Go Back  Bike Forums > The Lounge > Foo
Reload this Page >

So, just how much nonsense do you tolerate?

Foo Off-Topic chit chat with no general subject.

So, just how much nonsense do you tolerate?

Reply

Old 02-09-17, 10:36 PM
  #1  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,248

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5831 Post(s)
So, just how much nonsense do you tolerate?

Say a friend or relative has some notion... "earth is flat," for instance... just how much do you take before offering up facts?

Or say a friend or family says x is the only way to do a thing, and you have tried y and believe that if they would just try y, perhaps they too would go the route of y.

Just how far do you go?

Do you just "smile and wave," or do you endeavour to present them with verifiable facts?
genec is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-17, 11:15 PM
  #2  
skijor
on by
 
skijor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 940

Bikes: Waterford RS-33, Salsa Vaya, Bacchetta Giro 20 ATT

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 573 Post(s)
If the ignorance is P and/or R related, then I don't bother. Those are walls of ignorance that are quite stout. My brother has pointed out time and again to his in-laws, that if they'd take a minute to search online to confirm/deny a given outrageous story by the only news outlet they frequent, they'd find several credible sources that disprove the story. Doesn't matter, they've been drinking the bad koolaid for so long that they don't care.

Now if the notion is that light beer is some good shat, then I cannot help but enlighten the poor soul. It's not the 70's anymore. You don't have to drink ****** beer anymore. There's a carpload of great beer available in most corners of the U.S.
skijor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-17, 11:45 PM
  #3  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,291

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2503 Post(s)
Some studies published, discussed and cussed during the recent campaign indicated that misguided notions based on religion, faith, superstition and fear are resistant to change. Attempts at blatant correction of errors tend to reinforce their mistaken beliefs, in part due to the tendency of fear based beliefs to embrace a persecution complex. Outsider attempts to correct their mistakes serve to reinforce the notion that evil outside forces will try to break their faiths with tempting, persuasive lies that will lead them astray.

They can be gradually persuaded with great patience, but they must first experience enough personal doubt to open the door a crack to admit any outside notions.

Another possibility -- admittedly deceptive -- is to pose as a believer who shares their faiths and has even more secret knowledge to impart. In this way a particularly charismatic and persuasive person can take over the role of cult leader, then gradually introduce completely contradictory information.

In other words, the most effective person to dispel beliefs in myths, delusions and lies is the very person who originally taught and reinforced those falsehoods. By introducing correct information as a new revelation, the followers are more likely to accept the contradictory information.

Heckuva thing, the human psyche.
canklecat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 12:18 AM
  #4  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,248

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5831 Post(s)
The P / R aspect I tend to avoid... I agree there is little one can do to modify such opinions.

An example of what I am talking about was recently one of my sisters mentioning that her arms were stronger than her legs. I indicated that her legs did vastly more work, carried more weight, and were significantly larger muscles.

She countered that she lifts weights often with her arms, so she just "knew" they were stronger than her legs. I indicated that her legs were carrying not only the weight of her body, but also the weight that she was lifting with her arms.

"But I don't work out my legs," was her response.

I could not get her to realize that her legs were doing work while she worked out her arms while she stood lifting weights.
genec is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 12:23 AM
  #5  
DrIsotope 
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 6,094

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 84 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3181 Post(s)
You can seldom get someone to change their mind by presenting them with logic or facts, because their beliefs are quite often founded in emotion or opinion and not reason.

I just know if I ran into a Flat-Earther, I would ask them questions until they got tired and left.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 12:39 AM
  #6  
wgscott
VectorPotential sensitive
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The Timbers of Fennario (CL77)
Posts: 4,203

Bikes: Steel

Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2202 Post(s)
I just try to relax and go gaze at the chemtrails.
wgscott is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 12:44 AM
  #7  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,248

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5831 Post(s)
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
You can seldom get someone to change their mind by presenting them with logic or facts, because their beliefs are quite often founded in emotion or opinion and not reason.

I just know if I ran into a Flat-Earther, I would ask them questions until they got tired and left.
Apparently true... it seems many folks are dazzled by "bright and shiny" vice actual facts.

I have an engineering background and tend to seek provable facts to support my arguments, while some of my other family members just "know" what they believe is right.

This of course gets me labeled as some sort of "intellectual," as if actual knowledge is a bad thing to possess.

This results in "chemtrail" verses "contrail" type arguments from time to time.

Last edited by genec; 02-10-17 at 01:06 AM.
genec is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 02:32 AM
  #8  
Rollfast
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,102

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1335 Post(s)
Spilled beans can't be used for BBQ sauce and you can't feed them to critters.
__________________
Summary: Life is still 100% fatal.
Rollfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 03:26 AM
  #9  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,248

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5831 Post(s)
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I just try to relax and go gaze at the chemtrails.
Yeah, I keep getting signs from my wife to shut up and "go along to get along."

I could almost just do that, except one of these "issues" also regards a high current device and corroded electrical connections in an old house.

The relative is convinced that it was time of day, vice overheated wiring, that caused a short.

"Well it happened at 8:00 PM, so there must be something special about that time, 'cause it was working fine at 7:00 PM."

There was just no explaining how it took "a period of time," not "a specific time," for this failure to occur.

I am afraid other wiring in the house is also subject to similar failure, and have suggested that perhaps certain modern conveniences not be used.

That was met with loads of scepticism... "Well it's always worked before... "

So I am afraid I've become "that damn smartass" in their minds.
genec is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 03:35 AM
  #10  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,291

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2503 Post(s)
It isn't just a P&R thing. I've known atheists and agnostics who were equally impervious to reason, logic and critical thinking. It's a fundamental problem that becomes more difficult to resolve with age as the brain seems to harden and becomes more resistant to adapting.

Many folks who believe they do possess solid critical thinking skills commit errors along the way so even when they follow the appearance of a logical thought process the solution is inevitably wrong. The witch scene in Monty Python and The Holy Grail is a classic example.

Another we learned in high school philosophy class (imagine a high school still teaching philosophy nowadays?) goes something like this:
  • A sheet of paper is an ink-lined plane.
  • An inclined plane is a slope up.
  • A slow pup is a lazy dog.
  • Therefore a sheet of paper equals a lazy dog.

It gives the appearance of following a logical process, but fundamental errors along the way confound the solution.

Another example, an anecdote from my first marriage.

For years my first ex-wife called a single layer cake baked in a large, flat rectangular baking pan a "sheath cake". She was prone to mispronunciations of many other words so I told her it was a sheet cake. Nope, she insisted, it was a sheath cake. It was merely a coincidence that it was baked in a sheet pan. We bickered about that and finally she said "Next time we visit my parents we'll ask my mother. She'll tell you it's a sheath cake."

So we did. And sure enough her mother called it a sheath cake. I insisted on an explanation for why they believed it was called a sheath cake when it was baked in a sheet pan and every recipe book called it a sheet cake. They finally concocted some convoluted answer that the baking pan and the frosting form a sheath for the cake in between.

There's no arguing with that sort of logic. This was a family fully and inextricably committed to its own ways and no outsider would ever influence them in any way. So I let it go.

Later, on that same visit, we stopped up in Oklahoma to visit her grandmother. As soon as we'd spoken I had an idea what the real answer was. I saw the grandmother's teeth in a glass of water. So I asked her about her cooking and baking tips that she passed along to her daughter (my then-mother-in-law). Specifically, I asked what she called a cake baked in a single layer pan like the one I found in her kitchen.

"Oh, thath a sheeth cake," she lisped through her bare gums.

True story.
canklecat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 05:03 AM
  #11  
kknh3
Senior Member
 
kknh3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 234

Bikes: Schwinn High Plains, Trek 750 Multi-Track, Schwinn Passage, Schwinn High Sierra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
It isn't just a P&R thing. I've known atheists and agnostics who were equally impervious to reason, logic and critical thinking. It's a fundamental problem that becomes more difficult to resolve with age as the brain seems to harden and becomes more resistant to adapting.

Many folks who believe they do possess solid critical thinking skills commit errors along the way so even when they follow the appearance of a logical thought process the solution is inevitably wrong. The witch scene in Monty Python and The Holy Grail is a classic example.

Another we learned in high school philosophy class (imagine a high school still teaching philosophy nowadays?) goes something like this:
  • A sheet of paper is an ink-lined plane.
  • An inclined plane is a slope up.
  • A slow pup is a lazy dog.
  • Therefore a sheet of paper equals a lazy dog.

It gives the appearance of following a logical process, but fundamental errors along the way confound the solution.

Another example, an anecdote from my first marriage.

For years my first ex-wife called a single layer cake baked in a large, flat rectangular baking pan a "sheath cake". She was prone to mispronunciations of many other words so I told her it was a sheet cake. Nope, she insisted, it was a sheath cake. It was merely a coincidence that it was baked in a sheet pan. We bickered about that and finally she said "Next time we visit my parents we'll ask my mother. She'll tell you it's a sheath cake."

So we did. And sure enough her mother called it a sheath cake. I insisted on an explanation for why they believed it was called a sheath cake when it was baked in a sheet pan and every recipe book called it a sheet cake. They finally concocted some convoluted answer that the baking pan and the frosting form a sheath for the cake in between.

There's no arguing with that sort of logic. This was a family fully and inextricably committed to its own ways and no outsider would ever influence them in any way. So I let it go.

Later, on that same visit, we stopped up in Oklahoma to visit her grandmother. As soon as we'd spoken I had an idea what the real answer was. I saw the grandmother's teeth in a glass of water. So I asked her about her cooking and baking tips that she passed along to her daughter (my then-mother-in-law). Specifically, I asked what she called a cake baked in a single layer pan like the one I found in her kitchen.

"Oh, thath a sheeth cake," she lisped through her bare gums.

True story.
It's not just your wife's family. I've heard sheet cake referred to as sheath cake multiple times as well!
kknh3 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 07:40 AM
  #12  
wgscott
VectorPotential sensitive
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The Timbers of Fennario (CL77)
Posts: 4,203

Bikes: Steel

Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2202 Post(s)
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Yeah, I keep getting signs from my wife to shut up and "go along to get along."
Sorry, it was meant to be a joke (at the expense of our local wackos).

We're a household of scientists, so very little goes uncriticized.
wgscott is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 08:21 AM
  #13  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 20,907

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 728 Post(s)
Originally Posted by skijor View Post
If the ignorance is P and/or R related, then I don't bother. Those are walls of ignorance that are quite stout. My brother has pointed out time and again to his in-laws, that if they'd take a minute to search online to confirm/deny a given outrageous story by the only news outlet they frequent, they'd find several credible sources that disprove the story. Doesn't matter, they've been drinking the bad koolaid for so long that they don't care.

Now if the notion is that light beer is some good shat, then I cannot help but enlighten the poor soul. It's not the 70's anymore. You don't have to drink ****** beer anymore. There's a carpload of great beer available in most corners of the U.S.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: http://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Homebrew01 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 08:32 AM
  #14  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 21,995

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r

Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2762 Post(s)
to some, the truth doesn't matter, facts don't matter
rumrunn6 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 08:33 AM
  #15  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 14,246

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2351 Post(s)
I'd say that I can let it go on indefinitely as long as they don't involve me in the nonsense, but posting here falsifies that claim. So I'm wondering if this thread is naturally self-validating, and if a positive feedback loop could send it out of control.

In that vein, I agree that intelligent people shouldn't put up with any nonsense at all. How are people going to learn if we don't at least expose them to the facts?
wphamilton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 11:28 AM
  #16  
no motor?
Senior Member
 
no motor?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 5,890

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Learning that you can't change others, you can only change your reaction to them applied to family members too was something that took a while to get used to, but after I made my peace I knew I'd made the right choice. Especially when my Dad got furious at me for pushing the antenna down on my sisters new car. He and my sister were positive I'd broken her power antenna after it didn't come out after she turned the key on, and she drove 4 hours to get home without being able to listen to the radio. When she brought the car back for service they told her there was no power antenna available for her car and then pulled it back up for her. How'd that happen?
no motor? is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 11:31 AM
  #17  
HardyWeinberg
GATC
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south Puget Sound
Posts: 8,663
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
I tend to just shut down
HardyWeinberg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 11:35 AM
  #18  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,049

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4329 Post(s)
This is more about the situation than any kind of rule.

If my friend's opinion were material to me in some way, ie. he kept telling me I was doing something wrong, I might try to disabuse him of his notions one way or another. Or I might simply tell him to stuff it.

OTOH- if it weren't material to me, I might offer him help if I thought it would help him, but otherwise trying to correct his notions with "facts" would only reverse the roles of the original proposition.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 11:40 AM
  #19  
mconlonx 
Str*t*gic *quivoc*tor
 
mconlonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,559
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6611 Post(s)
1) Make savage fun of them for their ignorance, especially if it's just stuff you know they are parroting from other alt-fact sources.
2) Present a devil's advocate position on the matter and argue it. For fun.
3) Smile and nod like they are a buffoon who know not of what they say -- correcting them would be pointless, and even though correcting them might benefit them in the long run, they deserve to live with their misconceptions.
__________________
I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
mconlonx is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 12:57 PM
  #20  
banerjek
Portland Fred
 
banerjek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,381

Bikes: Custom Winter, Challenge Seiran SL, Fuji Team Pro, Cattrike Road/Velokit, РOS hybrid

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Arguments are rarely about the facts, so going there rarely leads anywhere useful.

I just ignore crazy stuff. Barking at dogs just riles them up.
banerjek is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 01:24 PM
  #21  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,291

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2503 Post(s)
Originally Posted by kknh3 View Post
It's not just your wife's family. I've heard sheet cake referred to as sheath cake multiple times as well!
Sounds like a variation of the Mandela Effect, a sort of mass confabulation of the collective memory, reinforced by repetition and flaws inherent to the human brain.

There are probably tests to indicate correlations between people who are prone to this sort of insistence on dysfunctional memories and their needs to fit into a group, community or special interest niche where belonging is more important than facts or truth.

"Imagine what you'll 'know' tomorrow."

canklecat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 02:08 PM
  #22  
bikecrate
Senior Member
 
bikecrate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: LF, APMAT
Posts: 2,154
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Talking to someone else who has another viewpoint can help define your own position, but I'm not interested in trying to "convert" people who have already made up their minds and don't respect my opinion. I've had some discussions end with "you obviously don't know what you're talking about". I don't bother with them anymore.
bikecrate is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 03:57 PM
  #23  
Zedoo
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 304

Bikes: several

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
What is clear to me may be nonsense to anyone else, and vice versa. My tolerance of their nonsense is approximately proportional to their tolerance of my nonsense.
Zedoo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 04:17 PM
  #24  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,248

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5831 Post(s)
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Sorry, it was meant to be a joke (at the expense of our local wackos).

We're a household of scientists, so very little goes uncriticized.
I am an engineer amoung artists... most of the time it works... but when the "sheath cake" action starts... well things can hot and heavy.
genec is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-17, 04:21 PM
  #25  
genec
genec
Thread Starter
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,248

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5831 Post(s)
Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
Talking to someone else who has another viewpoint can help define your own position, but I'm not interested in trying to "convert" people who have already made up their minds and don't respect my opinion. I've had some discussions end with "you obviously don't know what you're talking about". I don't bother with them anymore.
Yeah, I can go that route, and often do... but with safety issues like the house wiring thing I mentioned... well someone has to speak up.
genec is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service