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Tesla Cars and BlueTooth in the news - Not Twitter related

Old 05-17-22, 03:52 PM
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Tesla Cars and BlueTooth in the news - Not Twitter related

https://jalopnik.com/researchers-bre...blu-1848938417
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Old 05-17-22, 07:09 PM
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A lot of newer cars with those 'hands-off' remote FOBs have the same problem. Thieves can sit in a car in a parking lot and pick up signals when an owner drives in, then go over and enter the car after the owner walks away. The most theft resistant method I know of is using a 'chipped' key as it doesn't send out signals, just responds when inserted in the lock or start switch.

Also drive a manual transmission car; amazing how many folks don't know how to drive one!
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Old 05-17-22, 08:15 PM
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I have a theft prevention method but it is politically incorrect
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Old 05-17-22, 08:23 PM
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RFID badges have a similar issue. Like the ones office workers get to open the door. There's something that fits in a backpack to read the codes off cards in proximity, and then it's easy to print that onto a blank one and open doors.

That's the thing about over the air data transmission. I'm surprised Tesla didn't secure it.
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Old 05-18-22, 12:23 PM
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This hack seems to require continuous proximity to the original device being cloned.

Once the vehicle owner goes out of range, the car should die.

Still, if one had a chop shop, one might be able to get the vehicle into a transport with a Faraday cage, then off to the chop shop.

However, I have wondered if it is possible to fully clone a wireless key.
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Old 05-18-22, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
This hack seems to require continuous proximity to the original device being cloned.

Once the vehicle owner goes out of range, the car should die.

Still, if one had a chop shop, one might be able to get the vehicle into a transport with a Faraday cage, then off to the chop shop.

However, I have wondered if it is possible to fully clone a wireless key.
No, I think that requirement is only momentarily, while the code is captured. Then the computer/device used to capture the code is used to mimic the authorized device... and the car can be stolen. Sure, while the car is being driven, the hacking computer has to remain active... much like a key fob for cars that use them. (if you walk away the car starts beeping and then depending on the design, may alarm or shut down).

I doubt a mobile "Faraday Cage" is required... However, the car itself could probably be located by Tesla or the owner if pinged... so yeah, the thief is going to have to do something.

But bottom line... one would think there would be better security.
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Old 05-18-22, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
A lot of newer cars with those 'hands-off' remote FOBs have the same problem.
Nothing new about a car with keyless entry being vulnerable to being hacked into….with Tesla’s ‘Pin2Drive’ a would be thief can’t start it though! Tesla’s ‘Sentry Mode’ is a good deterrent to a normal break-in and it also lets you provide law enforcement with a video of the entire incident!
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Old 05-18-22, 04:16 PM
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My sisters Accord has that keyless stuff drives me berserk when I drive her car which is seldom. Usually when inspections are due and such the Burro gets the gig. I guess I would get use to it. Car theft out here is rare but in San Antonio?
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Old 05-18-22, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
My sisters Accord has that keyless stuff drives me berserk when I drive her car which is seldom. Usually when inspections are due and such the Burro gets the gig. I guess I would get use to it. Car theft out here is rare but in San Antonio?
The biggest issue I have with key fobs is what to do with them... For decades I have gone to the beach to do long swims... I can tie a regular key to my bathing suit... they are brass, and don't care about salt water.

Key fobs are "allergic" to salt water.
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Old 05-18-22, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
The biggest issue I have with key fobs is what to do with them... For decades I have gone to the beach to do long swims... I can tie a regular key to my bathing suit... they are brass, and don't care about salt water.

Key fobs are "allergic" to salt water.
Brass is far from being immune to salt water, although short exposures shouldn't be bad as long as you wash it off.

My '99 Ford has a chipped key. I presume it is fairly robust, but I don't know how it would do with salt water.

Some vehicles take an ordinary key to open the doors, and fob or smart key to start the vehicle. You could hide the fob in the vehicle, and take the door key. But, if a thief knew that, they could simply break the window and make off with the car.

Drybag?

My pickup fob started going bonkers, so I had to remove the battery. The fob still starts the pickup, and the key opens the door.
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Old 05-18-22, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
The biggest issue I have with key fobs is what to do with them... For decades I have gone to the beach to do long swims... I can tie a regular key to my bathing suit... they are brass, and don't care about salt water.

Key fobs are "allergic" to salt water.
This is one reason they invented swim buoys.
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Old 05-18-22, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
I have a theft prevention method but it is politically incorrect
What caliber?
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Old 05-18-22, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
What caliber?
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Old 05-19-22, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
This is one reason they invented swim buoys.
I had never used one before... I have seen others using them. but figured it was more or less just to mark the swimmer. I always use a bright orange swim cap, and figured that was good enough.

I actually put my GPS in a dry bag and towed it a couple of times to see exactly how long my route was. That was interesting, and yet a bit frustrating... as I had looped it over my neck and one shoulder and I could feel it the whole way. Also the GPS needed to stay in more of an "antenna up" position than I bargained for (water is a better attenuator of that weak RF signal than I realized).

I just looked into open water swim buoys and sure enough they have compartments to keep things water tight. Sounds like I need to get one. And just not wear it across my shoulder.

Thanks for the recommendation.
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Old 05-19-22, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post

Also drive a manual transmission car; amazing how many folks don't know how to drive one!
My wife and I grew up on driving manual transmission cars and trucks. I remembered the time when a new car salesman offered to drive a manual transmission car for my wife on a test drive, and to see the look on the salesman's face was priceless when my wife eased through the gears like a seasoned truck driver.
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Old 05-19-22, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by roundypndr View Post
My wife and I grew up on driving manual transmission cars and trucks. I remembered the time when a new car salesman offered to drive a manual transmission car for my wife on a test drive, and to see the look on the salesman's face was priceless when my wife eased through the gears like a seasoned truck driver.
I drove Ford Rangers with 5 speeds for years. It was like an automatic you become so accustomed to shifting. Being able to regulate how much power you wanted out of a gear was great. Descending mountain passes I would just shift into 3rd gear and just coast. Saving wear on the brakes.
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Old 05-19-22, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
The most theft resistant method I know of is using a 'chipped' key as it doesn't send out signals, just responds when inserted in the lock or start switch.
That is what my new 2022 Corolla came with. The key snaps out like a little switch blade after a press of the button on the fob!
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Old 05-19-22, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
I actually put my GPS in a dry bag and towed it a couple of times to see exactly how long my route was. That was interesting, and yet a bit frustrating... as I had looped it over my neck and one shoulder and I could feel it the whole way. Also the GPS needed to stay in more of an "antenna up" position than I bargained for (water is a better attenuator of that weak RF signal than I realized).
​​​​​​For what it's worth, modern sports watches have open water swim using GPS and pool swim where you tell it the length of the pool and it uses accelerometers to realize when you turn.
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Old 05-19-22, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​For what it's worth, modern sports watches have open water swim using GPS and pool swim where you tell it the length of the pool and it uses accelerometers to realize when you turn.
Cool... but not going to buy a $300 watch for just that. I have several GPSs that I use for sailing, with map charts.

I do use a Casio that has a thermometer built in... and stop watch... but that was about $50. I see that Casio has a GPS watch... for only $110... hmmmm. The only time I wear a watch is swimming.

BTW, I HATE pool swimming... yeah, I do it, to get ready for open water, and I do flip turns just fine thank you. Been "pool swimming" since high school swim team... borrrinnggg.

The thing I love about open water is the movement of the ocean and getting your rhythm just right... and not having to break that rhythm for the whole damn distance. Now having said that, one would think that ocean swimming also means never crashing into another swimmer... uh, not true. I have a few stories about that. Dang.

OK back to the Tesla BT thread... sorry folks for the diversion.
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Old 05-19-22, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Cool... but not going to buy a $300 watch for just that.
I don't know where those numbers come from, but a watch that does OWS starts around $700. It's 2022.

Edit to add: apparently some health insurance will provide you with a "free" Apple Watch. I wouldn't take the deal on privacy grounds, but the AW is reputed to be one of the best for OWS traces.

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Old 05-19-22, 06:30 PM
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I'm assuming this is the same vulnerability.


“What makes this powerful is not only that we can convince a Bluetooth device that we are near it—even from hundreds of miles away—but that we can do it even when the vendor has taken defensive mitigations like encryption and latency bounding to theoretically protect these communications from attackers at a distance,” said Sultan Qasim Khan, Principal Security Consultant and Researcher at NCC Group. “All it takes is 10 seconds—and these exploits can be repeated endlessly.”
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/vulnerabilities-found-in-bluetooth-low-energy-gives-hackers-access-to-numerous-devices/amp/
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Old 05-19-22, 07:44 PM
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The WA Notify app, for covid exposure tracking and contact tracing, and basically every similar app, must be vulnerable to false positives. Since they work using BT proximity, which can be faked.
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Old 05-19-22, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
I drove Ford Rangers with 5 speeds for years. It was like an automatic you become so accustomed to shifting. Being able to regulate how much power you wanted out of a gear was great. Descending mountain passes I would just shift into 3rd gear and just coast. Saving wear on the brakes.
Looking back, and it's hard for me to believe that all the manual transmission vehicles that have I've owned were either four on the floor or three on the tree, with my current vehicle now being an automatic.
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Old 05-19-22, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by roundypndr View Post
Looking back, and it's hard for me to believe that all the manual transmission vehicles that have I've owned were either four on the floor or three on the tree, with my current vehicle now being an automatic.
3 on the tree very admirable. That was some F uped shifting. If you could drive a three on the tree you were a cruising God lol. Four on the floor probably a Muncie 4 speed.
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Old 05-20-22, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
3 on the tree very admirable. That was some F uped shifting. If you could drive a three on the tree you were a cruising God lol. Four on the floor probably a Muncie 4 speed.

My last car with a three on the tree was a 69 Ford XL with a 240 six under the hood, as expected, it was not much in the horsepower department. The car's lack of horsepower made me modify Ford's moto of " Powered by Ford" , and having the local sign painter put " Powerless by Ford" on the front fender, much the amusement of my GM buddies and catching hell from my Ford friends. I still have my 60's muscle car from my youth, and with it having a Muncie "rock crusher" 4 speed.
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