Go Back  Bike Forums > The Lounge > Foo
Reload this Page >

Oracle lost its copyright case

Notices
Foo Off-Topic chit chat with no general subject.

Oracle lost its copyright case

Old 04-05-21, 11:20 AM
  #1  
tyrion
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,380

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times in 549 Posts
Oracle lost its copyright case

Thank God Oracle lost its case:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...fair-use.shtml
tyrion is online now  
Likes For tyrion:
Old 04-05-21, 05:07 PM
  #2  
Joe Bikerider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 557

Bikes: 1969 Peugeot PX10, 1992 Della Santa, Biria Easy Boarding 8, Linus Roadster 8

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 182 Times in 103 Posts
Yea!
Joe Bikerider is offline  
Old 04-05-21, 05:39 PM
  #3  
ahsposo 
Rock Hard Member
 
ahsposo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Outside the Box
Posts: 7,134

Bikes: A Home Built All Rounder, Bianchi 928, Specialized Langster, Dahon Folder

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5263 Post(s)
Liked 2,399 Times in 1,443 Posts
Of course, this is like Cthulhu losing to Satan.
ahsposo is offline  
Likes For ahsposo:
Old 04-05-21, 06:30 PM
  #4  
tyrion
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,380

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times in 549 Posts
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Of course, this is like Cthulhu losing to Satan.
This goes way beyond Google and Oracle. If Oracle would have won it would have really screwed up the software world.
tyrion is online now  
Likes For tyrion:
Old 04-06-21, 08:27 AM
  #5  
Juan Foote
LBKA (formerly punkncat)
 
Juan Foote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jawja
Posts: 3,757

Bikes: Spec Roubaix SL4, GT Traffic 1.0

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1287 Post(s)
Liked 238 Times in 168 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
This goes way beyond Google and Oracle. If Oracle would have won it would have really screwed up the software world.
I would not go so far as to say "screw up", but it damned sure would have made Oracle the Gatekeeper, big and rich as hell after everyone had to pay them royalties/licensing.
Juan Foote is offline  
Likes For Juan Foote:
Old 04-06-21, 11:21 AM
  #6  
blacknbluebikes 
Senior Member
 
blacknbluebikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 665

Bikes: two blacks, a blue and a white.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 129 Posts
Poor Larry. Not.
blacknbluebikes is offline  
Old 04-06-21, 02:24 PM
  #7  
J.Higgins 
Mentally Derailleured
 
J.Higgins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,324

Bikes: Bilenky Tourlite, Surly Ogre

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1180 Post(s)
Liked 460 Times in 314 Posts
I skimmed through that article long enough to realize how far it is beyond my capacity to understand. I envy you guys who live and breathe this stuff, which probably comes as easy to you as me tying my own laces. I'm glad to have people like you around to keep us straight!
J.Higgins is offline  
Old 04-06-21, 10:39 PM
  #8  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,827
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14226 Post(s)
Liked 5,273 Times in 3,002 Posts
Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
I would not go so far as to say "screw up", but it damned sure would have made Oracle the Gatekeeper, big and rich as hell after everyone had to pay them royalties/licensing.
It really would have been bad in a lot of ways for most tires of computers including phones. We would lose a lot of flexibility and the ability of many things to work together. The rest would be more expensive. A lot of ISVs would be sued out of existence sooner or later.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 04-06-21, 10:50 PM
  #9  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,827
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14226 Post(s)
Liked 5,273 Times in 3,002 Posts
Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
I skimmed through that article long enough to realize how far it is beyond my capacity to understand. I envy you guys who live and breathe this stuff, which probably comes as easy to you as me tying my own laces. I'm glad to have people like you around to keep us straight!
For what it's worth, the article made it clear as mud what the tech stuff meant. It was quoting the courts a lot and having what an API is explained by people who don't understand what it is just isn't going to be understandable.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 04-07-21, 01:44 AM
  #10  
J.Higgins 
Mentally Derailleured
 
J.Higgins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,324

Bikes: Bilenky Tourlite, Surly Ogre

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1180 Post(s)
Liked 460 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
For what it's worth, the article made it clear as mud what the tech stuff meant. It was quoting the courts a lot and having what an API is explained by people who don't understand what it is just isn't going to be understandable.
Hah! For what its worth, I still don't know. Clear as mud. I like that expression. It fits!
J.Higgins is offline  
Old 04-07-21, 07:02 AM
  #11  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,701
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 743 Post(s)
Liked 283 Times in 174 Posts
Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
I skimmed through that article long enough to realize how far it is beyond my capacity to understand. I envy you guys who live and breathe this stuff, which probably comes as easy to you as me tying my own laces. I'm glad to have people like you around to keep us straight!
Good to know I'm not alone. Heck, we may be the majority.
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Likes For Dan Burkhart:
Old 04-07-21, 12:59 PM
  #12  
J.Higgins 
Mentally Derailleured
 
J.Higgins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,324

Bikes: Bilenky Tourlite, Surly Ogre

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1180 Post(s)
Liked 460 Times in 314 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Good to know I'm not alone. Heck, we may be the majority.
I'm thinking that I may have become my father. What is funny, is that I'm no stranger to the world of computers. I've had some form of home computer since about 1984. My brother and I would swap programs and floppy discs, and have conversations about computers and electronic games, and my dad would sit there smoking his Luckys and taking it all in. He'd irritate me with his stupid questions, and even though I was an adult, I didnt have the ability to understand just how foreign all this was to him. He didnt have a clue then, and I don't have a clue now.
J.Higgins is offline  
Likes For J.Higgins:
Old 04-07-21, 01:13 PM
  #13  
zandoval 
Senior Member
 
zandoval's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 2,025

Bikes: Univega, PR-10, Ted Williams,UO-8, Puch, PHLE, UO-18 Mixte

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by ahsposo View Post
Of course, this is like Cthulhu losing to Satan.
Ha Ha... You got it... JAVA is just another buggered language. Microsoft, Google, Oricle... and the list goes on including Anderoid.

Been using Debian Linux for decades and have seen the JAVA fight go on and on... Even to the Supreme Court!
__________________
No matter where your at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
zandoval is online now  
Old 04-07-21, 04:26 PM
  #14  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,827
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14226 Post(s)
Liked 5,273 Times in 3,002 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Good to know I'm not alone. Heck, we may be the majority.
API = application programming interface. It's the last word that's important.

An API is the way programs allow programmers to ask the programs to do something.

If you want to display a picture on the screen, there's a lot that has to happen, and you don't have to write most of it yourself. The computer needs to get the image data from a file, from the internet, or wherever, decode the way it's stored into something that can be displayed, and show it.

An API is the way you ask the operating system to do that. The API doesn't say how to do it. How to do it is what programmers are paid to write code for. How to do it is subject to copyright. How to ask for it to be done is what's at issue here. It's a little bit like how your house is your private property and your address isn't. Your address is basically how to get to the important part.

One API might require you to carry out a task in 3 steps, and another might let you do everything with one command. If you want to display a picture, maybe you have to load the image into memory first because the API for drawing on the screen requires an image; a different API will accept a file name or url instead of the 1s and 0s that make up the image. It's just two ways of asking other software to do the same thing.

Being able to copy an API (but still having to do the work of telling the computer how to carry those tasks out) means programmers can write their programs once and they can be used in more than one context, ie their programs can work with more than just one other program. Not being able to do that means those programmers have to write code specific to each context. Which means either their software is more expensive and less innovative, it's of lower quality, or it just doesn't support as much and is less useful.

I don't know if that's any more clear or not, I hope it helps a little.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 04-07-21, 04:40 PM
  #15  
rwh 
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 3 Posts
I was disappointed they didn't rule that APIs aren't covered by copyright. Calling it fair use leaves it open for another round next time someone decides to use another companies API.
rwh is offline  
Likes For rwh:
Old 04-09-21, 01:29 PM
  #16  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,442

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 1,164 Times in 878 Posts
I need to read that article, I want to understand it more thoroughly, BUT, without having read it yet, the keyword is INTERFACE (the I in API).

Here's another analogy: In a car engine, the water pump or alternator, has a certain interface to the rest of the engine; bolt holes this size in these places, a mating surface this shape, hosepipes or loopbelts of such and such length that have to be at this position relative to the bolts/mating surfaces, etc.

If a non-OEM company wants to manufacture replacement water pumps or alternators for a certain engine, they are free to do so. The interface is not protected. The inner workings of the Ford or Honda or whatever specific water pump or alternator might well have patentable technology, but not the interface. And the non-OEM implementation of the device may look different in its outer shape, color, or (separately patentable!) inner workings -- all irrelevant details to whether the device conforms to the matching Interface.

Another example; you can nowadays replace fluorescent light tubes with LED tubes. They work in existing fixtures because the conform to the T4 interface; a 4-foot tube with two prongs of a certain shape/size/position on either end, which respond to a certain volate/amperage of alternating electric current. But the inside is a completely different implementation. So if somebody had a patent on fluorescent lights, or even standard T4 tubes, would these LED replacement makers be in violation of that patent just for reusing the interface? I don't think anybody would reasonably think so.

So when Oracle complains that Google 'stole' the Java API, what does that mean, that Google wrote their own implementation of Java, which can also compile and run the same Java source code that Oracle/Sun Java can? Or is this about how other languages (C++? Python? Javascript? Go?) might access Java-implemented capabilities through an inter-language interface?

Last edited by RubeRad; 04-09-21 at 01:33 PM.
RubeRad is offline  
Likes For RubeRad:
Old 04-09-21, 01:35 PM
  #17  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,442

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 1,164 Times in 878 Posts
Is this case more or less important than when Unisys lost (?) their claim to IP rights to gif?

Or that case a few years back where a patent troll was claiming IP rights to "podcasting", and threatening pricey lawsuits against all kinds of big podcasters?
RubeRad is offline  
Old 04-09-21, 02:26 PM
  #18  
tyrion
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,380

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times in 549 Posts
Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
Hah! For what its worth, I still don't know. Clear as mud. I like that expression. It fits!
Here's an analogy: I buy the company that made the first modern American standard electrical plug. Then I say "anyone that makes these kinds of plugs now has to pay me a fee", even though hundreds of companies have been making that kind of plug for decades. That's what Oracle tried to do - just a corrupt money grab.
tyrion is online now  
Old 04-09-21, 02:32 PM
  #19  
tyrion
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,380

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times in 549 Posts
Originally Posted by rwh View Post
I was disappointed they didn't rule that APIs aren't covered by copyright. Calling it fair use leaves it open for another round next time someone decides to use another companies API.
Software developers have been using other people's API's for decades. It's a long standing industry practice that Oracle tried overthrow.

Oracle's whole existence is based on SQL, which was invented at IBM, so it's insanely hypocritical for Oracle to be pulling this stuff now.

Last edited by tyrion; 04-16-21 at 01:19 PM.
tyrion is online now  
Old 04-09-21, 02:36 PM
  #20  
tyrion
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,380

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times in 549 Posts
Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
Ha Ha... You got it... JAVA is just another buggered language. Microsoft, Google, Oricle... and the list goes on including Anderoid.

Been using Debian Linux for decades and have seen the JAVA fight go on and on... Even to the Supreme Court!
Debian Linux wouldn't exist if APIs were copyrightable.
tyrion is online now  
Likes For tyrion:
Old 04-09-21, 03:25 PM
  #21  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,442

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 1,164 Times in 878 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Software developers have been using other people's API's for decades. It's a long standard industry practice that Oracle tried overthrow
That's kind of the point of an API, you expose the API to the world in the hopes of attracting integrators that will create capabilities that use the API, which means that stuff you wrote 'behind' the API gets more use (and depending on your business model, you get more $$)
RubeRad is offline  
Likes For RubeRad:
Old 04-09-21, 05:40 PM
  #22  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,442

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 1,164 Times in 878 Posts
OK I skimmed the article, not completely thoroughly, but found some good stuff. From Breyer's majority opinion:

The second, less obvious, function is to reflect the way in which Java’s creators have divided the potential world of different tasks into an actual world, i.e., precisely which set of potentially millions of different tasks we want to have our Java-based computer systems perform and how we want those tasks arranged and grouped. In this sense, the declaring code performs an organizational function. It determines the structure of the task library that Java’s creators have decided to build.


This is a great point, and actually one in Oracle's column. Once a great interface is designed, the implementation written to fulfill the guts behind that interface has a much better chance of being great. If the interface sucks, the whole enterprise is doomed. So a quality, usable, robust, well-architected API is a thing of craft and value, even though it's not the implementation itself. Much as a Frank Lloyd Wright blueprint is a purer representation of his creative genius (intellectual property?) than the resulting constructed house itself.

Here, the 'declaring code' is the API, vs the ''innovative implementing code" is what happens inside/behind the API when users invoke API functions

The declaring code (inseparable from the programmer’s method calls) embodies a different kind of creativity. Sun Java’s creators, for example, tried to find declaring code names that would prove intuitively easy to remember. Id., at 211. They wanted to attract programmers who would learn the system, help to develop it further, and prove reluctant to use another. See post, at 10 (“Declaring code . . . is user facing. It must be designed and organized in a way that is intuitive and understandable to developers so that they can invoke it”). Sun’s business strategy originally emphasized the importance of using the API to attract programmers. It sought to make the API “open” and “then . . . compete on implementations.” App. 124–125. The testimony at trial was replete with examples of witnesses drawing this critical line between the user-centered declaratory code and the innovative implementing code....

These features mean that, as part of a user interface, the declaring code differs to some degree from the mine run of computer programs. Like other computer programs, it is functional in nature. But unlike many other programs, its use is inherently bound together with uncopyrightable ideas (general task division and organization) and new creative expression (Android’s implementing code). Unlike many other programs, its value in significant part derives from the value that those who do not hold copyrights, namely, computer programmers, invest of their own time and effort to learn the API’s system. And unlike many other programs, its value lies in its efforts to encourage programmers to learn and to use that system so that they will use (and continue to use) Sun-related implementing programs that Google did not copy.
More about 'attracting programmers':

Google copied those lines not because of their creativity, their beauty, or even (in a sense) because of their purpose. It copied them because programmers had already learned to work with the Sun Java API’s system, and it would have been difficult, perhaps prohibitively so, to attract programmers to build its Android smartphone system without them.
Not sure that's the strongest point there, it basically reduces to 'Google stole it because it was too hard to make something new itself'.

Interesting though that Breyer seems to have understood the heart of the issue so well. "Not a bad description for an 82-year-old Supreme Court Justice (kudos to his clerks and the various parties and amici that briefed this)"
RubeRad is offline  
Old 04-16-21, 01:06 PM
  #23  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,442

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 1,164 Times in 878 Posts
https://barrgroup.com/software-exper...pute-nears-end
Oracle alleged that Google had violated both patents and copyrights relating to parts of the Java programming language (which was created at Sun Microsystems prior to its acquisition by Oracle). At the heart of the matter were 11,500 lines of source code, 37 package APIs, and 170 lines of API declarations that Google admits were copied to create its Android operating system. On the copyright issue, Google asserted a defense of fair use of the API.

I did a little googling (actually ducking-ducking-going) and couldn't quickly turn up a reference showing exactly those 170 lines in question.

Anyone else know how to put their finger on them? Or the 11500 lines Oracle alleged?
RubeRad is offline  
Old 04-16-21, 02:25 PM
  #24  
tyrion
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,380

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times in 549 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
https://barrgroup.com/software-exper...pute-nears-end

I did a little googling (actually ducking-ducking-going) and couldn't quickly turn up a reference showing exactly those 170 lines in question.

Anyone else know how to put their finger on them? Or the 11500 lines Oracle alleged?
I believe the "11,500 lines" was a standard set of Java interface declarations (that one would routinely submit to the compiler when compiling a Java module), but upon analysis Google was only using a small portion of that in Android, "170 lines" of it. I've never seen those 170 lines identified.
tyrion is online now  
Old 04-16-21, 03:17 PM
  #25  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,442

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 1,164 Times in 878 Posts
I'd love to see those 170 (presumably they were entered as Exhibit X at some point?) It would help me understand it, and perhaps explain to kids what's the root of what's going on.
RubeRad is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.