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Any Foo philosophers?

Old 01-19-18, 09:50 AM
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chewybrian 
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Any Foo philosophers?

I wonder if enough people are interested in a philosophy discussion thread.



I was thinking we could take turns throwing out a concept for discussion once a week. Of course, politics and religion would be out, but lots of room is left for arguing (with respect). These are important and interesting subjects that are difficult to bring up in everyday life, despite their importance.



So, has philosophy influenced your life in any meaningful way? Are you interested in exploring new ideas? Or, do you just like to argue without being a jerk or pushing P+R?



Not holding my breath here, but if there seems to be enough interest, I'll start it off next week. Then, I'll pick one of the participants to choose the next topic (I suppose we could choose on the merit of their contribution, but we should try to give everyone their chances, too). Then, that moderator picks someone for the following week, and so on. The topics could be anything from a single sentence to an entire work, but the moderator should try to guide the discussion into something interesting and workable.



So, check in if you think you might be willing to participate, please.
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Old 01-19-18, 10:24 AM
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Philosophers at key periods in history make the values and beliefs of their civilizations. Between those periods it's a quiet hobby that may sometimes pay enough to be a job.
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Old 01-19-18, 10:52 AM
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I'm in.
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Old 01-19-18, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post

I think determinism, or more accurately the illusion of free will, is interesting. Why is it so ubiquitous? Is it an evolutionary adaptation, or is it simply a limitation of our information processing capability?
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Old 01-19-18, 11:36 AM
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Should be a dumpster fire up to the point it gets locked. Interested in what I suspect to be a short read.

IE a couple of posts in will be the ubiquitous "you're stupid/lying", or thinly veiled insult. This forum is commonly about a half step below Facebook for the prevalence of that manner of "discussion".
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Old 01-19-18, 11:41 AM
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I'm in before both the lock and the fire.
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Old 01-19-18, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I think determinism, or more accurately the illusion of free will, is interesting. Why is it so ubiquitous?
I would suggest it is due to the overwhelming success of Newtonian (classical) physics, which is 100% deterministic. Einstein's famous "God does not play dice", in reaction to indeterminism in quantum mechanics, shows how entrenched the idea is. (Even in quantum mechanics, the indeterministic outcomes are severely restricted in a deterministic manner.) It may also be a fallacy to assume Free Will requires indeterminism, i.e., they might not really be at odds.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I would suggest it is due to the overwhelming success of Newtonian (classical) physics, which is 100% deterministic.
But it long predates Newton. I'm not an expert on this, but isn't most classical thinking on morality (Aristotle) based on the idea of free will?
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Old 01-19-18, 12:09 PM
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Not sure. But one thing I do remember from many years ago was Plato's Parmenides was the only dialog where Socrates didn't prevail. (Parmenides was a strict Determinist who believed all change, including motion, was an illusion, and I guess Plato/Socrates could not come up with a definitive argument against it.)
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Old 01-19-18, 12:10 PM
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Wherever you go, there you are; and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
(my adopted philosophy when on the bike without spouse-imposed time limits)

Aside from that, I typically stick to the Mel Brooks style of Stand Up Philosophy.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pesty View Post
Aside from that, I typically stick to the Mel Brooks style of Stand Up Philosophy.
I think that is a philosophy that most can actually agree on.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:17 PM
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I would be happy to be an interested lurker!
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Old 01-19-18, 12:23 PM
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Tom is smiling "down" on this topic. He realized its only practical place is in PnR.
https://www.bikeforums.net/politics-...9-i-think.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/politics-...hilosophy.html

et al...
https://www.bikeforums.net/search.php?searchid=2521972
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Old 01-19-18, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by skijor View Post
He realized its only practical place is in PnR.
It would be great if we could have a Philosophy thread here that is accessible to everyone (i.e., including those like me who don't have access to P&R) that takes the high road (as this one has so far).
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Old 01-19-18, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by skijor View Post
How does the PnR forum work? I can read, but cannot comment.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
How does the PnR forum work? I can read, but cannot comment.
Users must request access to PnR. Same with Trollheim, if that's still even a thing. I never bothered with the latter.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
It would be great if we could have a Philosophy thread here that is accessible to everyone (i.e., including those like me who don't have access to P&R) that takes the high road (as this one has so far).
Agreed. But touchy subjects inevitably meet their fate--sent to PnR or are just closed/locked. It is what it is.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:58 PM
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OK, here is a hypothetical problem:

A bridge collapses and kills several people. An investigation uncovers the ultimate cause. The bridge was built with a structural defect due to a design that was predicated on a theorem in geometry whose proof was subsequently found to contain an error. When the error in the proof was corrected, simulations revealed that a bridge constructed based on the corrected theorem would not have collapsed.

Did the error in the proof exist before it was discovered?

Do logical proofs have an existence independent of the paper (or whatever) they are written on?

If all the books that contain the proof were to be destroyed, would the proof still exist?
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Old 01-19-18, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
OK, here is a hypothetical problem:

A bridge collapses and kills several people. An investigation uncovers the ultimate cause. The bridge was built with a structural defect due to a design that was predicated on a theorem in geometry whose proof was subsequently found to contain an error. When the error in the proof was corrected, simulations revealed that a bridge constructed based on the corrected theorem would not have collapsed.

Did the error in the proof exist before it was discovered?

Do logical proofs have an existence independent of the paper (or whatever) they are written on?

If all the books that contain the proof were to be destroyed, would the proof still exist?
Yes, yes, yes. errors exist independent of thought, thought exists independent of paper.
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Old 01-19-18, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
OK, here is a hypothetical problem:

A bridge collapses and kills several people. An investigation uncovers the ultimate cause. The bridge was built with a structural defect due to a design that was predicated on a theorem in geometry whose proof was subsequently found to contain an error. When the error in the proof was corrected, simulations revealed that a bridge constructed based on the corrected theorem would not have collapsed.

Did the error in the proof exist before it was discovered?

Do logical proofs have an existence independent of the paper (or whatever) they are written on?

If all the books that contain the proof were to be destroyed, would the proof still exist?
Does the stated fact that several people were killed when the bridge collapsed change any of the philosophical argument?
Or is this a trolley problem in disguise?
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Old 01-19-18, 01:25 PM
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I'm not sure what a "trolly problem" is.

The idea that a proof (or a number, or an idea) has an objective existence apart from the paper or book it is written on is a classic problem for Realism and Materialism. The idea is something is real if you can kick it, and it kicks back. In this case, the flaw in the proof (and thus the proof) can be argued to be real because they have real life and death consequences. But what does it mean for something to be real if it has no mass, no energy, etc.? Aren't we ascribing some sort of metaphysical property to it?
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Old 01-19-18, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I'm not sure what a "trolly problem" is.

The idea that a proof (or a number, or an idea) has an objective existence apart from the paper or book it is written on is a classic problem for Realism and Materialism. The idea is something is real if you can kick it, and it kicks back. In this case, the flaw in the proof (and thus the proof) can be argued to be real because they have real life and death consequences. But what does it mean for something to be real if it has no mass, no energy, etc.? Aren't we ascribing some sort of metaphysical property to it?
We're using physical systems (neurons, electrons, cellulose and pigment, etc.) to describe metaphysics. There is no metaphysics without physics. Information is physical. We can imagine information without matter, but that imagining is a physical process.
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Old 01-19-18, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I'm not sure what a "trolly problem" is.

The idea that a proof (or a number, or an idea) has an objective existence apart from the paper or book it is written on is a classic problem for Realism and Materialism. The idea is something is real if you can kick it, and it kicks back. In this case, the flaw in the proof (and thus the proof) can be argued to be real because they have real life and death consequences. But what does it mean for something to be real if it has no mass, no energy, etc.? Aren't we ascribing some sort of metaphysical property to it?
Trolley problem is more about ethics than philosophy; you've probably heard it before, it's famous and googleable.

Anyway, the stated fact that the bridge fell down is consequence enough for your existence argument, even if no one was killed - so I wondered if there were a hidden meaning in presenting it.
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Old 01-19-18, 01:51 PM
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so would the end result be foolosophy?
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Old 01-19-18, 02:03 PM
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Eventually we will realize the answer is 42.
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