too long after his reflexes are gone. It's unfortunate he doesn't fight more often, even if it's not the high paying matches he wants. Maybe he's worried he'll end up like Roy Jones Jr, who dipped into the trough too often and got caught -- badly -- after his once superhuman reflexes let him down.
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Old 06-20-16, 11:04 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
That describes Rigondeaux too. But when a boxer does the old one-two so perfectly (or, in Hayes' case, well enough for the heavyweight division), it's good enough.

Usually.

But occasionally these one-two specialists meet their nemesis. Way back when Pacquiao and Marquez first met, Pacman was mostly a one-two fighter. When he failed to stop Marquez despite the repeated early knockdowns, Marquez quickly caught onto Pacquiao's limitations and outboxed him for most of the rest of the match.

That's when Freddie Roach taught Pacquiao a few new tricks, and the legend was born... with the help of catch-weights and carefully selected weakened opponents. But even the new and admittedly greatly improved Pacman could never quite outwit, out-speed or out-hustle Marquez enough to thoroughly dominate him.

Haye is beatable, although not necessarily by any of the current top ten heavies. He's too much in love with his own punching power, although he's a bit more cautious since his KO loss to Carl Thompson.

Rigondeaux might eventually beat himself, if he hangs around too long after his reflexes are gone. It's unfortunate he doesn't fight more often, even if it's not the high paying matches he wants. Maybe he's worried he'll end up like Roy Jones Jr, who dipped into the trough too often and got caught -- badly -- after his once superhuman reflexes let him down.
I dunno maybe I'm letting my mouth talk too much from the cheap seats but I've always seen even the new improved Emanuel Steward trained version of Klit to still be beatable. Maybe it was the "Fast" Eddie Chambers fight that was the last heavyweight fight that I saw. So when the other old timer in HBO's forum and I saw that he was a Philly fighter it kind of got our hopes up that maybe finally some American might take the title back from this this big commie.

So I'm thinking that if I were relatively short and fast I'd slip my head to the side of that big dummy's outgoing paw, slip around to his left real "fast" and tag him a good one that could be quickly followed up on. But it became apparent that "Fast" Eddie's nickname was one of those inappropriate ones that they give out like "Tiny" and that he was going to be content to eat that jab all night until Klit surprised him in the last round by taking him out with a left hook instead of his right. I had forgotten that he even had one of those in his arsenal myself.

So naturally any American who grew up watching the '70s era heavyweights would get a little depressed watching someone out of Philadelphia's fabled gym lose a "cold war" fight like that.

I haven't watched the heavyweights since.

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Old 06-21-16, 08:06 AM
  #112  
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Speaking of Philadelphia fighters, I didn't get to see Bad Bennie Briscoe vs Carlos Monzon 2 but I had followed through the boxing magazines the buildup to it and was sure rooting for Briscoe off the draw he had fought with Monzon five years earlier. I'd seen Monzon dismantle Nino Benvenuti and wear down Emile Griffith. I believe I vaguely remember seeing the Denny Moyer fight and read about the title defenses against the French and Danish fighters that weren't aired on stateside TV. So I was under no illusions about the dominance that Monzon was imposing on a pretty good division and he was a good regular defender against all deserving threats.....Which is what I wanted to see from Pavlik instead of them trying to collect a bunch of different titles which didn't happen anyway.

I'd only read about Benny up until then but knew he was a policeman of the division even then stopping a lot of fighters from going any further towards a title. So I was glad to see Benny get the title shot and Monzon made me respect him even more for giving him the opportunity.



Monzon pretty much did his usual cool calm and collected job of winning that fight except for that one good right hand that Briscoe clocked him with in the 9th round. He just couldn't quite manage to follow up against the great Argentinian. I think Monzon was probably a much more experienced fighter that he had been five years before.

Briscoe had a lot of wars and the ones with Rodrigo Valdez seem to be the ones that guys older than me remember best. But since he lost the three of those I chose this video of him beating up Anthony Mundine's dad, who was considered one of the rising talents of the era and was supported with high hopes to be a world beater back in Australia.


Though he never quite won the title, Bad Bennie Bricoe was the quintessential Philidelphia fighter and was famous with the era's fans. They didn't call him Bad Bennie just because it rolled off the tongue with a nice poetic ring to it......It was because he was Bad.

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Old 06-22-16, 12:29 AM
  #113  
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Yeah, Bad Benny was a sight to behold. He had the misfortune of peaking during an era of some of the division's strongest champions and challengers. He was among the very few fighters to make Marvin Hagler box cautiously.

And Valdez was greatly underrated, a slickster like Napoles but with more serious punching power. I always wondered what happened to Valdez after the bouts with Monzon and Briscoe. He seemed to age very quickly. Reminded me of how quickly Wilfred Benitez aged -- he actually looked gray, weak and sickly against Mustafa Hamsho. Time is very unkind to some of the great boxers.

A younger, fresher Briscoe might have been able to finish off Monzon, although that's always open to debate. Monzon apparently was rocked only that one time -- the knockdown by Valdez was more of a flash knockdown and Monzon popped up and shrugged it off with no ill effects. He seemed to have good recuperative powers and good survival instincts. But Briscoe was already fading a bit by the time he scored that knockdown.

It's interesting that Briscoe seemed to be the only opponent Monzon liked, or at least openly respected. Monzon was overtly disdainful toward most opponents, which you could read in his body language: the way he cuffed Benvenuti around like a rag doll; and he seemed simultaneously surprised and disgusted that Licata wouldn't say down. Monzon actually shrugged and shook his head with bored disdain when Licata kept getting up again.

I suppose the mutual respect came from being the two seriously baddest men in the middleweight division at that time.
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Old 06-22-16, 12:32 AM
  #114  
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BTW, thanks for the Willie Pep videos. For some reason the only Pep videos I'd watched before were against Saddler, which didn't really show Pep at his best. I'd heard how slick he was, but hadn't really seen it until watching those highlight reels of him in his prime. There's a little Pep in Hector Camacho and Floyd Mayweather Jr -- same slick spins, turning opponents around so quickly they didn't know which way to go.
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Old 06-28-16, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post

I remember that bout against Palomino, whom I really admired, and thinking he was trying to adapt to Duran's style, but was always a tick too slow, always a fraction of a second behind in anticipating Duran's moves, and not controlling the inside game. Palomino was really more of an outside boxer-puncher, not an infighter, and he got suckered into playing Duran's game. But at times, especially early in that bout, it almost looked like one guy shadowboxing in the mirror. The lightweight Duran against DeJesus was another near mirror-image type match up.
Palomino didn't have the heart to fight anymore. It was gone. Duran at the press conference told Palomino that he should quit. Duran didn't hurt Palomino in that fight.
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Old 06-28-16, 07:39 AM
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Agreed about Palomino. He was a smart guy, college educated, good looking and had potential for TV. He'd done a bit on Taxi (pretending to kayo Tony Danza's character), and a beer commercial, and showed some genuine charisma. Not sure why he didn't pursue that.

He looked good against Duran at first, but as you noted he seemed to fade as Duran outworked and picked him apart with effective infighting. But he took some of Duran's best shots and handled himself well.

That's a classic example of the major difference between a guy who does one thing really well, without external distractions -- Duran -- and a guy who has multiple options and hears the beckoning of a less painful way to make a living. That's also why Floyd Mayweather Jr. is so impressive. He's had many distractions, yet manages to adapt well enough as he ages to win -- although without the excitement he used to generate.
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Old 06-28-16, 01:01 PM
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.................................................WAR !

And you close out those two stupid assed little captions up in their upper right hand corners.

Another Philadelphia fighter: Smokin' Joe Frazier - vs the Louisville Lip.

Don Dunphy on the mic......Arguably the best commentator although I liked Bernstein.

Frazier hated Ali's guts until the day he died. I mean serious enmity. They said that Ali's people would try to just tell Joe before he died that it was just gate hype but Joe just hated him. It wasn't the "Gorilla in Manilla" stuff and all that in the prefight . It was that social weapon: "Uncle Tom".

Joe Frazier hated Muhammad Ali - New York Boxing Blog- ESPN

Quote by Joe Frazier excerpted:

"Truth is, I'd like to rumble with that sucker again -- beat him up piece by piece and mail him back to Jesus. ... Now people ask me if I feel bad for him, now that things aren't going so well for him. Nope. I don't. Fact is, I don't give a damn. They want me to love him, but I'll open up the graveyard and bury his ass when the Lord chooses to take him."

(snip)

Another excerpt from the article:

Frazier, while Ali was in exile for refusing induction into the armed services, loaned Ali cash on a couple occasion. And Ali paid him back by going over the line from trash talking to careless character assassination when he called Frazier an "Uncle Tom" and tried to lobby blacks to see him as a water carrier for whites.

(end of excerpts)

A lot of heavy baggage goes with that phrase. I wouldn't dare use it on old guys too timid to walk into the front door of a restaurant......and I sure as hell wouldn't use it on Frazier even on the internet.....even if I were black so as to qualify to use it.

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Old 06-29-16, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Agreed about Palomino. He was a smart guy, college educated, good looking and had potential for TV. He'd done a bit on Taxi (pretending to kayo Tony Danza's character), and a beer commercial, and showed some genuine charisma. Not sure why he didn't pursue that.

He looked good against Duran at first, but as you noted he seemed to fade as Duran outworked and picked him apart with effective infighting. But he took some of Duran's best shots and handled himself well.

That's a classic example of the major difference between a guy who does one thing really well, without external distractions -- Duran -- and a guy who has multiple options and hears the beckoning of a less painful way to make a living. That's also why Floyd Mayweather Jr. is so impressive. He's had many distractions, yet manages to adapt well enough as he ages to win -- although without the excitement he used to generate.
If you check out his name in the internet movie database, you will find quite a few things he did in entertainment. IMDb - Movies, TV and Celebrities - IMDb
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Old 06-29-16, 03:12 PM
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I missed this one for having to work that Saturday


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Old 06-29-16, 03:26 PM
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Old 06-29-16, 05:02 PM
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On that second fight, Palomino fought most of it with a broken hand.
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Old 06-29-16, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Garfield Cat View Post
On that second fight, Palomino fought most of it with a broken hand.

I didn't get to see either one of those but I read about them. Both were touted as good fights so I posted them as Palomino's best on the Tube, that I know of, and will watch them tonight. He's well thought of by Latino fans that I've known. If he had hand issues that weren't healed well it could have very well affected him cashing in and bailing out of his ring career too. Don't know if it was a long term issue though.

Here's what he said in an interview about his opponents:

Best overall: “It has to be Roberto Duran. I always had the idea that he was just a brawler. What surprised me was that the guy could really box –- going in and out, the feints, it was just a surprise to me. It impressed me how quick his shots were and how much power he had. And his movement surprised me.”

Lots of action from West Coast Latino fighters back then. I remember Muniz beating Earnie 'Indian Red' Lopez and it's out there. I couldn't find video of any of Ernie's wins in very good quality but I got to follow his little brother some on TV whom I've posted below:


One of Danny 'Lil Red' Lopez's title defenses


Looks like a promising smooth young fighter right there.

George Foreman shares in the commentary

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Old 06-30-16, 11:31 AM
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In the first Duran v. Leonard fight, it was Duran. But second fight is what most people remember.
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Old 06-30-16, 05:33 PM
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Armando Muniz was one of those great gatekeeper boxers. Not quite championship caliber, but good enough to be a serious challenge to any champ. Muniz had a great left hook, effortless, sneaky and well timed. And he fought taller than his actual height and reach. He got a relatively late start in a young man's game so we'll never know how good he might have been. In interviews he admitted to feeling old and drained by his early 30s and couldn't take advantage of his title shots.

I remember the controversial bout against Napoles, which the ref stopped claiming the champ's eye cuts were caused by Muniz head butts. I'll have to re-watch that fight to see how it looks now. As a teenager I was rooting for Napoles so naturally I thought of Muniz as a dirty fighter.

Revisiting Muniz against Palomino reveals how good Palomino was over the full distance -- he still had plenty of snap in his punches, while Muniz looked exhausted. In the 15 round championship bouts that edge in stamina often weeded out the great talents who lacked that stamina. That's why Oscar De La Hoya was lucky to peak in the 12 round era -- he'd never have made it as a 15 round champ, he always seemed to fade by the 10th round and too often coasted the final rounds, which cost him some decisions.
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Old 06-30-16, 06:16 PM
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Armando Muniz: I was disappointed in Muniz when he fought Ray Leonard. In the early rounds, the bell sounded, he went back to his corner and never came back out. Before that he had Ray Leonard on the ropes and he could have lashed out a flurry of punches, but he just let Ray off the hook.

Ray's eyes were big as if he was scared when he was up against the ropes.

Palomino learned that he was an endurance athlete while at Cal State Long Beach. He was running and saw the cross country team do repeats at the track. They invited him do do repeats and he was surprised at how their workouts made him sorrowful. So he caught on and ran their workouts. That's how he knew that he would be in better conditioning than most boxers.

After he retired from boxing at age 30, he kept running and did a few marathons. I don't know his times, but he was a respectable runner.
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