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Old 01-10-18, 03:21 PM   #76
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Keeping in mind, that even if you refuse the update you will create a huge headache within the 10 enviro, and cause issue with future updating wanting to auto add it anyway. IMO, suck it up and deal with the update.
I don't run 10. 10 won't run the software I need.

And I don't want folks touching my monitor anyway... (the latest win software encourages the use of touch screens... which I laugh at, as I have always worked to keep folks from touching my damn screen when they want to make a point)

Sorry, no need for 10.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:24 PM   #77
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^ I would assume you are on 7 then, since 8 really sucks. With that, you will soon find yourself in an issue upgrading anyway as Microsoft decided to drop support for newer processors. With it coming to end of support life, it will also quit receiving updates anyway and this issue will be the least of your problems.

I loved 7 and wish that Windows had continued support for it further, but given it's popularity and what 10 is "giving back" to them in terms of spying, it made perfect sense.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:27 PM   #78
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But doesn't it make sense to share the contents of said memory when doing (attempting) "parallel processing?"

In some respects, this reminds me of different applications sharing .dll files.
Sharing a dll means multiple processes only reading the contents of a static file.
There is no info about a running process to be found there.

"parallel processing" can mean different things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing
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Old 01-10-18, 03:29 PM   #79
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^ I would assume you are on 7 then, since 8 really sucks. With that, you will soon find yourself in an issue upgrading anyway as Microsoft decided to drop support for newer processors. With it coming to end of support life, it will also quit receiving updates anyway and this issue will be the least of your problems.

I loved 7 and wish that Windows had continued support for it further, but given it's popularity and what 10 is "giving back" to them in terms of spying, it made perfect sense.
We see it in similar ways. My issue is my production software is usually way behind the OS... and with the 8 fiasco, they just didn't bother to update. Further, in the real world, 7 still rules, in spite of MS thinking 10 is the cat's meow.

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Old 01-10-18, 03:29 PM   #80
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Is it really a bug though? The chips have been designed in this manner for some time... primarily to keep operations fast in the CPU. It's just that "recently" it was discovered that there is a way to access that buffer and read it in a way to get information from the computer in a clandestine manner.

What if we discover a new way to gain access to computers in the future... some other normal design feature that can be exploited to gain access to your info... maybe the pulsing of the powersupply as read through the power lines, or something as innocuous as that. How are companies supposed to anticipate that later tech being able to dive into older designs in that manner. In a way, it is like busting a past Tour d France winner for using a drug that wasn't even being looked for, 10 years ago. (cycling forum... I get to use such metaphors... )

I'm just not sure this was a "design flaw" like the "divide error" was, in Pentiums, years ago.
Yes, it is a bug or design flaw.

If one claims the system has hardware separation of active processes, and in fact, it doesn't, then it is a bug.

If this is a process that probes what is supposed to be its own memory, and gets incorrect values returned, then it may well be just as significant as returning incorrect values to its calculations from the Intel FPU bug (which apparently only affected some users). Most of the time it operates on correct data, but every once in a while it is operating on incorrect data, and apparently allowing saving or transmitting this incorrect data.

No doubt there are many other ways to "steal" data that is stored on one's hard drive, but this one seems pretty significant, if only snagging a few bytes at a time.

We'll see how long until we start seeing a new batch of viruses targeted directly at the flaw.

It will take a month or so for the software updates to shake down and to really demonstrate the full extent of these bugs. Apparently different processors are immune to different attacks. So, AMD processors may be vulnerable to some attacks, but not to the extent that Intel processors are.

The post you quoted was about insider trading. Intel stocks have been pummeled this week. And rightfully so. I wouldn't buy a new computer this week until some of the dust settles, and would even consider cancelling existing orders that hadn't shipped. So short-term sales might suffer, even if planned computer purchases are simply postponed and happen later.

Likewise, if AMD patches have negligible impact on the end user, but Intel patches have a significant impact on performance, and Intel processors are significantly more vulnerable to more attacks, then the choice to purchase a future processor might steer one away from Intel. Again impacting stock values. Of course, it may be that the patches will be non processor specific, and impact all brands.

If this isn't satisfactorily patched through software, then a recall could potentially be extremely devastating to the company.

It may still spawn lawsuits. There have been successful class action lawsuits about lawn tractors that had the horsepower inflated or misrepresented. It is hard to say if a processor that has task switching issues and is unable to perform to expectations would fall under the same category. I suppose it would depend on whether the courts would deem that Intel had advertised actual performance that fell short, or had simply listed cache size, CPU speed, and etc, which is presumably correct (a good reason to not post direct comparison data which is often hard to track down).

Nonetheless, the CEO should have been informed of this potential flaw/bug last summer, and also known that it was being held confidential for a period of time. He should have directed resources to new chip design that avoids it, as well as potentially releasing new drivers or working with software vendors to create patches (while maintaining performance as much as possible). Testing and probing similar faults as there seem to be classes of potential attacks?

So, reducing his stocks to the minimal contractual requirements is extremely odd. Now, there could have been an explanation such as an unexpected expense such as buying/building a new primary residence. But, the numbers and timing just seems odd.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:29 PM   #81
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And I don't want folks touching my monitor anyway... (the latest win software encourages the use of touch screens... which I laugh at, as I have always worked to keep folks from touching my damn screen when they want to make a point)
I can appreciate that.
I've had to resist the urge to strangle idiots who can't discuss what is on the screen w/o smudging it up with their damned fingers.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:30 PM   #82
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Sharing a dll means multiple processes only reading the contents of a static file.
There is no info about a running process to be found there.

"parallel processing" can mean different things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing
I know... just using it as a metaphor. Thanks though.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:33 PM   #83
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I can appreciate that.
I've had to resist the urge to strangle idiots who can't discuss what is on the screen w/o smudging it up with their damned fingers.
Truly.

I usually hand them a little wooden pointer (dull pencil, no lead exposed) if they insist on pointing.

The real irony is that I often project to a big screen during design reviews... they have to use a laser there.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:33 PM   #84
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We see it in similar ways. My issue is my production software is usually way behind the OS... and with the 8 fiasco, they just didn't bother to update. Further, in the real world, 7 still rules, in spite of MS thinking 10 is the cat's meow.
Yup, worldwide 7 is still king, much like XP remained to be so long. A huge part of that is the fact that you can still Pirate 7. There have been attempts made to do so with 10, but none of them have outlasted the update/check in system in place.

Personally, I enjoy 10. It uses less resource once you physically go in and turn everything off and from an install perspective it's the 'bee's knees'. I would say that the only lasting thing I hate is the inability to disable certain features like Cortana, which is total ****. The other PITA part is that 10 simply won't play right w/o an internet connection. I HAD to go back to 7 for a friend who refuses to actually have internet service and still tethers though a phone from time to time.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:36 PM   #85
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Yup, worldwide 7 is still king, much like XP remained to be so long. A huge part of that is the fact that you can still Pirate 7. There have been attempts made to do so with 10, but none of them have outlasted the update/check in system in place.

Personally, I enjoy 10. It uses less resource once you physically go in and turn everything off and from an install perspective it's the 'bee's knees'. I would say that the only lasting thing I hate is the inability to disable certain features like Cortana, which is total ****.
Good news...There's a great tool for folks like me and you that want spyware crap killed:

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

Allows you to shut up most of the unneeded nonsense. Better still, it is freeware.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:46 PM   #86
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Yup, worldwide 7 is still king, much like XP remained to be so long. A huge part of that is the fact that you can still Pirate 7. There have been attempts made to do so with 10, but none of them have outlasted the update/check in system in place.

Personally, I enjoy 10. It uses less resource once you physically go in and turn everything off and from an install perspective it's the 'bee's knees'. I would say that the only lasting thing I hate is the inability to disable certain features like Cortana, which is total ****. The other PITA part is that 10 simply won't play right w/o an internet connection. I HAD to go back to 7 for a friend who refuses to actually have internet service and still tethers though a phone from time to time.
You just gave me two other reasons to avoid 10.

I hate having to deal with talking computers that really don't work like the computers on Star Trek, aaaaaand... I sail a small boat, and thus with one of my laptops, I am often out of internet range. A "confirming setup" might mess with my navigation tools. (and yes, I carry a back up SSD... so the installation of that would likely cause a call home for 10... yikes). (for redundancy, I also have 2 GPSs, paper charts and nav software on my phone)

Funny about this... all my non-sailing friends rave about the cloud... until I take them offshore in my little boat... and their music dies. (I play a little game without telling them... "hey, let's listen to your favorite music out here..." and plug their phone into my stereo system... until they are out of range of the cloud...)

My phone uses a removable 128GB memory chip, battery and SIM card.
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Old 01-10-18, 03:51 PM   #87
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But doesn't it make sense to share the contents of said memory when doing (attempting) "parallel processing?"

In some respects, this reminds me of different applications sharing .dll files.
The process should be able to control what memory is being shared, and with which other processes, and what is not being shared. I.E. Core OS memory should generally not be shared.

So, yes, if you're writing a program, one often creates "global variables" accessible by all parts of the program, and "local variables" accessible to just a single route.

That, in fact, is a major difference between different programming languages. Pascal likes to pass all variables between routines locally, while C likes to pass certain variables (strings and arrays) globally.

But, one should be able to specify what is shared or not.

Consider a workplace. Bob and Jane both have accounts on the primary server. They may choose to share some documents, but may choose to keep other documents private. Ignoring hard drive/memory differences, in theory, this Spectre/Meltdown allows Bob to see 100% of Jane's documents no matter what security was put in place, including if she has stored confidential info about herself.

Now, that may all be well and good among friends. However, consider that Bob is actually an unvetted guest worker given temporary access to certain files on the server, and now he sees all.

Unfortunately, the move for E-Mail and Web browsers was to give functionality to offsite servers on your own PC. It gives much more flexibility for website design. So, the next time you access BikeForums, realize that they're running scripts on your computer. Furthermore, BikeForums contracts with Google and Amazon which contracts with other companies to write scripts that eventually get executed on your machine without your knowledge.
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Old 01-10-18, 04:01 PM   #88
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Good news...There's a great tool for folks like me and you that want spyware crap killed:

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

Allows you to shut up most of the unneeded nonsense. Better still, it is freeware.
And, of course, like anything. Install a program on your computer, and you have to trust the software is actually doing what it says, and not running malicious software on your computer.

Nothing against this utility... but in general.

A similar package could either contain Spectre/Meltdown, or perhaps a future update would get pushed to your machine containing Spectre/Meltdown.

Of course, once on your machine, there may be other attacks possible including dumping your entire hard drive. Except, of course, those parts that you don't give read permission to.... Maybe.

However, part of the power of Spectre/Meltdown is potentially accessing data that would otherwise be restricted, as well as doing it from routines that should have minimal execution permissions (web browser).
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Old 01-10-18, 04:11 PM   #89
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And, of course, like anything. Install a program on your computer, and you have to trust the software is actually doing what it says, and not running malicious software on your computer.

Nothing against this utility... but in general.

A similar package could either contain Spectre/Meltdown, or perhaps a future update would get pushed to your machine containing Spectre/Meltdown.

Of course, once on your machine, there may be other attacks possible including dumping your entire hard drive. Except, of course, those parts that you don't give read permission to.... Maybe.

However, part of the power of Spectre/Meltdown is potentially accessing data that would otherwise be restricted, as well as doing it from routines that should have minimal execution permissions (web browser).
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGG!

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Old 01-10-18, 04:17 PM   #90
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ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGG!


I tend to agree. "Freeware" isn't free because of not having a catch. I try my very best not to use it whenever possible.
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Old 01-10-18, 04:42 PM   #91
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And, of course, like anything. Install a program on your computer, and you have to trust the software is actually doing what it says, and not running malicious software on your computer.

Nothing against this utility... but in general.

A similar package could either contain Spectre/Meltdown, or perhaps a future update would get pushed to your machine containing Spectre/Meltdown.

Of course, once on your machine, there may be other attacks possible including dumping your entire hard drive. Except, of course, those parts that you don't give read permission to.... Maybe.

However, part of the power of Spectre/Meltdown is potentially accessing data that would otherwise be restricted, as well as doing it from routines that should have minimal execution permissions (web browser).
You want to manually apply the reg edit entries. Go ahead and waste your time.

ShutUp10 dates back to the RTM of Win10 in 2015.
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Old 01-10-18, 08:03 PM   #92
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You want to manually apply the reg edit entries. Go ahead and waste your time.

ShutUp10 dates back to the RTM of Win10 in 2015.
I didn't mean that one in particular, but do one's own research on programs. There are many FREE antivirus and antispyware programs out there that are worse than the problem they're claiming to fix.

But, also quite a few really good ones.

Nonetheless, part of the issue with viruses is giving programs of unknown providence too much access. Now, a good antivirus has to have access to 100% of the machine to be effective, so necessarily some risk.

I hate installing Android programs that tell one that they need 3x more access than they really should need.
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Old 01-11-18, 12:25 AM   #93
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And, of course, like anything. Install a program on your computer, and you have to trust the software is actually doing what it says, and not running malicious software on your computer.

Nothing against this utility... but in general.

A similar package could either contain Spectre/Meltdown, or perhaps a future update would get pushed to your machine containing Spectre/Meltdown.

Of course, once on your machine, there may be other attacks possible including dumping your entire hard drive. Except, of course, those parts that you don't give read permission to.... Maybe.

However, part of the power of Spectre/Meltdown is potentially accessing data that would otherwise be restricted, as well as doing it from routines that should have minimal execution permissions (web browser).

Spectre and Meltdown are not programs or viruses, they are flaws of the processor (if you could even say that) which exploits MIGHT use to gain control of your computer.


They Are, however, highly speculative and reliant on some really silly operational errors on YOUR part.
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Old 01-12-18, 02:16 AM   #94
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Grrr...

In 30 years of windows development, why hasn't Microsoft learned to use the NICE function?

I was in the middle of a download tonight, and Windows just shut down. I'm not sure if it was a crash or a shutdown, but POW... Off.. then installed updates on reboot. The battery didn't appear discharged.

So, I restart my download....

An hour or two later, and I get slammed with another update. MSFT 100% network bandwidth. Nothing but the Microsoft updates getting through To the point where I think it even hosed my network connection for a few minutes (then the update resumed). I found the Microsoft update summary page, stuck at 3% And, of course, my download crashed.

One can apparently set when the computer is supposed to automatically reboot... maybe... but MSFT doesn't give one any control over it taking over Network or CPU cycles to do these tasks.

Or, say forcing MSFT to limit it to say 50% network or CPU bandwidth???
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Old 01-12-18, 07:08 AM   #95
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Grrr...

In 30 years of windows development, why hasn't Microsoft learned to use the NICE function?

I was in the middle of a download tonight, and Windows just shut down. I'm not sure if it was a crash or a shutdown, but POW... Off.. then installed updates on reboot. The battery didn't appear discharged.

So, I restart my download....

An hour or two later, and I get slammed with another update. MSFT 100% network bandwidth. Nothing but the Microsoft updates getting through To the point where I think it even hosed my network connection for a few minutes (then the update resumed). I found the Microsoft update summary page, stuck at 3% And, of course, my download crashed.

One can apparently set when the computer is supposed to automatically reboot... maybe... but MSFT doesn't give one any control over it taking over Network or CPU cycles to do these tasks.

Or, say forcing MSFT to limit it to say 50% network or CPU bandwidth???
You can throttle the bits use with Group Policy Editor:
https://superuser.com/questions/1039...windows-update

W10 has options to throttle Update bandwidth consumer side now:
https://www.windowscentral.com/windo...th-use-updates


The real WTF bit...

But...hey added, and defaulted ON, hive updates. So W10 systems by default are spreading W10 updates to everyone on your LAN and even back through your WAN--eating bandwidth allowance.
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Old 01-12-18, 07:21 AM   #96
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https://www.windowscentral.com/windo...th-use-updates


The real WTF bit...

But...hey added, and defaulted ON, hive updates. So W10 systems by default are spreading W10 updates to everyone on your LAN and even back through your WAN--eating bandwidth allowance.
You will be assimilated...
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Old 01-12-18, 07:31 AM   #97
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W10 has options to throttle Update bandwidth consumer side now:
https://www.windowscentral.com/windo...th-use-updates
Oh, just great.

1709 is the update that was slamming my PC

I'll look to see if I can find the policy editor.
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Old 01-13-18, 05:18 PM   #98
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I'm not gonna pretend to know more than the experts in the industry, so I'm letting Windows 10 run in default mode, including accepting all updates.

I'm seeing a new tone to the update notices -- not quite desperate or urgent, but with an unusual tone for mundane updates.

The one that just popped up a moment ago says: "Don't sleep on this update - we want you to have the latest improvements so Windows runs more securely."

If you've run Windows long enough, in every iteration, you'd recognize that as an unusual nudge, the sort of tone normally reserved for aftermarket anti-malware trying to upsell you to their premium product.

After getting the free upgrade from Windows 7 to 10 a couplafew years ago I made several modifications purported to enhance privacy. But I'm doubtful they're effective (it's almost impossible to completely remove or disable Cortana and still have a functioning Windows 10 OS). And my PC was becoming so sluggish it was unusable.

So I ditched that user profile and created another leaving everything in default mode. The laptop is running much better.

Privacy? Meh. When I needed a smartphone I realized I was giving up privacy in exchange for ready access to online stuff to manage my mom's health and financial affairs no matter where I was -- even on a bike ride far from home. There are still ways to protect privacy without getting squeamish about Windows 10.
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Old 01-14-18, 01:11 AM   #99
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Once I figured out how to safely delete old, unneeded kernels my Linux Mint finally updated and lo and behold the Intel microcode update didn't kill my Core2 6300? 1.86 GHz dual core one bit. That machine is an MPC, which went out of business in 2006 so if Intel expected me to rely on the manufacturer for assistance (hey HP!) they were DAFT.
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