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Why does poor have to be

Old 05-05-06, 01:02 PM
  #26  
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Being broke is a temporary condition, being poor is a state of mind...


Chipcom was talking about being broke at times, but having the right attitude will get you out. TG was talking about the folks who are continually broke because they have poor attitudes. It's a vicous circle because being broke can put you into moods that's all wrong, the wrong attitudes, the wrong spirituality, the wrong practices.

Personally I see money is just being energy, potential energy at that, it allows you to do things in the future, create results that aren't in existence now. Where did this energy come from? Your own hard work and sweat and other's hard work and sweat. You never actually make money, unless you've got a printing-press in the back-room or you're the Fed (a private bank).

So take out the money you have in your pocket, where did it come from? It came from an exchange, you gave someone something of value and benefit and they gave you money in return. The more people you benefit and the higher the value of your contribution to them, the more money you have. So to make a boatload of money, just look to help as many people as you can and make each each transaction of high value.

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Old 05-05-06, 01:05 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by ignominious
There are a number of cycles that cause the problems that you are witnessing.

Education: This is the biggie really. There is a failure to teach the need for socially productive behaviour and thus the behavious becomes anti-social. Subsequently efforts to teach socially acceptable behaviour are aimed at places where results are more apparent. The neglected place continue to decline.

Societal: We fail to respect these people and so they see themselves as unworthy of respect and thus do nothing to earn it. Naturally our ablility to respect diminishes.

Economic, environmental and so on. The cycles all go the same way.

I'm not going to outright blame the "haves" for the failing of the "have-nots" but we certainly contribute to a degree and those on the advantaged side are in a better position to effect change. If you ask people from these areas, practically none of them like their conditions but hey, what can any of them do about it? How are they going to be able to make change that lasts?
How have I failed? I pay 20+% to feed these people with social security, welfare, medicare, drug rehab programs, schools, teachers, etc. If it were up to me I'd only pay for national roads and put my tax money into my community and city, where I care about.
I mean ****, the more welfare you give them to "make" their lives easier, the more teachers you put there, the worse the problem becomes. Wake up people, solving the problem by being niocer, giving them more money, it's not worked for half a century plus. For some its not worked for a century plus. They're not getting smarter, They're not being patriotic, they're not caring for their children, their future, they're children's futures, their neighborhood. If something has failed so badly for so long, it's not going to solve the problem, and its not our fault that they gave up on life. They were that way a long, long time ago. I would put more blame on the schools then I would put the blame on anybody else, but ultimately it goes down to the parents.
What more do they want us to do ?
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Old 05-05-06, 01:05 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Being broke is a temporary condition, being poor is a state of mind...
Heh.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:13 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by ignominious
I'm not going to outright blame the "haves" for the failing of the "have-nots" but we certainly contribute to a degree and those on the advantaged side are in a better position to effect change. If you ask people from these areas, practically none of them like their conditions but hey, what can any of them do about it? How are they going to be able to make change that lasts?
It's a catch-22 eh? The "haves" tend to teach and train their kids in ways of thinking, ways of acting, ways of seeing themselves and others, such that will be prosperous. Those who do not teach their kids this way, ends up with spoiled-brats who will destroy the family fortune in a single generation. That's fine, they'll end up amongst the "have-nots" and learn a lesson.

On the other hand, the "have-nots" don't even have this resource available. There's no recent history of wealth and prosperity in their family, no one to learn from, no one to teach them the ways of thinking in abundance. Certainly our schools aren't teaching these things to kids. Schools teaches kids how to be good employees, not employers...

Our society has the power to change this, to bridge the gulf between haves and have-nots, but I don't think taxation and welfare is the way to do it. It has to be more active and require participation and learning from the have-nots. You have to change the way they think, to learn new skillz, have hands-on training. I think some sort of government-sponsored internship/apprenticeship programme would be a step in the right direction. Rather than just giving them money, have them earn it in a way that's going to be beneficial in the long-run (having more kids to get more money is not the answer).
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Old 05-05-06, 01:15 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by TexasGuy
How have I failed? I pay 20+% to feed these people with social security, welfare, medicare, drug rehab programs, schools, teachers, etc. If it were up to me I'd only pay for national roads and put my tax money into my community and city, where I care about.
I mean ****, the more welfare you give them to "make" their lives easier, the more teachers you put there, the worse the problem becomes. Wake up people, solving the problem by being niocer, giving them more money, it's not worked for half a century plus. For some its not worked for a century plus. They're not getting smarter, They're not being patriotic, they're not caring for their children, their future, they're children's futures, their neighborhood. If something has failed so badly for so long, it's not going to solve the problem, and its not our fault that they gave up on life. They were that way a long, long time ago. I would put more blame on the schools then I would put the blame on anybody else, but ultimately it goes down to the parents.
What more do they want us to do ?
C'mon, even I know that throwing money at a problem doesn't go away. It's what you do with that money and no, I'm not suggesting being nicer to them or giving them yet more money, I'm saying use that money to do something different. All to often programs and plans and projects are put in place with no consultation with the people that it directly affects and not giving them something that they want to care about.

Perhaps you should stop asking yourselves "what more do they want us to do" and start asking them what did they ever want us to do in the first place? Had we stopped trying to be clever and self-agrandising in the first place and asked this, then it probably would have cost a lot less money.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:19 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
It's a catch-22 eh? The "haves" tend to teach and train their kids in ways of thinking, ways of acting, ways of seeing themselves and others, such that will be prosperous. Those who do not teach their kids this way, ends up with spoiled-brats who will destroy the family fortune in a single generation. That's fine, they'll end up amongst the "have-nots" and learn a lesson.

On the other hand, the "have-nots" don't even have this resource available. There's no recent history of wealth and prosperity in their family, no one to learn from, no one to teach them the ways of thinking in abundance. Certainly our schools aren't teaching these things to kids. Schools teaches kids how to be good employees, not employers...

Our society has the power to change this, to bridge the gulf between haves and have-nots, but I don't think taxation and welfare is the way to do it. It has to be more active and require participation and learning from the have-nots. You have to change the way they think, to learn new skillz, have hands-on training. I think some sort of government-sponsored internship/apprenticeship programme would be a step in the right direction. Rather than just giving them money, have them earn it in a way that's going to be beneficial in the long-run (having more kids to get more money is not the answer).
Exactly, plus we need to do away with this mythologial link between wealth and quality of life.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:20 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by ignominious
C'mon, even I know that throwing money at a problem doesn't go away. It's what you do with that money and no, I'm not suggesting being nicer to them or giving them yet more money, I'm saying use that money to do something different. All to often programs and plans and projects are put in place with no consultation with the people that it directly affects and not giving them something that they want to care about.

Perhaps you should stop asking yourselves "what more do they want us to do" and start asking them what did they ever want us to do in the first place? Had we stopped trying to be clever and self-agrandising in the first place and asked this, then it probably would have cost a lot less money.
They lost track of what they wanted. Thats part of the reason why they're there. I've often wondered whether TV and a wide availability to beer is the reason for this. I mean if you were to ask some of these people, food, tv and beer might be the only things they want and personally I feel that there may be a large blame to be put on all of those problems on media. A world growing up into TV, being given the world with no need to get up and actually experience the world.

Maybe society didn't seem to have a need for them anymore. Maybe they just couldn't adjust to that. Who knows. All i know is you can see the hopelessness written on their faces.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:24 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by TexasGuy
Being poor does not mean you can do any of the things listed in this topic. My family was poor. We went from making 1/2 a million plus a year to to making zilch. We did not go around
How did that happen?? I can think of no way to go from making 500,000/year to less than even 50,000/year without having some idea it was going to happen and/or getting back to 500,000/year very quickly. What did you/your parents do for a living to even be making that much money? You had no savings/investments to fall back on? I'm sorry but I would not call your family poor if they ever made over 500,000/year even for one year. My parents make that much after about 16 or 17 years. Sorry for flaming but I just don't see being poor after making money like that.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:35 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by TYB069
How did that happen?? I can think of no way to go from making 500,000/year to less than even 50,000/year without having some idea it was going to happen and/or getting back to 500,000/year very quickly. What did you/your parents do for a living to even be making that much money? You had no savings/investments to fall back on? I'm sorry but I would not call your family poor if they ever made over 500,000/year even for one year. My parents make that much after about 16 or 17 years. Sorry for flaming but I just don't see being poor after making money like that.
Heh mom was siphoning all insurance payments to her parents. So in the end they got new farm equipment, think big bad ass john deer, big bad ass combine, whole new metal quancet capable of storing big john deer, combine and much more, new cattle, additions to houses, etc.
My parents straightened barns and raised haymows, and other farm related construction. We were one of the few general contractors at the time who traveled across the whole state raising whole barns. When the whole fiasco was done, the only thing that we had left monetary wise was money invested in vehicles, equipment and lumber.

Lesson learned here was, never ever trust anybody else with money, and money is fleeting, and invest in your future with it while you have it.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:37 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by TYB069
How did that happen?? I can think of no way to go from making 500,000/year to less than even 50,000/year without having some idea it was going to happen and/or getting back to 500,000/year very quickly. What did you/your parents do for a living to even be making that much money? You had no savings/investments to fall back on? I'm sorry but I would not call your family poor if they ever made over 500,000/year even for one year. My parents make that much after about 16 or 17 years. Sorry for flaming but I just don't see being poor after making money like that.
My dad was I think 55 at the time. The money that had supposedly been being put away was supposed to go towards retirement and we were supposed to be able to be trained to do the same thing. At some point you run out of energy and that was his. Barn straightening is extremely tough work. It's hard to tell whether the loss of the money hurt him alot more then he showed, because he came from an era where he started working for a quarter a day or something.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:44 PM
  #36  
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Pigmode is right: this belongs in another forum.

But, Pico Rivera and Boyle Heights had the same knid of crap in their neighborhoods, even worse. Concerned citizens got together and over a long perod of time were able to out-number the scum to make some improvements. Boyle Heights has the benefit of being within the city limits of LA, and has had a LAN project going for it. Rivera's business and political leaders worked together (somewhat) to bring some sorely needed economic changes to their city in the 80s and 90s.

An analogy: if you have a really crappy bike because you're broke most of the time and can't afford a new one, and the paint gets scratched, do you pay for a new paint job? Probably not. How often would you give it a tune up? Would you pay for new cables, or keep reusing the old ones? New handle bar tape? You'd fix the flat tires and that's about it. You'd probably even leave it in the rain and not give a crap about it.
But if a new friend invited you to go riding with him, then showed you a few ways to fix up your bike so it worked a little better, or gave you some of his spare parts or loaned you a few bucks, you'd start liking your bike better, taking better care of it.

Once a person sees that their home, school, neighborhood, town is cared about, generally speaking, they will start to care too.

But all we have are the generalities in life, no guarentees.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:46 PM
  #37  
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Shokhead, I deeply resent your ad hominim generalizations on poor people. We filed on less than $15.000 this year and funny thing is your generalization as full of *****, just like you

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Old 05-05-06, 01:46 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by chromedome
Once a person sees that their home, school, neighborhood, town is cared about, generally speaking, they will start to care too.

But all we have are the generalities in life, no guarentees.
In a perfect life they would care. In too many cases they don't, or don't for long enough.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:49 PM
  #39  
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Thing I learned growing up is that life does not give second chances. By that, I mean, once you quit, it's over...you are not going to get back up, period.

No matter how bad life gets, no matter how downtrodden you feel, if you cannot get up, flip life the middle finger, and get on with your day, you are very close to that fine line.

What I mean by that, is that life is a struggle. There is nothing easy about it, and never was. A life without problems isn't even life at all, actually it would be hell....you need hardship to understand joy. And in this life, once employers and people brand you as a quitter, it's pretty much the end of your chances to land a good paying job.

The problem with many of the poor is they refused to struggle, therefore they never succeed, thus no joy. It's a downward spiral, which sadly ends in the death of one's passion and spirit.

I've seen some of the worst, I've lived in a neighborhood like one of those for a while. It was depressing in a way that is mind-boggling. Some of these people were incredibly intelligent, as much as any college student. However they chose to not get an education, and of all reasons because they felt that the entire world was as desolate as their ghetto was.

It's just beyond words...
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Old 05-05-06, 01:52 PM
  #40  
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How's that saying go, something about a horse to water and drinking or somethin'?

You do want you can for people, if they don't want to change their lives, that's fine, let them be. Your energy's better spent elsewhere that can benefit others in bigger ways.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:53 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by catatonic
Thing I learned growing up is that life does not give second chances. By that, I mean, once you quit, it's over...you are not going to get back up, period.

No matter how bad life gets, no matter how downtrodden you feel, if you cannot get up, flip life the middle finger, and get on with your day, you are very close to that fine line.

What I mean by that, is that life is a struggle. There is nothing easy about it, and never was. A life without problems isn't even life at all, actually it would be hell....you need hardship to understand joy. And in this life, once employers and people brand you as a quitter, it's pretty much the end of your chances to land a good paying job.

The problem with many of the poor is they refused to struggle, therefore they never succeed, thus no joy. It's a downward spiral, which sadly ends in the death of one's passion and spirit.

I've seen some of the worst, I've lived in a neighborhood like one of those for a while. It was depressing in a way that is mind-boggling. Some of these people were incredibly intelligent, as much as any college student. However they chose to not get an education, and of all reasons because they felt that the entire world was as desolate as their ghetto was.

It's just beyond words...
Yes. very true words
Very excellently and eloquently put.
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Old 05-05-06, 01:59 PM
  #42  
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This is some offensive stuff. Have any of you been poor? There are tons of decent, hard working poor people in the same way there are tons of idiot rich people that don't deserve a damn bit of it. I'm with you Stacey, this is hateful nonsense.
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Old 05-05-06, 02:00 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
How's that saying go, something about a horse to water and drinking or somethin'?

You do want you can for people, if they don't want to change their lives, that's fine, let them be. Your energy's better spent elsewhere that can benefit others in bigger ways.
25-35% contribution to why I am not pursuing a field in teaching, despite that i've taught many a kid from kindegarten to algebra I. Can't teach those who don't want to learn and at some point you realize that it's just not worth it.
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Old 05-05-06, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by barba
This is some offensive stuff. Have any of you been poor? There are tons of decent, hard working poor people in the same way there are tons of idiot rich people that don't deserve a damn bit of it. I'm with you Stacey, this is hateful nonsense.
barba, why don't you go through and read the posts clearly, with a more open mind.
We already commented on how the opening line was very mis leading and etc. We've moved beyond that. Why don't you
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Old 05-05-06, 02:25 PM
  #45  
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Dude, there's a difference between low-income, and "poor", it's called desire.

low-income people do have drive, and they do work hard. Thing is, they never gave up. They might have had a crisis and nearly gave up (as we all have at one time or another), but they chose to march on, and do their best.

Poor is purely a frame of mind. Key to making it in this world is work...work hard, play hard, and keep your head straight. It's too easy to become complacent in this world...and complacency is the first step to that downward spiral.

Always try to learn something new everyday. Try to experience something new every week. And never, never say "I can't"...instead say "one day I will". It's not about how much money you make, it's about a person's outlook on life.

A person who looks at everything in a negative way, will always see bad. The thing is to see what is good in the bad, so you can improve on it. that takes at least a slightly positive outlook.
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Old 05-05-06, 02:44 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by ignominious
There are a number of cycles that cause the problems that you are witnessing.

Education: This is the biggie really. There is a failure to teach the need for socially productive behaviour and thus the behavious becomes anti-social. Subsequently efforts to teach socially acceptable behaviour are aimed at places where results are more apparent. The neglected place continue to decline.

Societal: We fail to respect these people and so they see themselves as unworthy of respect and thus do nothing to earn it. Naturally our ablility to respect diminishes.

Economic, environmental and so on. The cycles all go the same way.

I'm not going to outright blame the "haves" for the failing of the "have-nots" but we certainly contribute to a degree and those on the advantaged side are in a better position to effect change. If you ask people from these areas, practically none of them like their conditions but hey, what can any of them do about it? How are they going to be able to make change that lasts?
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Old 05-05-06, 02:52 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by TexasGuy
How have I failed? I pay 20+% to feed these people with social security, welfare, medicare, drug rehab programs, schools, teachers, etc. If it were up to me I'd only pay for national roads and put my tax money into my community and city, where I care about.
I mean ****, the more welfare you give them to "make" their lives easier, the more teachers you put there, the worse the problem becomes. Wake up people, solving the problem by being niocer, giving them more money, it's not worked for half a century plus. For some its not worked for a century plus. They're not getting smarter, They're not being patriotic, they're not caring for their children, their future, they're children's futures, their neighborhood. If something has failed so badly for so long, it's not going to solve the problem, and its not our fault that they gave up on life. They were that way a long, long time ago. I would put more blame on the schools then I would put the blame on anybody else, but ultimately it goes down to the parents.
What more do they want us to do ?
Just today these are the cars they had,a Lexus RX300,03 Altima 3.5,bmw 325xi, 05 Grand Cherokee,a hot 66 bug,old saturn,even older VW,new pathfinder,62 chevy belair. These parents picked up there kids from kindergarden and everyone of the kids had a free lunch from the form the parents fill out saying they didnt make enough money to pay for it. We have a total of 1250 students. Wanta know hopw big our pta is,ZERO. The parents dont want to do that,its all up to someone else.
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Old 05-05-06, 02:58 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Stacey
Shokhead, I deeply resent your ad hominim generalizations on poor people. We filed on less than $15.000 this year and funny thing is your generalization as full of *****, just like you

*****wad
Did i use your name,nope. Maybe i should say a poor neighborhood. Do you do the things i listed,i'm thinking not. If it bothers you,sorry. Of course i'm full of sh$h so i guess that doesnt mean anything either.
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Old 05-05-06, 03:00 PM
  #49  
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Yo yo yo wait hold on. I'm not very well to do. I don't make a whole lot of money. I work over 40 hours per week and live paycheck to paycheck. My brother is helping me with investments to help secure our futures. I don't have good health insurance.

I don't make a junkyard of my neighborhood and I have respect for others. I don't steal, I don't lie. I try not to be mean to others. I struggle to survive, but I don't think anyone owes me anything. The only reason I own the bikes I have is due to a coffee can I throw change in. Everything I own (which is not much) I have earned.

I have an education but chose not to continue in Psychology. I COULDN'T continue in Administration of Law.

I don't get food stamps, or welfare although I qualify.

But I'll tell you what I do have. I have family. I have friends. I know that I'm not doing anything wrong so I won't get into trouble. I know I work hard so nobody can say that I don't. I pay my taxes and anything else I might owe. I try not to hurt any one. I try to be honest. I give to others what I can afford to take away from myself. I try to have an open mind and open heart. I give time to those around me. I have inner peace.

Yes, I don't have a lot of money.

I must be the lowest of the low.
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Old 05-05-06, 03:03 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by TexasGuy
And they don't care to make their neighboord a better place, instead they choose to trash it. They don't care to make their children better people, and so their children run all over the place doing whatever they want. And then the overall value of the neigbhorhood drops and more people just like them move there. And the cycle just grows, year by year, and eventually generation by generation, all because these people stoped caring and stopped growing.
My wife and I participate in a tutoring program that put us in some of the most impoverished parts of OKC. TexasGuy, you've hit it right on the head. They don't care. The more we get to know the kids and their families the more we find that they don't care about improving their way of life. Anything that involves effort, like cleaning the house or the neighborhood, or going out and getting a job, they want no part of. And the kids are learning that this is the only way of life. My wife and I are getting really frustrated that the efforts of the group we're working with can't make a dent in the values the kids are being taught by their families. It's really sad.

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