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Antenna Advice

Old 02-27-17, 10:37 AM
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Antenna Advice

I'm making progress Ditching Dish, at this point I'm trying to dial in my OTA HD.

I started with a $5 (i.e. disposable) passive antenna from fleabay. It pulled in a few channels real well, but not many.

Next step, $30 RCA amplified indoor antenna, it said "45 miles!". It was the cheapest amplified indoor antenna at Best Buy. I spent yesterday afternoon dragging around a long coax cable, running back and forth to the tv to do channel scans, looking for a placement that would pull in everything. No joy. (But def. better than the passive one)

So at this point the indoor antenna will be returned, and I need to decide whether to try next a more powerful (expensive) indoor antenna, or go outdoor.

Here are my TVFOOL results, all the channels I care about to the south. CBS/ABC are SW, and Fox/NBC/PBS are SSE. Furthest transmitter only 19 miles away. Also, I live in a valley, and there is a line of hills to my south, so there's no actual line of sight to any of them. (If you click on "KFMB-TV" or any other network in that TV-fool link, you can see a terrain profile). So I'm guessing my goal is to get a good clear view of the ridge that the signals are spilling over.

I live in a townhouse in a north/south oriented building. Two stories plus an attic. I tried putting the antenna up in the attic, I tried as high and south as I could (holding it up against the south wall near the peak of the roof -- see the red dot), but couldn't get all the channels.

Right now our Dish antenna is mounted on the east side (biggest red dot), coming off an eave and pointing a little east of south. If I mounted an outdoor antenna in the same place (and take advantage of the existing cabling), would the building totally obstruct the channels to the southwest?

I'm not sure whether our hoa is cool with rooftop antennas, I have to go out and look but I haven't noticed any others. I don't want to ask because, you know, forgiveness>permission. But I've heard that a chimney-top antenna is failproof.

I have a small patio on the east side, with a fence. If I ran a pole up high (attached to the fence), that would give about 8ft clearance from the house, allowing a little bit more southwesterly exposure (eastmost red dot). Would that help? (There's a 20ft palm tree that would help make that pole not so obvious/obtrusive)

What if I got permission from my southernmost neighbor to mount a HD antenna at the corner of her fence, where the building would not be an obstruction? Would it not need to be high?


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Old 02-27-17, 10:59 AM
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Oh, San Diego... good F'n luck... all the mesas tend to block RF signals, such as TV and cell... and you're in a valley, that doesn't help.

You need a tall antenna, ideally with a powered amp near the antenna... to overcome line losses going down the cable. If the amp is at the bottom, all you are doing is amplifing the noise.

There is a reason cable TV is so popular in San Diego... too bad the choices of providers is so poor, and dictated by that stupid north/south of the river rule... which kills competition.

The other issue is station location... a couple stations are located in Kearney Mesa, but they may be broadcasting from a different mountain top, one station is at 94 and 15, plus chan 6 comes from Mexico, (XETV) and any other station is broadcast from LA... good luck getting those. So your antenna has to point in different directions. See the problem now?
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Old 02-27-17, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Oh, San Diego... good F'n luck... all the mesas tend to block RF signals, such as TV and cell... and you're in a valley, that doesn't help.

You need a tall antenna, ideally with a powered amp near the antenna... to overcome line losses going down the cable. If the amp is at the bottom, all you are doing is amplifing the noise.

There is a reason cable TV is so popular in San Diego... too bad the choices of providers is so poor, and dictated by that stupid north/south of the river rule... which kills competition.

The other issue is station location... a couple stations are located in Kearney Mesa, but they may be broadcasting from a different mountain top, one station is at 94 and 15, plus chan 6 comes from Mexico, (XETV) and any other station is broadcast from LA... good luck getting those. So your antenna has to point in different directions. See the problem now?
Hmmm. CBS & ABC are coming from Mt Soledad in La Jolla (southwest), and everything else is way down in Mt Miguel (east of chula vista), SSE. I don't understand why they don't have TV towers on Mt Helix or Cowles Mtn, would be more central. Would an antenna pointed vaguely SSW not be able to pick up both of those? Does an outdoor antenna on the east wall have no chance due to building interference?

In my experiments with the indoor antenna, I have seen every channel very strong&clear, but never all at once. Can two antennas be combined by running a splitter backwards?
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Old 02-27-17, 11:15 AM
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Fox is not on XETV anymore. It used to be, but then there was a channel-scrambling, fox moved to KSWB, CW moved to XETV, and WB disappeared. And in a few months, CW is moving off mexican XETV and will be a new subchannel operated by our CBS affiliate KFMB, so I guess it will be like 8.4 or 8.5 or something.
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Old 02-27-17, 12:39 PM
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Altitude is your friend. Get as high as possible. I put an outdoor antenna on my garage after trying an attic antenna. Also added an amp. Oddly, before mounting it, I tried it at ground level just sitting on a garbage can in front of my house [which has steel siding]. It got great reception in that scenario. But when I mounted it on the garage, it didn't do as well. And that was with a 5' mast in a std tripod mount. Later, I re-mounted it on a 10' mast. All is well now. However, I am in a pretty flat area where trees leafing out is the biggest barrier to reception.

Alternatively, is there any chance you could mount it on the side of the structure facing the transmitters, thereby 'collecting/focusing' the signal better.
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Old 02-27-17, 01:23 PM
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The guy that installed the GFs antenna used the chimney or her single story home, that's the spot that usually he usually uses. It works great too.
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Old 02-27-17, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by skijor View Post
Altitude is your friend. Get as high as possible. I put an outdoor antenna on my garage after trying an attic antenna. Also added an amp. Oddly, before mounting it, I tried it at ground level just sitting on a garbage can in front of my house [which has steel siding]. It got great reception in that scenario. But when I mounted it on the garage, it didn't do as well. And that was with a 5' mast in a std tripod mount. Later, I re-mounted it on a 10' mast. All is well now. However, I am in a pretty flat area where trees leafing out is the biggest barrier to reception.

Alternatively, is there any chance you could mount it on the side of the structure facing the transmitters, thereby 'collecting/focusing' the signal better.
The west side would face the transmitters to the SW pretty well, but that's the front, I'm pretty sure HOA would notice and ban immediately. Plus I don't know if it would see to the SSE well. In the back, it would be much less obtrusive, and I'm hoping to get away with it.
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Old 02-27-17, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
The guy that installed the GFs antenna used the chimney or her single story home, that's the spot that usually he usually uses. It works great too.
Yeah, that's the installation I'm pretty confident would work but I'd like to avoid if possible. I'm not too excited about finding somewhere to borrow a big enough ladder, and then going up and down there a whole bunch of times to get it situated just right.

My wife is better with heights though
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Old 02-27-17, 02:29 PM
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My Father had a 40 foot mast with a rotor on it back in the analog era, and was able to point it one way for Sacramento Stations ,

and turn it another way and get all the San Francisco - Oakland stations..

[I have Cable, Spectrum the local duopoly, with Century Link the only other one, Phone-DSL..


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Old 02-27-17, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Hmmm. CBS & ABC are coming from Mt Soledad in La Jolla (southwest), and everything else is way down in Mt Miguel (east of chula vista), SSE. I don't understand why they don't have TV towers on Mt Helix or Cowles Mtn, would be more central. Would an antenna pointed vaguely SSW not be able to pick up both of those? Does an outdoor antenna on the east wall have no chance due to building interference?

In my experiments with the indoor antenna, I have seen every channel very strong&clear, but never all at once. Can two antennas be combined by running a splitter backwards?
Vaguely south would be your best bet to cover SSE and SSW. Getting outdoors and high up are your best bets.

You might be able to us an RV style omni antenna, but the "gain" of those is only about as good as that indoor antenna.

You can't combine signals using a splitter, the lead lengths and multipath of the RF hitting the two antennas will cause all sorts of phase errors that will result in some signal canceling, which will result in wierd "dropped blocks" for today's "digital" signal.

TINSTAAFL
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Old 02-27-17, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Vaguely south would be your best bet to cover SSE and SSW. Getting outdoors and high up are your best bets.

You might be able to us an RV style omni antenna, but the "gain" of those is only about as good as that indoor antenna.

You can't combine signals using a splitter, the lead lengths and multipath of the RF hitting the two antennas will cause all sorts of phase errors that will result in some signal canceling, which will result in wierd "dropped blocks" for today's "digital" signal.
Thanks, that's great info. BF/Foo is the best! Now who wants to get out there and climb on my roof?

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Old 02-27-17, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Yeah, that's the installation I'm pretty confident would work but I'd like to avoid if possible. I'm not too excited about finding somewhere to borrow a big enough ladder, and then going up and down there a whole bunch of times to get it situated just right.

My wife is better with heights though
We're in the near Chicago suburbs, and down here out neighbors behind the cheddar curtain to the north refer to us as "flatlanders" because the land is pretty flat. I didn't pay too much attention to what he was doing when he installed the antenna, but he wasn't up on the roof for too long. I figured he'd done enough to know which way to point the antenna and didn't need to be too accurate.
She gets a lot of stations with it too, and even factoring out the foreign language ones she's got more to watch now with a smart tv hooked up to the internet and the HD OTA stations.
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Old 02-27-17, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
... even factoring out the foreign language ones ...
I know right? I'm used to there being lots of spanish channels, at least around here, but I was surprised to find TWO korean channels! Somehow a 2nd korean channel sprung up before a first chinese, indian, ... many asian countries are well-represented here.
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Old 02-27-17, 09:53 PM
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Try a Mohu Leaf. By far the best I've tried. Everything else ranged from disappointing to a waste of money.

We got the passive Mohu Leaf 30 about 3 years ago. Works fine for our ground floor apartment. Occasionally weather seems to interfere a bit with some weaker channels, so I'll adjust the orientation. Sometimes I'll just lay it flat on the floor or a table near the window for tricky stations. Usually it just hangs in the window, between the blinds and the drapes.

The first Leaf antennas just looked like cheap diner place mats, something they'd serve food on at Denny's or IHOPs. Don't be fooled, though, they really work. It's all in the tech that goes inside that sheet of plastic.

Since we bought ours they've added larger and amplified antennas. Go for one of those, based on your description of your area.
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Old 02-28-17, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I know right? I'm used to there being lots of spanish channels, at least around here, but I was surprised to find TWO korean channels! Somehow a 2nd korean channel sprung up before a first chinese, indian, ... many asian countries are well-represented here.
You'd really be amazed at what is available around Freso...
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Old 02-28-17, 06:47 AM
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Don't you have any kids for whom climbing around on the roof would be a fun adventure?
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Old 02-28-17, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Don't you have any kids for whom climbing around on the roof would be a fun adventure?
Might expect a visit from Child Services or whatever though.
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Old 02-28-17, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Try a Mohu Leaf. By far the best I've tried. Everything else ranged from disappointing to a waste of money.

We got the passive Mohu Leaf 30 about 3 years ago. Works fine for our ground floor apartment. Occasionally weather seems to interfere a bit with some weaker channels, so I'll adjust the orientation. Sometimes I'll just lay it flat on the floor or a table near the window for tricky stations. Usually it just hangs in the window, between the blinds and the drapes.

The first Leaf antennas just looked like cheap diner place mats, something they'd serve food on at Denny's or IHOPs. Don't be fooled, though, they really work. It's all in the tech that goes inside that sheet of plastic.

Since we bought ours they've added larger and amplified antennas. Go for one of those, based on your description of your area.
Thx for the link, I'll look into it.
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Old 02-28-17, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
You'd really be amazed at what is available around Freso...
I was in Fresno last month for the CSU Fresno Geomatics dept student-run conference. The highlight of the trip was the visit to the Tioga-Sequoia tasting room. The IPA was good, but everybody does a good IPA nowadays. The Joaquin Murrietta chile beer was good, and unique, and the special edition Autumnus hazelnut double-brown blew my mind
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Old 02-28-17, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Don't you have any kids for whom climbing around on the roof would be a fun adventure?
Ha, I don't know that I trust them to drill a screw straight. It could be a good learning opportunity though, maybe after some practice on the ground with scrap wood?
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Old 02-28-17, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I know right? I'm used to there being lots of spanish channels, at least around here, but I was surprised to find TWO korean channels! Somehow a 2nd korean channel sprung up before a first chinese, indian, ... many asian countries are well-represented here.
Yeah, that's about what we found. There are several asian channels with subchannels, as well as Polish and some other european languages. Plus there's the ubiquitous shopping and jewelry channels as well as some channels you'd actually want to watch.
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Old 03-01-17, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Thx for the link, I'll look into it.
Speaking of links, you need to go to another forum that is all things antenna-- Over-The-Air (OTA) Digital Television - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums They are experts on bringing in distant stations. If you like DIY stuff you can get plans on there for their gold standard OTA builds or lots of info on store bought stuff.
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Old 03-01-17, 09:57 AM
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Nice, it's BF but about antennas!

I think I'm going to try to pick up a Mohu Sky from BestBuy and test that in the attic. Or maybe I should test a cheaper Leaf 50 first. If those don't work I'll post over at that ota forum and see what they recommend.
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Old 03-01-17, 10:33 AM
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An outdoor anything is a better bet, unless you live quite close to the signal source. The attic antenna I had got about 2/3 of the channels, and not very reliably. I am ~25 miles away.
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Old 03-01-17, 10:50 AM
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Yeah I'm sure, but I would REALLY like to keep everything indoors, avoid climbing up on the roof, risking HOA ire, dealing with cables routed from outside, ...

So in our N/S-oriented building, would it be more likely for an attic antenna to succeed if it were mounted at the north or south end of the attic? I kinda feel like if it's at the south end (below the red dot at the roof peak) its "view" to the south might be less 'obscured' by all the business with the opening for me&my neighbors' entryway, there's a louvered metal vent there, etc. On the other hand, at the north end is my heater.
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