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Boeing 737 Max 8 Killed another 157 People. WTH?

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Boeing 737 Max 8 Killed another 157 People. WTH?

Old 03-10-19, 02:12 PM
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Boeing 737 Max 8 Killed another 157 People. WTH?

SMARTEN up you guys. The faulty airspeed indicator AGAIN caused the computer to automatically force the nose down, before the plane has enough altitude to do ANYTHING. And the problem AGAIN had warnings 4 times previous. Time to ground these damned planes.
RIP
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Old 03-10-19, 06:19 PM
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Sad news indeed.
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Old 03-10-19, 06:21 PM
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Wasn't the 737 the first plane designed completely in CAD, without a prototype... oops!

No... I'm wrong, that was the 777.
3D CAD and the 757

Wow, Catia... hmmm.
So, can't blame CAD for 737 issues, right??
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Old 03-10-19, 06:21 PM
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Maybe they should let the pilots fly the plane below 10,000 feet.
Same BS happened when the first A320 plane landed in the forest at the Paris airshow. Computer said he was too low and had to land.

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 03-10-19 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 03-10-19, 06:38 PM
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Yeah, they can roll out (projected) statistics all they want when automating every little thing on an aircraft, but you can't beat a trained human brain when things don't go right.
At least perfect the automation on unmanned aircraft for a few years first.
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Old 03-10-19, 07:09 PM
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This is unusual.

My dad worked in autopilots, from the age of mechanical gyroscopes to the age of GPS. Safety was always the very top priority. The standards are high. When an airplane crashes the investigation is thorough.

In the news coverage of the Lion Air crash I noted something different. There was a degree of national pride causing finger pointing at a high level. Indonesia refuses to be painted as second-rate. If it had been a US airline, or a European airline’s Airbus, there wouldn’t have been.
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Old 03-10-19, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
SMARTEN up you guys. The faulty airspeed indicator AGAIN caused the computer to automatically force the nose down, before the plane has enough altitude to do ANYTHING. And the problem AGAIN had warnings 4 times previous. Time to ground these damned planes.
RIP
I hadn’t read any news related to the cause of the Ethiopian crash. Do you know this was the cause or just a guess. Link ?
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Old 03-10-19, 07:29 PM
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I saw it mentioned somewhere about the erratic rollercoaster fight pattern and past problems. After the Lion Air crash, it's 99% obvious to me.
Both planes had 1,200 hours also. There is a design FLAW. The plane HAD to be intact when it hit the ground and made that hole, with nothing but little scraps.
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Old 03-10-19, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
I saw it mentioned somewhere about the erratic rollercoaster fight pattern and past problems. After the Lion Air crash, it's 99% obvious to me.
Both planes had 1,200 hours also. There is a design FLAW. The plane HAD to be intact when it hit the ground and made that hole, with nothing but little scraps.
There was a good article in The NY Times today about the Max and the modified flight control software needed to compensate for larger and different engines. The article also indicates possibly similar erratic up and down flight issues on the Ethiopian flight and the suspicion is potentially the same problem as on the Lion Air crash.

Boeing may be in a world of hurt over this. Some airlines have already grounded the plane.

And that seems to be all that’s known at this time.
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Old 03-10-19, 08:19 PM
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Scroll down to the vertical speed graphs.
Obviously, pitch was out of control, just like Lion Air.

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/f...es-flight-302/
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Old 03-10-19, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Scroll down to the vertical speed graphs.
Obviously, pitch was out of control, just like Lion Air.

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/f...es-flight-302/
Nice find there. I sure haven't looked for these sites. I have just watched the crash docs on TV, that used to be made.
They are already digging up the ground, not very bright for the investigation.

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Old 03-10-19, 09:45 PM
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According to headlines, Chinese airlines have been advised to ground their Max 8s.
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Old 03-10-19, 09:59 PM
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The problem has been that pilots have not been fully trained to handle the changes to the Max 8 systems. Not all pilots flying the planes have had problems because they knew how to spot the problem and override the system. The Lion Air flight was a case where lack of this knowledge was likely fatal. This is the second such stall warning catastrophe in 5 months it is believed (Lion Air being the first back in October 2018).

The cargo 767 that crashed into water in Texas last month was reported by witnesses to have the engines surging prior to it nosediving. The flight recorders have been recovered and the data is being analyzed in that incident, the cause has not been finally determined.
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Old 03-11-19, 01:42 AM
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I will stick to riding my bike and my fire breathing 5.7 hemi 4x4 Ram truck. I control both and if my demise becomes then atleast I was at the controls. The 737 Max has serious issues and that is all I have to say
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Old 03-11-19, 02:00 AM
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Another case of a 'puter "smarter" than us.

My damn "Text Now" android software is like sitting in English class with a prim and proper teacher.

Last edited by Zinger; 03-11-19 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 03-11-19, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
This is unusual.

My dad worked in autopilots, from the age of mechanical gyroscopes to the age of GPS. Safety was always the very top priority. The standards are high. When an airplane crashes the investigation is thorough.

In the news coverage of the Lion Air crash I noted something different. There was a degree of national pride causing finger pointing at a high level. Indonesia refuses to be painted as second-rate. If it had been a US airline, or a European airline’s Airbus, there wouldn’t have been.
True, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B testing certification should prevent these failures. Will see what the root cause analysis reveals ...
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Old 03-11-19, 10:00 AM
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We were on a Southwest MAX 8 in December, they have 34 of them (per Wiki, not sure of exact number). You would think they'd have an issue, unless it really is a training thing.
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Old 03-11-19, 10:34 AM
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As per what I read in the Times, and concerning the angle of attack sensors:

"In designing the 737 Max, Boeing decided to feed M.C.A.S. (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) with data from only one of the two angle of attack sensors at a time, depending on which of two, redundant flight control computers — one on the captain’s side, one on the first officer’s side — happened to be active on that flight. That decision kept the system simpler, but also left it vulnerable to a single malfunctioning sensor, or data improperly transferred from it — as appeared to occur on the day of the crash. There is no evidence that Boeing did flight-testing of M.C.A.S. with erroneous sensor data, and it is not clear whether the F.A.A. did so.
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Old 03-11-19, 10:38 AM
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Boeing KC version of the 767 tanker for the American Air Force, (but not the older Japanese or Italian Air Force versions) Were all grounded recently for tools & manufacturing debris in the fuel tanks. The Air Force just took delivery of the first one a few months ago.

They also had a panel fly off a 777 at Paine Field on first flight a few months ago too.

Right now, the company has plans to let attrition eliminate 800 Quality Assurance jobs according to the local news paper. I wonder how many of those exist on paper but are currently unfilled.

Sounds like a brilliant plan.
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Old 03-11-19, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
As per what I read in the Times, and concerning the angle of attack sensors:

"In designing the 737 Max, Boeing decided to feed M.C.A.S. (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) with data from only one of the two angle of attack sensors at a time, depending on which of two, redundant flight control computers — one on the captain’s side, one on the first officer’s side — happened to be active on that flight. That decision kept the system simpler, but also left it vulnerable to a single malfunctioning sensor, or data improperly transferred from it — as appeared to occur on the day of the crash. There is no evidence that Boeing did flight-testing of M.C.A.S. with erroneous sensor data, and it is not clear whether the F.A.A. did so.
That's kind of scary. The brain gets neurological input from 3 sources, and uses the 2 best to determine your position and to help with balance to avoid dizzyness etc... You think the aircraft designers would do something similar.
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Old 03-11-19, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Boeing KC version of the 767 tanker for the American Air Force, (but not the older Japanese or Italian Air Force versions) Were all grounded recently for tools & manufacturing debris in the fuel tanks. The Air Force just took delivery of the first one a few months ago.

They also had a panel fly off a 777 at Paine Field on first flight a few months ago too.

Right now, the company has plans to let attrition eliminate 800 Quality Assurance jobs according to the local news paper. I wonder how many of those exist on paper but are currently unfilled.

Sounds like a brilliant plan.
767 was a dud commercially so Boeing refocused it as a military plane. It's a military dud now. I'm a little worried that the aircraft makers are becoming like 70s Detroit Aerospace.
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Old 03-11-19, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
Maybe they should let the pilots fly the plane below 10,000 feet.
Same BS happened when the first A320 plane landed in the forest at the Paris airshow. Computer said he was too low and had to land.
Because they can't. Designers are pushing the limits of aerodynamics so it requires some computer assist. This article explains it.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-...a-how-to-know/




What is really frightening about this article (if true ) is this:

Boeing and the FAA decided pilots did not need to be informed about the change to the flight control system. The Times reported Boeing and regulators decided against informing pilots at least in part to minimize the costs of retraining pilots.

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Old 03-11-19, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
767 was a dud commercially so Boeing refocused it as a military plane. It's a military dud now. I'm a little worried that the aircraft makers are becoming like 70s Detroit Aerospace.
Arguable. It was Boeing’s first long range twin engine. Sold 1100 or so, easily twice as many as Airbus’s A300, their first twin engine. FedEx has over 100, Delta is still using 77 and UPS ordered 4 last year.
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Old 03-11-19, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
767 was a dud commercially so Boeing refocused it as a military plane. It's a military dud now. I'm a little worried that the aircraft makers are becoming like 70s Detroit Aerospace.
I disagree that it was a dud commercially. IIRC they sold over 1000 of them, predominantly they fly as freighters filling in just under the 777 for short haul (~4000 miles) cargo making it ideal for cross continent or cross ocean transport. A role they fill exceedingly well judging by Amazon, FedEx, UPS fleets. Market competition on all sides by Airbus did put the squeeze on the role & sales slowed in part because everyone who wanted one, bought one.

Fwiw: 1000 767's makes it a little more than half as popular as a 777 and 1/6th as popular as the most popular airplane in the world, the 737.
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Old 03-11-19, 11:37 PM
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Singapore just banned them from flying at their airport.
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