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-   -   do people who was blind since birth (https://www.bikeforums.net/foo/1097324-do-people-who-blind-since-birth.html)

windhchaser 02-09-17 05:58 AM

do people who was blind since birth
 
know what humans look like?

dstrong 02-09-17 07:48 AM

If knowing what something "looks like" requires sight, then no.

wphamilton 02-09-17 08:33 AM

The difficulty in answering that is the sparse objectivity of evaluating the brain's visuospatial processing. It's not really resolved yet whether blind people utilize visual imagery, but there are some indications that they do. One of the questions is how distinct are the brain's visual processing and perception functions. Another is just what a visual "mental image" is; the argument against is that blind people (drawing from memory) simply preserve the spatial and metric properties and work from that, but you could describe any visual image that way, at least in part.

I think that it's likely that most congenitally blind people can and do imagine visual images, and they do "know what humans look like."

genec 02-09-17 09:09 AM

Heck, do we sighted folks even see the same colors in our brains... is the red I see in my mind the same color you see for red?

Sure we know colors have a particular wavelength, and the eyes respond in a certain way, but do our brains interpret that "input" in the same manner?


People universally believe that objects look colored because they are colored, just as we experience them. The sky looks blue because it is blue, grass looks green because it is green, and blood looks red because it is red. As surprising as it may seem, these beliefs are fundamentally mistaken. Neither objects nor lights are actually ‘colored’ in anything like the way we experience them. Rather, color is a psychological property of our visual experiences when we look at objects and lights, not a physical property of those objects or lights. The colors we see are based on physical properties of objects and lights that cause us to see them as colored, to be sure, but these physical properties are different in important ways from the colors we perceive. (Palmer 1999, p. 95)
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/color/

jbchybridrider 02-09-17 10:50 AM

Just my thoughts but blind people from birth have highly developed senses to touch smell sound and memory. So they do see but in a different way than sighted people needed to through necessity. Two sighted people can look at the same thing but see something different in there own mind. Everyone sees different whether there sighted or not.

bigbenaugust 02-09-17 11:15 AM


Originally Posted by genec (Post 19366936)
Heck, do we sighted folks even see the same colors in our brains... is the red I see in my mind the same color you see for red?

Sure we know colors have a particular wavelength, and the eyes respond in a certain way, but do our brains interpret that "input" in the same manner?


https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/color/

I wouldn't trust them, they're from Stanford.

DrIsotope 02-09-17 11:19 AM

Even though they're blind, they still have imagination, and can conceive of objects/concepts without having to seeing them.

The one that blows my mind is when they put the electronic implant on people deaf from birth, and bam, they can instantly hear-- those folks can speak and understand words like... instantly, having never heard speech before. How does that work?

andr0id 02-09-17 11:26 AM

My step grandfather was blind from birth. I think he had a pretty good concept of the size, shape and dimensions of most objects based on touch.

I think if he miraculously were able to see one day, I think he would recognize most objects visually without having to touch them. A skinny cylindrical object on a table would be recognize as a pencil and not an automobile for example.

noisebeam 02-09-17 12:29 PM

These men clearly have 3d representation of the environment in mind
https://mpora.com/longform/daniel-ki...d-cycle-batman

JonnyHK 02-09-17 03:49 PM


Originally Posted by jbchybridrider (Post 19367195)
Just my thoughts but blind people from birth have highly developed senses to touch smell sound and memory. So they do see but in a different way than sighted people needed to through necessity. Two sighted people can look at the same thing but see something different in there own mind. Everyone sees different whether there sighted or not.

My dad was a prosecutor back in the day and one case he recalled (not his) had a blind witness giving a better description of the suspect than anyone else!

canklecat 02-09-17 11:49 PM

People born with fully functional senses can't agree on what other people look like. Notions of beauty, kinship, acceptance, unspoken communication, vary wildly.

Blind people may see other humans more clearly than we can ever imagine.

late 02-13-17 08:46 AM

You have to learn to see.

We've all forgotten, but there have been cases of people learning to see as adults.

You see a wall as being flat. But a young child sees it as curved because his eye is curved.
You have to learn to see it as flat..

Perception is interpretation.

Fett2oo5 02-13-17 01:29 PM

"They dun think it be like it is but it do"

wphamilton 02-13-17 03:44 PM


Originally Posted by late (Post 19375368)
You have to learn to see.

We've all forgotten, but there have been cases of people learning to see as adults.

You see a wall as being flat. But a young child sees it as curved because his eye is curved.
You have to learn to see it as flat..

Perception is interpretation.

For many years I'd have agreed with you, that we had to learn it all from scratch and our perceptions might be wildly different from each other even while we react to them similarly. But this isn't fully understood yet, and there are examples of visual perceptions that appear to arise from instincts, or are common across all members of a species. Experiments show the same patterns of neural excitation to viewed shapes.

Blind people have reported having visual components of dreaming. I'm more inclined now to think that much of our visual perception is baked in genetically in the structures of our brains, and that you and I probably do see the color red in exactly the same way.

late 02-14-17 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by wphamilton (Post 19376490)

1) that we had to learn it all from scratch and our perceptions

much of our visual perception is baked in genetically in the structures of our brains

and that you and I probably do see the color red in exactly the same way.

1) We know for a fact that you have to learn how to see.

2) Sure

3) No, there are differences. As a practical matter, it's not usually going to have an impact most of the time. But there are differences in the way people see things. I have to wear glasses, even with them, I lack the visual acuity of some combat pilots that are 10/10.

wphamilton 02-14-17 09:49 AM


Originally Posted by late (Post 19377720)
1) We know for a fact that you have to learn how to see.

2) Sure

3) No, there are differences. As a practical matter, it's not usually going to have an impact most of the time. But there are differences in the way people see things. I have to wear glasses, even with them, I lack the visual acuity of some combat pilots that are 10/10.

Sure, certain aspects of it have to be learned. Some of it is baked in, and one of the big questions being researched is how the visual/spatial processing relate to the parts of the brain receiving sensory impressions. These are not the same and it's not so easy as "you learn to see."

Whether we "see the color red" the same way, I'm referring to the mental image not the variations of acuity or defects in our eyes, retina, optic nerve etc. Chances are we have the same mental image of it, we "see" red the same way in our mind's eye. That's what this thread's question thread is about: can a congenitally blind person have the same kind of mental image of people as do sighted? It turns out that the question isn't a simple one since there's been a lot of research about it for about 25 years and it still isn't determined.

indyfabz 02-14-17 12:17 PM

If a person "was blind," that implies that they are no longer blind.

mikelore 02-15-17 10:39 PM

Great thread, it is great to hear everybody's thoughts on this. Thanks for sharing the video.


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