Go Back  Bike Forums > The Lounge > Foo
Reload this Page >

Is Science Debatable?

Notices
Foo Light hearted off-topic chit chat with no general subject.

Is Science Debatable?

Old 03-08-22, 11:04 AM
  #76  
work4bike
Senior Member
 
work4bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,634
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2706 Post(s)
Liked 581 Times in 436 Posts
BTW, I never intended to bash Hoyle, the guy was a genius, but we all have our faults.
work4bike is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 11:09 AM
  #77  
Hondo Gravel
Life Feeds On Life
 
Hondo Gravel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hondo,Texas
Posts: 2,117

Bikes: Too many Motobecanes

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 3,296 Times in 2,139 Posts
I’m looking into a vacation home on Pluto.
Hondo Gravel is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 11:34 AM
  #78  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
^tell you what. I like you, man. I will trade you a few shares I have on Pluto for that little plot in South Texas. Just say the word. I was saving it for a rainy day, but I've sorta given up on them. It has yet to rain on Pluto....
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 11:39 AM
  #79  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
I have a great idea. Why don't we mine some of the ice on Pluto to cool down earth. Now, how would we wrangle that outlying planet in and get it to cooperate without throwing off all of the other planets? hmmmmm?
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 11:45 AM
  #80  
Hondo Gravel
Life Feeds On Life
 
Hondo Gravel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hondo,Texas
Posts: 2,117

Bikes: Too many Motobecanes

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 3,296 Times in 2,139 Posts
I will think about it.
Hondo Gravel is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 11:54 AM
  #81  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
I will think about it.

I bet if you take enough of those chimney's you could make it rain cats and dogs. Unfortunately, Loredo, TX. is just too far for me to travel given the current petrol prices. Just say the word, man. I will have my people draw something up lickity split. lol!
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 02:05 PM
  #82  
dgodave
Behold my avatar:
 
dgodave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW Colorado
Posts: 1,014

Bikes: 2019 Gorilla Monsoon, 2013 Surly Krampus, Brompton folder

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6642 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 112 Posts
Going through the thread, I would say science IS debatable.

But what isnt?
dgodave is offline  
Likes For dgodave:
Old 03-08-22, 02:41 PM
  #83  
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,456

Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 538 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times in 160 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
If science is all about establishing a set of facts, what exactly is there to debate? The Method?

I think one can debate theories, but you can't debate the facts.

For example, there is a debate among scientists on whether there is life elsewhere. There is absolutely no proof of this anywhere. But, yet, it's still a hot topic of debate. And, what does it really matter if there is other life out there anyway? Don't we have enough to concern ourselves with already? lol!
Define fact.
__________________

Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 02:48 PM
  #84  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
Define fact.
A fact is an observable phenomenon that repeats itself over time. Just how much time, I'm not exactly sure.
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 02:50 PM
  #85  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Originally Posted by dgodave View Post
Going through the thread, I would say science IS debatable.

But what isnt?
If science is a function of time, then we probably need a graph.
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 02:55 PM
  #86  
dgodave
Behold my avatar:
 
dgodave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW Colorado
Posts: 1,014

Bikes: 2019 Gorilla Monsoon, 2013 Surly Krampus, Brompton folder

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6642 Post(s)
Liked 174 Times in 112 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
If science is a function of time, then we probably need a graph.
A polygraph.
dgodave is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 02:55 PM
  #87  
Clyde1820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,690

Bikes: 1996 Trek 970 ZX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 542 Post(s)
Liked 421 Times in 326 Posts
Is Science Debatable?
Sure. Until it's actually settled as fact. Until then, utterly debatable as to method, validity of the data, validity of the testing, repeatability, and all the rest.

One thing I like is that so very many such things are called "theories." The theory of so-called black holes. The theory of relativity. That's appropriate. They're not hardly settled facts, yet, and hence should be termed theories.

Of course, even with the supposed "laws" of physics (or thermodynamics), one has to wonder whether under strange or "extreme" circumstances (ie, near a black hole) whether certain "laws" we've come up with actually aren't so iron-clad law-like as we suspect. It's nice that all of our proof results, so far, all show the initial theory to be seemingly infallible, hence calling such things "laws." But, you've got to wonder whether all the imagined situations actually have left out one or two that we just haven't realized exist.

The whole "anti-matter" and "dark matter" areas of particle physics is interesting, as well. It's a lot of guesswork and imagined realities, backed up by a lot of evidence those things might actually exist. Seemingly, only a relatively small percentage of this universe's matter can be explained; the rest isn't understood ... yet it seemingly has effects that can be shown to exist. Theories, all. Yet backed up, here and there, with quite a lot of evidence and in some cases repeatable results that show this or that particle exists or behaves a certain way.

Interesting stuff. But like most things, the journey's the important thing. The process. Get that part right, and a lot eventually begins to fall into place. Fail that, such as when commercialized monetizing of inventions gets the better of the science, we all lose.
Clyde1820 is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 04:15 PM
  #88  
tyrion
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,749

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2010 Post(s)
Liked 1,540 Times in 745 Posts
Science doesn't really produce facts - at least not directly. Science enables technology that enables observations (speed of light, etc.) and we consider them facts, but that fact production is downstream of science.

Science doesn't prove things, it only disproves things.
tyrion is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 06:29 PM
  #89  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 791 Times in 477 Posts
Originally Posted by clemsongirl View Post
Perhaps studying the history and changes to the tree of life is also a little too hard for junior high school students

My father knew Woese when both were working in molecular biology at the Pasteur Institute in the 60’s. He also worked on early and still today mRNA issues . He gave me Woese’s ‘The Genetic Code’ to read when I was still in my lycée and that peaked my interest in his work and lead to further studies in my undergraduate work.
That's fantastic! I never had the chance to meet the guy.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 03-08-22, 08:56 PM
  #90  
Hondo Gravel
Life Feeds On Life
 
Hondo Gravel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hondo,Texas
Posts: 2,117

Bikes: Too many Motobecanes

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3065 Post(s)
Liked 3,296 Times in 2,139 Posts
Hondo Gravel is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 09:47 AM
  #91  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Science doesn't really produce facts - at least not directly. Science enables technology that enables observations (speed of light, etc.) and we consider them facts, but that fact production is downstream of science.

Science doesn't prove things, it only disproves things.
So, science is a function of technology? I put my TIME up against your technology any day! lol

Technology proves things, then?

We should say follow the tech, not the "follow the science." Because the science is never determined, it's just a consensus of related "facts" that we acquire through technology, and only technology can advance more technology. Science is essentially a term we've given to the stuff we don't really understand.
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 09:52 AM
  #92  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,660
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 1,305 Times in 817 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
So, science is a function of technology? I put my TIME up against your technology any day! lol

Technology proves things, then?

We should say follow the tech, not the "follow the science." Because the science is never determined, it's just a consensus of related "facts" that we acquire through technology, and only technology can advance more technology. Science is essentially a term we've given to the stuff we don't really understand.
Theorists vs experimentalists. Experiments take gear and kit. Tech.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 10:33 AM
  #93  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Theorists vs experimentalists. Experiments take gear and kit. Tech.
I don't really understand why anyone would bother being one OR the other.

The only thing science is really good for is uncovering more questions. It creates more questions than answers, so no wonder all those braniacs are so darn anti-social. They never know whether they'z comin' or goin'. lol!

I watched JRE do an interview with Mr. Beast, the youtuber. Here is a perfect example of someone who has internalized morals and ethics and all these great values, but has no real experience with the kind of suffering it takes to fully understand how rare that is in the real world. This a 23 year old kid who will be a kid forever. I'm only using this kid as an example, but this kind of "learned" behavior is commonplace among many people with similar mindset. He literally tore down every statistic, and sorta found a winning formula on how to get rich off of youtube. I bet he gets a kick watching a lot of his older videos. That's just hunch, though.

Last edited by Bandrada; 03-09-22 at 10:45 AM.
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 10:43 AM
  #94  
tyrion
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 3,749

Bikes: Breezer Radar

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2010 Post(s)
Liked 1,540 Times in 745 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
So, science is a function of technology? I put my TIME up against your technology any day! lol

Technology proves things, then?

We should say follow the tech, not the "follow the science." Because the science is never determined, it's just a consensus of related "facts" that we acquire through technology, and only technology can advance more technology. Science is essentially a term we've given to the stuff we don't really understand.
Technology enables observations. I wouldn't call that proof.

I said science doesn't prove things because there's some confusion around the term "prove" - mathematical theories can be proven, while scientific theories are never proven. Scientific theories can only be falsified (disproven). Take a theory like General Relativity, which as been tested hundreds of times, remains unfalsified, and is relied upon in our daily lives (e.g. GPS), and is currently considered a safe bet to rely on by when developing technology - General Relativity hasn't been proven and never will be.

Science is a process for constructing explanations. General Relativity is an explanation for some of the things we observe (e.g. gravity), but it's possible GR could be disproven someday and a better, superseding explanation constructed.
tyrion is offline  
Likes For tyrion:
Old 03-09-22, 11:16 AM
  #95  
Dudelsack 
A might bewildered...
 
Dudelsack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Loovul in summer. Jensen Beach in Winter.
Posts: 6,623

Bikes: Bacchetta Giro ATT 26; Lemond Buenos Aires; Trek/Electra Townie Mega E bike.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 69 Times in 32 Posts
I don't demand that a theory correspond to reality because I don't know what it is. Reality is not a quality you can test with litmus paper. All I'm concerned with is that the theory should predict the results of measurements.” - Steven Hawking.

What is science? Understanding how Reality works.

What is Reality? Get back with me in a bit.
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit.



Dudelsack is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 11:27 AM
  #96  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Stephen Hawking probably understood reality more than most, I think. I have neighbor that is wheelchair bound and cannot do anything for herself. She helps me to understand reality and I walk her dog.
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 11:29 AM
  #97  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,660
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 1,305 Times in 817 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
I don't really understand why anyone would bother being one OR the other.

The only thing science is really good for is uncovering more questions. It creates more questions than answers, so no wonder all those braniacs are so darn anti-social. They never know whether they'z comin' or goin'. lol!

I watched JRE do an interview with Mr. Beast, the youtuber. Here is a perfect example of someone who has internalized morals and ethics and all these great values, but has no real experience with the kind of suffering it takes to fully understand how rare that is in the real world. This a 23 year old kid who will be a kid forever. I'm only using this kid as an example, but this kind of "learned" behavior is commonplace among many people with similar mindset. He literally tore down every statistic, and sorta found a winning formula on how to get rich off of youtube. I bet he gets a kick watching a lot of his older videos. That's just hunch, though.
You do not understand science. Why would you expect to understand the skills or interests....? Some like the bench/lab. Others do not.

I took a quick look at Mr Beast. Can I please have my 30 seconds refunded.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 11:34 AM
  #98  
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,456

Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 538 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times in 160 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
A fact is an observable phenomenon that repeats itself over time. Just how much time, I'm not exactly sure.
Consider "observable".

Science is debatable, but only within the parameters established by the scientific method. Scientists rarely talk about "facts" because there is error in every observation and every measurement.They do talk about "generally accepted" or "shown", but that is something different from what laymen mean when they say "it is a fact that gravity exists", for instance.

In the context of, let's say, ongoing research into the transmission, treatment, and control of viruses within a population, it is important to distinguish between debate using the scientific method (I replicated your study and got a different result, or I found a flaw in your research design or data analysis), and popular debate (I have no medical background, have never set foot i a lab, but I saw a youtube video that disagreed with the latest story on network news).

What is generally accepted absolutely changes over time. To put it in a cycling context, consider what we've learned about frame stiffness and tire pressure. In another 10 years, with more studies, we'll likely draw different conclusions than we draw today. But that doesn't mean we were wrong 20 years ago. It does mean we weren't looking at every variable, and/or our testing methods were flawed. In some cases we were relying on assumptions that turned out not to be true.

Have appropriate expectations, and science will never let you down.
__________________

Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline  
Likes For bbbean:
Old 03-09-22, 11:34 AM
  #99  
Bandrada
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Land of Enhancement
Posts: 426

Bikes: ...

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6591 Post(s)
Liked 383 Times in 334 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
You do not understand science. Why would you expect to understand the skills or interests....? Some like the bench/lab. Others do not.

I took a quick look at Mr Beast. Can I please have my 30 seconds refunded.
I understand the methodology, but you are correct. I don't understand science as a whole.
Bandrada is offline  
Old 03-09-22, 11:36 AM
  #100  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,660
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1569 Post(s)
Liked 1,305 Times in 817 Posts
Originally Posted by Bandrada View Post
I understand the methodology, but you are correct. I don't understand science as a whole.
Nobody does, that is why there is peer review.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Likes For GhostRider62:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.