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Old 05-13-22, 11:28 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
I have to disagree on this one. While 30 HP may be sufficient to maintain the speed limit on a highway, it does not provide the necessary acceleration to safely merge with freeway traffic from an onramp, or to safely pass traffic on a two-lane highway. My Ford C-Max hybrid has a combined 188 HP, and I find it to be adequate in this regard. And, yes, there have been times when I've needed to floor it to make a safe merge or pass.
Apparently you have never driven an old Volkswagon.

And the problem you are dealing with is not so much that your car is underpowered, but that everyone else is driving a very overpowered vehicle. Seriously. We really don't need 400 HP to simply move people about.
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Old 05-13-22, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Apparently you have never driven an old Volkswagon.

And the problem you are dealing with is not so much that your car is underpowered, but that everyone else is driving a very overpowered vehicle. Seriously. We really don't need 400 HP to simply move people about.
Untrue. I drove my mom's 1960 VW beetle, which had a paltry 36 HP. I think maximum speed was 90 KPH (56 MPH). Anyway, the issue is not the fact that other cars are overpowered, buy that if they are going 65 MPH on a freeway and I have a very short onramp to accelerate to that speed in order to merge and not get run over, then 30 HP just doesn't cut it. Also, forget about passing on a two lane road when you get stuck behind a slow moving truck. Now, I will agree that 400 HP is overkill, but the vast majority of cars on the road don't have that kind of power.
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Old 05-13-22, 12:06 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
Untrue. I drove my mom's 1960 VW beetle, which had a paltry 36 HP. I think maximum speed was 90 KPH (56 MPH). Anyway, the issue is not the fact that other cars are overpowered, buy that if they are going 65 MPH on a freeway and I have a very short onramp to accelerate to that speed in order to merge and not get run over, then 30 HP just doesn't cut it. Also, forget about passing on a two lane road when you get stuck behind a slow moving truck. Now, I will agree that 400 HP is overkill, but the vast majority of cars on the road don't have that kind of power.
So, I'm talking to a cyclist right... someone that has less than 0.75HP, and has to merge with cars from time to time on surface streets... when those cars are moving at 2X or greater speed... Just how DO you manage...
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Old 05-13-22, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
So, I'm talking to a cyclist right... someone that has less than 0.75HP, and has to merge with cars from time to time on surface streets... when those cars are moving at 2X or greater speed... Just how DO you manage...
And how exactly does this relate to merging with traffic at 65 MPH ?
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Old 05-13-22, 12:21 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
So, I'm talking to a cyclist right... someone that has less than 0.75HP,
How did you determine this fact?
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Old 05-13-22, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
How did you determine this fact?
Fact? As in most cyclists can't achieve a full single horsepower of about 745 watts... Oh, just a guess... Or wouldn't we then call it a "personpower?"

I seem to recall that an elite racing cyclist can dial it up to about 400 watts... and may burst speed double that for a few seconds. So my guess of about 3/4 of an HP is pretty safe.
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Old 05-13-22, 12:36 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
And how exactly does this relate to merging with traffic at 65 MPH ?
It's a metaphor for something you do "low powered" probably quite often.
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Old 05-13-22, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
It's a metaphor for something you do "low powered" probably quite often.
Well, metaphorically speaking, I don't always have the luxury of merging with traffic w/o a lot more than 30 HP, any more than I challenge cars for a spot on the road when I'm riding my bicycle. Maybe you drive or ride that way, or maybe there aren't any freeways with 65 MPH speed limits and short onramps where you live, but I prefer not to challenge the gods of physics when I'm driving.
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Old 05-13-22, 12:51 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
Well, metaphorically speaking, I don't always have the luxury of merging with traffic w/o a lot more than 30 HP, any more than I challenge cars for a spot on the road when I'm riding my bicycle. Maybe you drive or ride that way, or maybe there aren't any freeways with 65 MPH speed limits and short onramps where you live, but I prefer not to challenge the gods of physics when I'm driving.
So, to wrap up this metaphor... do you then also claim that we all NEED 5G, just so we have the most bandwidth available... I mean, so you don't have to "challenge the gods of physics" when you are streaming some music...
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Old 05-13-22, 01:00 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Fact? As in most cyclists can't achieve a full single horsepower of about 745 watts... Oh, just a guess... Or wouldn't we then call it a "personpower?"

I seem to recall that an elite racing cyclist can dial it up to about 400 watts... and may burst speed double that for a few seconds. So my guess of about 3/4 of an HP is pretty safe.
This is my data and I'm far from an elite cyclist. I use a Vector 2 to measure this, it can be off by up to 2%.

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Old 05-13-22, 01:03 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
So, to wrap up this metaphor... do you then also claim that we all NEED 5G, just so we have the most bandwidth available... I mean, so you don't have to "challenge the gods of physics" when you are streaming some music...
I think you're making a very flawed analogy here. The convenience of fast downloads is not the same as the necessity of safety when driving. So, we all don't need 5G, but we sure as hell need to be safe when driving on modern very fast roadways. And driving a severely underpowered car on highways and freeways is a danger to both you and other motorists.
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Originally Posted by Dcv View Post
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Old 05-13-22, 01:25 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
This is my data and I'm far from an elite cyclist. I use a Vector 2 to measure this, it can be off by up to 2%.


Nice burst rates... but I see that your sustained rate of power lingers down around 400 watts... thanks for playing. That 20 or 30 second burst might have allowed you to just merge with that ole '65 VW on a surface street.
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Old 05-13-22, 01:27 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
I think you're making a very flawed analogy here. The convenience of fast downloads is not the same as the necessity of safety when driving. So, we all don't need 5G, but we sure as hell need to be safe when driving on modern very fast roadways. And driving a severely underpowered car on highways and freeways is a danger to both you and other motorists.
Hardly. And that my friend is the same silly argument that motorists make about cyclists sharing the road.

So to continue down that slippery slope... you should probably stick to bike paths and avoid any road with cars.
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Old 05-13-22, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Nice burst rates... but I see that your sustained rate of power lingers down around 400 watts... thanks for playing. That 20 or 30 second burst might have allowed you to just merge with that ole '65 VW on a surface street.
​​​​​​
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Fact? As in most cyclists can't achieve a full single horsepower of about 745 watts...
​​​​​​I was going to ask next what you meant by "have" except you answered already and said most cyclists can't achieve 745 watts. I can't say whether that's true for most of not but I'm doubtful.

​​​​​​​Anyway, I was wondering where you got these facts you were throwing around. 🙂
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Old 05-13-22, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Hardly. And that my friend is the same silly argument that motorists make about cyclists sharing the road.

So to continue down that slippery slope... you should probably stick to bike paths and avoid any road with cars.
Again, not the same situation. If you merge with a vehicle it means you are forcing them drive behind you rather along side you in the same lane. This is what you do in a car when you merge onto a freeway. When you share the road on your bicycle with cars, you ride along side them, unless the speeds are so low that you can safely ride in front of them without forcing them to slow down. Well, anyway that's how I ride, and in fifty years I've never been in an accident with a car while riding my bike.
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Originally Posted by Dcv View Post
I'd like to think i have as much money as brains.
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Old 05-13-22, 01:53 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​
​​​​​​I was going to ask next what you meant by "have" except you answered already and said most cyclists can't achieve 745 watts. I can't say whether that's true for most of not but I'm doubtful.

Anyway, I was wondering where you got these facts you were throwing around. 🙂
We are not horses... we humans have a difficult time sustaining "horse like" power. And as far as the "facts" of about 400 watts... from claims I have seen here on BF of some cyclists and their power meters.

​​​​​​​But hey, let's slip on down to Wiki for a quick look at what others have written...
During a bicycle race, an elite cyclist can produce close to 400 watts of mechanical power over an hour and in short bursts over double that—1000 to 1100 watts; modern racing bicycles have greater than 95% mechanical efficiency. An adult of good fitness is more likely to average between 50 and 150 watts for an hour of vigorous exercise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_power
Which in this case references this: Eugene A. Avallone et al., (ed), Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers 11th Edition , Mc-Graw Hill, New York 2007 ISBN 0-07-142867-4 page 9-4


BTW this sentence confuses me... and I suspect it might also confuse your grammar teacher: "I can't say whether that's true for most of not but I'm doubtful."
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Old 05-13-22, 02:13 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
Untrue. I drove my mom's 1960 VW beetle, which had a paltry 36 HP. I think maximum speed was 90 KPH (56 MPH). Anyway, the issue is not the fact that other cars are overpowered, buy that if they are going 65 MPH on a freeway and I have a very short onramp to accelerate to that speed in order to merge and not get run over, then 30 HP just doesn't cut it. Also, forget about passing on a two lane road when you get stuck behind a slow moving truck. Now, I will agree that 400 HP is overkill, but the vast majority of cars on the road don't have that kind of power.
Originally Posted by TejanoTrackie View Post
I think you're making a very flawed analogy here. The convenience of fast downloads is not the same as the necessity of safety when driving. So, we all don't need 5G, but we sure as hell need to be safe when driving on modern very fast roadways. And driving a severely underpowered car on highways and freeways is a danger to both you and other motorists.
My VW experiences FWIW.

In 1963 I drove my father's '57 or possibly '59 VW bus from Philadelphia to Chicago and returned a few days later. It had a manufacturer's sticker in the windshield that said to not exceed 50 mph, and my father howled if I let it creep one mph faster. 50 mph on the PA-Ohio-Indiana turnpikes amongst gaggles of semi's doing at least 70; what an ordeal.

The first car I bought was a new '64VW bug, 40 HP. Drove it until I graduated college in "68 and sold it to my roommate with 50,000 miles and no significant repairs when I got drafted after graduation. It could do 70 MPH on level ground with 3 passengers. It was scary driving and especially passing on a 3 lane road going back and forth between parent's home and college campus. 1 lane each direction, the middle lane a "suicide" lane for passing in both directions (US 322 west of Harrisburg.) Car had a lot of thrills and no heat worth mentioning.

Every car I have owned in the U.S.since then has been a relatively low powered car (none over 150HP), including a 1969 Datsun B10 wagon. None were a problem for acceleration safety like the badly underpowered VW.

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Old 05-13-22, 02:14 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
We are not horses... we humans have a difficult time sustaining "horse like" power. And as far as the "facts" of about 400 watts... from claims I have seen here on BF of some cyclists and their power meters.

But hey, let's slip on down to Wiki for a quick look at what others have written...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_power
Which in this case references this: Eugene A. Avallone et al., (ed), Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers 11th Edition , Mc-Graw Hill, New York 2007 ISBN 0-07-142867-4 page 9-4


BTW this sentence confuses me... and I suspect it might also confuse your grammar teacher: "I can't say whether that's true for most of not but I'm doubtful."
​​​​​​​So you did your own research on the internet. Got it.
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Old 05-13-22, 03:13 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I also don't know anybody who regularly calls people dimwits and writes about hatred for people who use a thing, either. Like you said, it gets old.
Rather than discuss a matter, reasonably and logically, some just have a need to write negative things because they need the attention that appeals to their prejudices, rather than intellect…..but then the ignore function here helps a lot!!!!
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Old 05-13-22, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
So you did your own research on the internet. Got it.
No, actually... I did my own research after you questioned me. I recalled the 400 watt number from previous quotes on BF. And I knew the 1HP wattage value from College.

But if you'd like... I can research it for you and present the information from known reliable sources... such as "Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers 11th Edition"

Let me know if any of these sources satisfies your curiosity:
Power is the best indicator of how well a cyclist will perform in terms of maximising their speed. An elite cyclist can produce about 5 watts (5W) of power for every kilogram of bodyweight for a 1-hour event. For example, a 70 kg cyclist who is able to maintain a power output of 350W for 1 hour would be considered to be in the elite category.

A very powerful cyclist might be able to produce 1200W or more for a few seconds. This is useful to make sure they reach maximum speed as soon as possible. In a team pursuit event, the most powerful cyclist is placed at the front for the start of a race to make sure the team reaches maximum speed quickly. For four cyclists riding in a close line, the second cyclist uses about 74% of the power of the lead cyclist. The third and fourth cyclists use about 64% of the power of the lead cyclist.
https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/reso...48-pedal-power

This is behind a paywall... https://www.velonews.com/training/po...hile-training/

An NPR listener (with what may be the best Twitter handle ever — Booky McReaderpants) inquired whether a home can be powered by bicycle-powered generator.Pedaling a bike at a reasonable pace generates about 100 watts of power. That's the same energy-per-time used by a 100-watt lightbulb. So if you pedaled eight hours every day for 30 days (no weekends off), then doing the math, you'd generate 24 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy.
https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/20...me-with-a-bike

And this is a rather interesting interactive calculator of cycling power: https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

For a typical male tester to break the hour for 25 miles would require him to sustain about 250W of power (around 230 to 280W depending on body size, position on the bike and equipment, although I?ve seen as little as 200W in a pocket-rocket female national champ and well over 320W in a six-foot male). For our rider to shave 5 minutes off this time (ie 55 minutes and riding at 27.3mph) raises the required power by 70W and up to a 320W average. At a body weight of 75kg, that?s 4.3W/kg ? about the standard of a first or second-category male rider.One of the single most impressive rides I?ve seen in time trialling was Armstrong?s second place in the prologue of the 2005 Tour de France. To beat his main rival Jan Ullrich by 66 seconds in a 21-minute time trial is a colossal gap. Both riders were on the same stretch of road and only one minute separated them as they left the start house. Armstrong put a minute into all his major rivals, so it can?t be claimed that Ullrich was going easy and it?s unlikely that everyone was having a bad day at the office.

These riders will be sustaining a power output between 450 to 475W (6 to 6.6W/kg). At speeds of 50kph-plus and in a race of this duration, each 10 seconds faster requires about 8W more power, so at face value, this means a difference between Armstrong?s and Ullrich?s sustainable power of about 50W! Could he really have been a whole 10 per cent fitter than all his major competitors? I think not ? the difference in their physiological capabilities is probably not as great as that time margin suggests.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/archiv...the-pros-74026

And I could just break out the calculator... but damn, the whole thing was a metaphor about how some folks don't need the bandwidth of 5G just like most folks don't need excessively powerful cars... And at this point we have gone so far down the rabbit hole... I really don't care.

You actually gave good examples of when 5G was handy for you... while other folks clearly do not have that same need. <---- thus getting us all the way back to the OP.

Oh, and to answer ILTB's question... there is NO precise standard on 5G data speeds, except that it is an evolving technology, still in negotiation and that the ITU has accepted many variants. If you really want to know more... google ITU, 5G and 3GPP, and be prepared to wade through a lot of market speak. The "standard" is not really nailed down yet... other than "faster." So yeah, that's all it is. How "faster" is defined is somewhat wide open (except by the limitations of radio physics).
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Old 05-14-22, 08:06 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
Thanks for the replies? I guess as the OP I should chime in.

I'm going with the T-Mobile 5G box and getting rid of expensive cable service.
Glad you got the info you needed to make a decision! I learned some stuff too, but I think that has come to an end. I'm out
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Old 05-14-22, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
Thanks for the replies? I guess as the OP I should chime in.

I'm going with the T-Mobile 5G box and getting rid of expensive cable service. One of my co-workers has one and he's had no issues with it. For television I'm just going to go back to using a rooftop antenna; I live in the Los Angeles are so there's plenty of station I can get through it. I kept track of what I was watching over the last few months and its just broadcast news; all the stuff I used to watch on cable T.V. has gone behind paywalls so why keep it? Also, a lot of the sports that used to be shown for free can be accessed a few days later on YouTube.

5G - As I understand it at the basic level its a bigger digital pipe so more bits & bytes can be put through it at a faster rate, making it great for hi-def video and computer use. 4G is still adequate for my minimal phone needs (talk/text/data/some video) so that won't change.

Cheers
Thank you for chiming back in. I'm looking at that as well. Sometime soon I want to get rid of cable, and that was one option I was looking at. Please pop back in to let us know how it works, if you would.

Bike Forums: Where a 5g box can bring out the late 50's VW in us.
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Old 05-16-22, 11:09 AM
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To answer the OP...I was on vacation in the mountains recently and they had the Verizon 5G box installed in the cabin. Worked great for streaming bike racing, movies with me and the wife using it at the same time. This seemed like a good option since there was probably not a hard wire cable solution in that area. I have found Dish internet access pretty horrible on past vacations. I wouldn't switch at my own home unless it was less expensive. They don't offer it in my area yet anyways.
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Old 05-17-22, 09:30 AM
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genec
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Hey, more answers for the OP...

From a CNet report.

After several weeks of trying out T-Mobile's and Verizon's respective $50-per-month solutions, both have shown plenty of promise for eventually replacing my home broadband. But neither have been reliable enough to keep today, so for now, I'm switching back to a more focused home internet provider.

On Verizon's 5G Ultra Wideband network I can often find download speeds greater than 200Mbps (and sometimes over 300Mbps), an impressive connection that can easily handle all the gaming, streaming and working needs of myself and my two roommates.

Uploads, at least in the early days of my use, were around 20Mbps, or on par with my Spectrum cable connection.

Both carriers charge $50 for their 5G home internet offerings and those prices include taxes, fees and a modem/router in the monthly cost. Neither have data caps and both offer discounts on monthly service if you also have certain wireless plans.

Setting up either is also incredibly simple: Take the modem/router device out of the box, place it near a window and plug it in. No visits from a technician are required.
https://www.cnet.com/home/internet/v...ernet-with-5g/

Ultimately the tester returned to cable, as the wireless connection was not "consistent enough."

There are links within the report to other information about home based 5G.
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