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Writing shorter posts...

Old 08-21-18, 10:05 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
From the movie "Amadeus"

EMPEROR: Well, Herr Mozart! A good effort. Decidedly that. An excellent effort! You've shown us something quite new today….

EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes.

MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are required. Neither more nor less

EMPEROR: My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear in the course of an evening. I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court Composer?

SALIERI: Yes! yes! er, on the whole, yes, Majesty

MOZART: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

EMPEROR: Well. There it is.
Originally Posted by Colnago Mixte View Post
Never saw the movie, what are they wearing?
.
The Emperor is on the far left, Mozart is next to him, and Salieri next to Mozart.

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Old 08-21-18, 10:40 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I prefer to do that before posting, and remove half of it. It's almost always an improvement.
Case in point: Remove half of it. It's always an improvement.
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Old 08-21-18, 11:37 PM
  #53  
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Twain DID say, “Eschew surplusage.”

Stephen King wrote a writing book a few years ago that is pretty good. The takeaway I remember from that is never use adverbs. I took a “risk communication” class maybe 15 years ago that improved my slides a lot. So did the sidebar from the Columbia accident investigation about Power Point and how it forces you to give a pitch instead of be informative.

I find if I pare it down too much people think I’m angry or mean. They pretty much think that anyhow. Maybe they’re right.


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Old 08-22-18, 02:28 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Case in point: Remove half of it. It's always an improvement.
Well, maybe? Sometimes when you remove too much of your message you also change its meaning. As it is in all forms of communication, writing is a fine art, and it take practice and skill to say what need to say using just a few words. Of course, that also depends greatly on your audience. Some are more perspicacious than others.
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Old 08-22-18, 02:45 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Tl;dr
Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Tl;dnr
Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
You have been reported to the Office of Redundancy Office.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
At least twice.
Ahhh hahahahaha! I tried to leave a post that was 0% my own writing, get it? And then this happened:
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Old 08-22-18, 04:46 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Are these examples of the short post? OP never really defined it. OP?...

In other news, I just wrote a long post in another thread, but like I said earlier, it can be excused if its within a specialty thread. There's also that "white space" rule I remember from graphic design class, to help readers get through it.
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Sometimes when you remove too much of your message you also change its meaning. As it is in all forms of communication, writing is a fine art, and it take practice and skill to say what need to say using just a few words.

Of course, that also depends greatly on your audience. Some are more perspicacious than others
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
(from a now-closed thread in 2013) I only read the threads and posts that interest me. If I'm particularly interested in the content then I'm motivated to read no matter how long. It takes some time to write a properly composed long post, and I take my chances that my expenditure of time might connect with another interested reader.

For me, the art of composition is to make my posts easy to read, particularly if they are “long,” Paragraph breaks are certainly key tool to do that-- seven lines maximum. I would suggest that three such paragraphs would constitute a “long” post, excluding textbox quotations.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Furthermore, while even if nobody reads my posts, I do try to communicate clearly to the reader. At least I try to evenly space, and keep my paragraphs short for easier readability, FWIW.
Paragraphs for me are an essential component for written communication.

Incidentally, have posted to a few threads:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
(from another now-closed thread) ...I think I have absorbed all the good advice I can for a complete and agreeable cycling lifestyle, and recently I have clicked on many fewer threads than before…

I’m not especially motivated to read or write about rides in areas I will never visit, or bikes I would not buy. Other cyclists’ biking stories are often meaningful to me, but usually not consequential enough for a reply.

Frankly, now my main enjoyment is reading the personal clashes on the various threads
In 2013, I got involved in one of the most hostile brouhahas I have ever read on BikeForums…about paragraphs! My adversary shall remain nameless.

On a now-closed thread in a reply to a long, unbroken post I wrote:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Paragraphs, please.

PS: I did read your post, in its entirety.
Originally Posted by xxx
I wouldn't spend near as much time with you in person, let alone stop for paragraphs. ****, I might even let go of punctuation in person, except when you feel the heel of my boot hit your chin
Complete with a graphic illustration.


Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-22-18 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 08-22-18, 05:01 AM
  #57  
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Had no idea our President once wrestled professionally.

Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Case in point: Remove half of it. It's always an improvement.
Keep removing stuff until the post no longer makes sense, then when you reach that point, add back the part you just took away and call it good.
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Old 08-22-18, 05:36 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Jim from somewhere between New Jersey and Vermont gave us a post which is more than one foot long---about short posts..

The rest of you just need to surrender and bow down.
Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Wow. That is masterful. I've always thought it was just self-indulgent and convoluted, but now I see that they are really performance art.

Bravo, sir. Bravo.
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Case in point: Remove half of it. It's always an improvement.
Originally Posted by Colnago Mixte View Post
Keep removing stuff until the post no longer makes sense, then when you reach that point, add back the part you just took away and call it good.
I am an Artiste, and I have posted:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
From the movie "Amadeus"…

MOZART: So then you like it? You really like it, Your Majesty?

EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and then - it gets a touch elaborate.

EMPEROR: Well, I mean occasionally it seems to have, how shall one say? [he stops in difficulty; turning to Orsini-Rosenberg] How shall one say, Director?...

EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes.

MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are required. Neither more nor less

MOZART: But this is absurd!

EMPEROR: My dear, young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Cut a few and it will be perfect.

MOZART: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

EMPEROR: Well. There it is.
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Sometimes when you remove too much of your message you also change its meaning. As it is in all forms of communication, writing is a fine art, and it take practice and skill to say what need to say using just a few words.

Of course, that also depends greatly on your audience. Some are more perspicacious than others.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-22-18 at 06:31 AM. Reason: added quote by KraneXL
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Old 08-22-18, 08:20 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Case in point: Remove half of it. It's always an improvement.
I see what you did there: 16 words down to 8. Clever! And True!
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Old 08-22-18, 08:26 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
I took a “risk communication” class maybe 15 years ago that improved my slides a lot. So did the sidebar from the Columbia accident investigation about Power Point and how it forces you to give a pitch instead of be informative.
I took a class from Melissa Marshall because my work brought her in for a seminar. Fantastic. The framework for slide design she teaches is the Assertion-Evidence Model. Bullets kill, PPT is a visual, not verbal/textual medium. Use your mouth for the verbal message, and use PPT for the visual message. Every slide should have a title which is an Assertion (full sentence that makes a claim), not just a Topic ('this is a subject I'm going to ramble on about for a while'). The main content of the slide should be Evidence for the Assertion, presented visually, for you to talk about; perhaps with small textual or graphical callouts/arrows/etc.
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Old 08-22-18, 08:45 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
Do you ever read your old posts and think to yourself that you should have written half the amount?
No
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Old 08-22-18, 09:15 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
...I took a “risk communication” class maybe 15 years ago that improved my slides a lot. So did the sidebar from the Columbia accident investigation about Power Point and how it forces you to give a pitch instead of be informative.
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I took a class from Melissa Marshall because my work brought her in for a seminar. Fantastic.

The framework for slide design she teaches is the Assertion-Evidence Model. Bullets kill, PPT is a visual, not verbal/textual medium. Use your mouth for the verbal message, and use PPT for the visual message. Every slide should have a title which is an Assertion (full sentence that makes a claim), not just a Topic ('this is a subject I'm going to ramble on about for a while')

The main content of the slide should be Evidence for the Assertion, presented visually, for you to talk about; perhaps with small textual or graphical callouts/arrows/etc.
Beyond college and graduate school, I took a course on “Oral Communication in the Organization” at the Harvard Extension School (before Power Point) and a Fred Pryor Seminar, “Business Writing for Results.”

I had read somewhere that the usual bulleted Power Point style of presentation, does "stultify" and restrict communication.

BTW, @RubeRad, I took the liberty of paragraphing your post. I do that in my professional writing when quoting, adding the disclaimer "(paragraph breaks added)."

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-22-18 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 08-22-18, 09:48 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
BTW, @RubeRad, I took the liberty of paragraphing your post. I do that in my professional writing when quoting, adding the dsiclaimer "(paragraph breaks added)."
It is better that way.
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Old 08-22-18, 10:12 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...BTW, @RubeRad, I took the liberty of paragraphing your post. I do that in my professional writing when quoting, adding the dsiclaimer "(paragraph breaks added)."
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
It is better that way.
I do so with some trepidation (from a now-closed thread in 2013):
Originally Posted by xxx
I rarely find qroupthink interesting other than as a phenomena, and I'll rarely just pile on in an informational answer to a question, unless there is some nuance that could or should be flushed out further or added to discourse. i don't think everyone comes here for companionship, but don't begrudge those that do, until that gets in the way of real, good, and whole information that may involve confrontation and debate. The difference between in-person and on-the-net is the amount of inter-personal relationship sought by engaging in the activity. Some seek more of a relationship on the net, but that usually is what leads to more in-person relationships like going on a ride together or something. You can certainly swap info either way, but the goodness of online(and written) communication is that it minimizes the ego content even if it appears to heighten it at the same time, by keeping the focus on the info rather than the personality. In other words, I've seen a lot of gurus out on the trail, but as soon as they get online, their egos and experience have to be backed by good ideas. Some of the issues people have with attitudes are due to the fact that online interaction is in the form of written word, which is inherently sharper and matter of fact. This is what led to the use of smileys since the inception of the medium. But if you're on a forum, it's a back and forth discussion format, not just an encyclopedia or bulletin board, dating site, etc
Originally Posted by another subscriber
I see.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Here's my interpretation, paragraphed only:
Originally Posted by xxx
Irarely find qroupthink interesting other than as a phenomena, and I'll rarely just pile on in an informational answer to a question, unless there is some nuance that could or should be flushed out further or added to discourse. i don't think everyone comes here for companionship, but don't begrudge those that do, until that gets in the way of real, good, and whole information that may involve confrontation and debate.

The difference between in-person and on-the-net is the amount of inter-personal relationship sought by engaging in the activity. Some seek more of a relationship on the net, but that usually is what leads to more in-person relationships like going on a ride together or something.

You can certainly swap info either way, but the goodness of online(and written) communication is that it minimizes the ego content even if it appears to heighten it at the same time, by keeping the focus on the info rather than the personality. In other words, I've seen a lot of gurus out on the trail, but as soon as they get online, their egos and experience have to be backed by good ideas.

Some of the issues people have with attitudes are due to the fact that online interaction is in the form of written word, which is inherently sharper and matter of fact. This is what led to the use of smileys since the inception of the medium. But if you're on a forum, it's a back and forth discussion format, not just an encyclopedia or bulletin board, dating site, etc.
Originally Posted by xxx
I wouldn't spend near as much time with you in person, let alone stop for paragraphs. ****, I might even let go of punctuation in person, except when you feel the heel of my boot hit your chin.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-24-18 at 04:23 AM. Reason: added RubeRad quote
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Old 08-23-18, 12:58 AM
  #65  
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PPT in design engineering is used for a lot of documentation when it really shouldn't be. We still have specifications and drawings and planning, but there are hardly any long form reports any more, it's all ppt. I might do a trade study to optimize something but probably no one is ever going to look at it again, the output of it is what people need to know. So I do have to put everything I want to tell people on the slide. And I need to do that well, or Columbia burns up...

https://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q...?msg_id=0001yB


The big take-away from the risk communication course was about organizing information for easy digestion - sound bytes are nine syllables, tell people things in threes, two positives are required to cancel out a negative. There was also a lot about preparing hard for a presentation or interview, Major examples were Rudy Giuliani's first post-9/11 press conference which had been scripted years in advance for Generic NYC Tragedy, and Schwarzkopf's interview with iirc Diane Sawyer where he cried on cue, and a talk show where an executive was blithely dismissive about the dangers of breast implants and it instantly wrecked his company's credibility. This field is not usually called "Risk Communication," if you Google that you'll find a lot of stuff about how the CDC or whoever tells the public about problems. I'm not sure what the right name is. It's a subset of crisis management
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Old 08-23-18, 01:11 AM
  #66  
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Wow! Some good honest discussion going on here. Good job!

If you're afraid of looking at old posts, you have a problem.

Just because I've put on some weight, doesn't mean I stop looking in the mirror or at old pictures. If I can't take ownership of myself and my actions, that's messed up.

We're adults. We should be able to admit mistakes and learn from them.
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Old 08-23-18, 06:33 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
(1) Do you ever read your old posts

(2) and think to yourself that you should have written half the amount? Sometimes I'm too verbose.
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Sometimes,
Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post
Yes.
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Nope…
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup….
Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
meh
Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
No
I think that all the above replies respond to the second part of the OP, but I am replying to the first part, "Do you ever read your old posts":
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…I have been an avid cyclist, as a lifestyle since about 1972…I happened serendipitously on Bike Forums in 2008, and it was frankly incredible to find a community that shared so many concerns I had kept to myself as a lone cyclist.

This enthusiasm has definitely increased my enjoyment of cycling. As far as improving it, what I have gotten directly from BF [include]:…the opportunity to post and literally "journal" my thoughts and activities about cycling and lifestyle (even if nobody else reads them), but which I wouldn't write down otherwise…:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…So with my experiences in cycling, and my frequent posting over the years, if I have replied on a recurrent topic, written to my satisfaction, I’ll just quote it.

A further challenge then becomes finding the post
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
(From a now-closed thread) I think that the use of quote boxes, which I have not seen elsewhere is a remarkable way to graphically diagram a dialogue.

Personally for me, as a diversion, it’s challenging to arrange the quotes, and to find them in prior threads
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
You are not the only poster who likes to use BF and LCF as a place to post a diary of personal thoughts or so-called "lifestyle" activities. In fact some threads on LCF are dominated by one posters's personal blogging notes and photos.

Probably can't find too many people to sit through "What I did on My Vacation" or "What I did on My Weekend" slide shows anymore, even when accompanied with commentary.

I thought that is what Facebook or blogs was for but apparently that outlet is not suitable for all.
Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00 View Post
Wow! Some good honest discussion going on here. Good job!

If you're afraid of looking at old posts, you have a problem...

We're adults. We should be able to admit mistakes and learn from them .
So replying to threads becomes a way to re-read my “Journal,” reminisce, and learn. Aren't those reasons to keep a Journal? E.g. 10 Surprising Benefits You’ll Get From Keeping a Journal (link).

On a Living Car Free thread was another discussion about reading old posts...a dust-up about deleting (others') past posts:
Originally Posted by Machka View Post
You're right, I did start a thread like that.
You're also right that you could not find it.
I deleted it. .
Originally Posted by Roody View Post
I contributed to that thread, my thoughts and ideas that I took some time to type out. How dare you delete the thread without permission of those who contributed?

I think this is outrageous. You have no right! How were you able to even do that?
Originally Posted by winston63 View Post
I've got to admit I find it very surprising that a thread starter can delete a thread…

To be honest I'm not all that comfortable with the thought that a thread starter can just delete someone's contribution at will.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
So if may pose this question, What is the value or utility to you of looking up old posts/threads? I would assume that any useful information would be utilized soon after reading.

Early on after joining Bike Forums I copied and filed a few posts for their content and style, but not for years.
Originally Posted by Machka View Post
...you do realise that everything you post here is temporary, right? I've been here long enough for there to be several server changes during which time posts were lost. And it won't be long before this forum disappears entirely ... say, maybe, 5 years or 10 years.

If you think what you typed had some "Voice of God" like value, you should have saved a copy of it.
Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Comments on a forum, like life, are merely temporary. Like Rowan says ... discussions here are like those which might occur in a pub. They aren't doctoral theses.

However, if there are comments I make which I think I might use again, I save them in a file. Then I copy and paste them into threads as desired….
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
I too am shocked that an OP can delete a thread. Sometimes I consult past threads for research I or others have previously done on some topic under discussion; and sometimes I see posts that are very well written and thought out and I would go as far as saying they are literary contributions that deserve to be archived for posterity
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Whenold posts/threads are looked up and commented on by one poster, it gives another poster on LCF an opportunity to bellyache about referencing so-called zombie threads.

Such earnest complaints are always entertaining.
FWIW

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-23-18 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 08-23-18, 07:28 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I think that all the above replies respond to the second part of the OP, but I am replying to the first part, "Do you ever read your old posts": So replying to threads becomes a way to re-read my “Journal,” reminisce, and learn. Aren't those reasons to keep a Journal? E.g. 10 Surprising Benefits You’ll Get From Keeping a Journal (link).

On a Living Car Free thread was another discussion about reading old posts...a dust-up about deleting (others) past threads:[color=#333333]FWIW
Ok
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Old 08-23-18, 08:16 AM
  #69  
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..
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I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
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Old 08-23-18, 11:25 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
..
Shortest post ever.
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Old 08-23-18, 12:12 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00 View Post
We're adults.
Debatable re: some.
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Old 08-23-18, 10:06 PM
  #72  
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Exceedingly so.
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Old 08-27-18, 08:44 AM
  #73  
RubeRad
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
I love Tufte too, I have his book Visual Display of Quantitative Information and have read it a couple times.
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Old 08-27-18, 06:58 PM
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KraneXL
 
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Shortest post ever.
So short there is no message. Or is there...?
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