Go Back  Bike Forums > The Lounge > Foo
Reload this Page >

teaching is a thankless job

Foo Off-Topic chit chat with no general subject.

teaching is a thankless job

Old 08-25-07, 11:47 AM
  #51  
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Posts: 16,966

Bikes: Trek Fuel EX 8 27.5 +, 2002 Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not good enough. Not enough seperation. We had that in the 80's too. Advanced was for university, general for college and basic were generally misfits. There still was very little flexibility. Heck even first year university offered very little flexibility in what was taught.

I would have loved the work-study...I think thats a good idea, with potential to go wrong. It also wouldn't have worked for me in my home town, no IT places to work.

And in my experience. Most teachers were like that jackass. I have very few fond memories of teachers. Most were self absorbed and believing they were doing a good job, when in reality (again thanks to the system/budget/design) alienating half the class.

Personally, I don't think it can be "fixed"...it needs to be rebuilt. In my home town now, they have an IT highschool (heck it might include the younger levels, I am not sure of the range) regardless of where you live, if you show an interest and skillset in computers you got to go here. THAT is a step in the right direction.

I realize it comes down to budget, in the end thats what it is always about. Not enough teachers, not enough time etc...
Maelstrom is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 12:20 PM
  #52  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Warden11 View Post
Many high schools already do what you are talking about. They have two different types of high school diplomas- basically a college bound and non-college bound. If a student chooses not to do the college bound courses they take courses that are geared towards what they will face. It is kind of limited because a public school must follow a budget. The way around this is with work-study courses, but these normally turn into a joke because the cooperating business has no clue how to use an untrained high school kid. Therefore, they are stuck doing meaningless things.

As far as the computer teacher in your situation, that person is a jackass and far from the norm in schools. Especially with ADA.

I wanted him to post solutions because then I can show that most of what people "think" needs done is already being done or there is usually a very good reason why it is not.
It is called programmed learning - works great. You learn at your own pace assuming you learned to read in 1st grade. You read, you learn to comprehend what you read. You study (notice no teacher) - then someone administers a test.

The purpose of a teacher in this environment is to help when someone is stuck. No bored kids. Used a lot of private schools and home school. Why not public?

We did much better with one room school houses (which are used extensively in the campo in Costa Rica by the way) before we decided it was smart to pack all the kids in one class based on age. NOT based on IQ, NOT based on learning, NOT based on anything other than age.

Great if you want to spend all day sorting out who is the toughest for you age, awful for a learning environment.

Like most educators you keep saying nothing can be done - and the rest of the world continues to do just fine thank you. How are the scores of the USA compared to other similar nations in math, science, etc.? The school system is a failure.
crtreedude is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 12:35 PM
  #53  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
But basically it is very simple, the NEA needs to have enough concern for the kids that they force change. Throwing up your hands saying "What can we do?" is silly when you are being beaten by other countries.

If people's jobs were on the line based on performance (i.e. kill tenure) I rather suspect they would find ways to get the job done.
crtreedude is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 12:40 PM
  #54  
late
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,547
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8874 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 27 Times in 26 Posts
This is both easy and impossible.

It is easy in that there is enough money. All you have to do is design and build a state of the art education system and the schools to go along with it. There would be a cost in designing and building the new system. It would be nice if you could design the system in such a way that bureaucracy would not be permitted to grow. This should also have performance evaluation for teachers, with pay commensurate to the increased level of accomplishment.

Impossible in that not only does everyone not want it, they actually hate the idea.

School is about education. If you spend the money for education and nothing else, you can do the job.

Currently we throw money away on buses, athletics, warehousing the ******** and cooking classes.

I do not have the competence to be onthe design team for the new system.
So I am guessing here. But it seems to me that we need to pay attention to how and when and why kids learn. For example, kids learn languages very young. After that it's very hard. So teach them when they are learning.

Kids lose a huge amount of what they learned over summer vacation. One possibility would be to give an annual national acheivement test on Aug 1st.
A quick brush up would get them back up to speed, and then another one in the fall.

One of the reasons science education is controversial is because it is awful.
Labs are expensive, as are good teachers. But if we were spending money on education we could teach hands on science.

If there is anyone I have NOT honked off, I overlooked you.
Let me know, I can find something that will honk you off as well.
late is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 12:53 PM
  #55  
Warden11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 103

Bikes: Trek 7.2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm not a member of NEA because I agree with what you are saying about tenure and their fight against change in schools. I just think way too many people paint this topic with a very wide brush. The IT school is something that's a good idea. What do you do in a town of 5k to 10k people who don't have access to that?

Once again, our education scores are not that bad. People want to compare them to other countries. Take a look at the penalties for not being the best in your class in those countries. Those students not at the top get a ticket to go to the military or to being a peasant. The motivation factor in those countries is much more in play. Here, a kid can screw off in school and still do just fine in life. A lot of students know that. If we want students to take more pride in their education, our society needs to come up with some sort of incentive.

There has already been 2 or 3 posters here that have stated they did not finish high school but turned out just fine. Our country allows for that. The countries we are always compared do not allow for that.
Warden11 is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 01:13 PM
  #56  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Kids have better get a clue they are in competition with the rest of the world now. I am dropping out of software after more than 25 years. When I started, everyone talked like me. (native English speaker) - Now? The native English speakers tend to work in Tech Support - and the engineers are from other countries. Most of the Professors in college in Technical and Science are foreign as well.

Well, one way or another it will change. Just sad that a generation or two will be peasants first. But, it is OK, they will feel good about themselves - right?

It isn't about money - plenty of money in the system. It is about having a goal.

Sorry for being so sarcastic but I am sick and tired of the excuses and I can clearly see where this is going. After all, I don't live up there, I live in a country who abolished their army in favor of national health care and education. What an eye opener! (and I am a citizen of the USA if you all didn't know)

I guess I wouldn't be so frustrated if I didn't care. When you see so little money accomplishing so much here, you know we are screwed up. Perhaps it is because here people actually want to learn.
crtreedude is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 10:57 PM
  #57  
goldfishin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i may be a bit odd. but here's my experience with edutcation. i had a 1.99 gpa in high school. my family was turning to mush and i had some realy bad anxiety problems, and i still do have some anxiety problems. i don't recall the high shcool counselor telling me much of anything at all, and i had no clue of what i was going to do after college. anyway, after three years of hell (REALLY bad anxiety problems. i wouldn't even hardly go outside the house at that time). i ended up in college, the first three years were hell because of how broke i was and a lack of family support. i tried being a science major but found i can't recall anything. it's very hard for me to concentrate on things and hard for me to remember anything precisely. at first i did fine with math and science, but as time went on i flopped after about 2 years. i've never done well in language classes either always making a c or a d. so, now i'm an art student with a 3.3 gpa (too many damn B's).

the biggest problems i've noticed is that they jam a ton of info into your head in too short a time frame. i mean, why did i go to grade school to take this sampling of classes? i don't recall ANYTHING from grade school except that i couldn't understand algebra (in college i got to calculus 2 at least). what is the point in taking 7 classes a day? it's as though no real time is spent on any one of them and all of them just sort of wash together as some sort of meaningless jibberish. for me that was a big problem. apparently, according to a test i took anyway, i have a 125 iq... that should be enough intelligence to understand things...


i don't know what i'm saying anymore and it's bed time. good night.
goldfishin is offline  
Old 08-25-07, 11:15 PM
  #58  
FlyingAnchor
Senior Member
 
FlyingAnchor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Humboldt County Ca
Posts: 301

Bikes: All Recumbent, Strada and TT Tour

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Along the same line, there are online colleges that allow you to learn at your own speed, so instead of taking 12 to 15 units at once you take one course at a time. This allows you to focus on one aspect and get it into your head rather than taking GE units at the same time you take some of your major units.

I really like the idea of this method. I am going to go back to college and get some upper unit education and I expect I will do it this way. Part of the problem is only some courses are offered this way, You can't for example take Spanish or Music as an online Major, it is mostly business and the like.

I do really hate the NEA and what it stand for, they are mostly what is wrong with our system IMO.

Well I start teaching on Monday and I am really looking forward to it.

By the way, I have cancelled classes because the students didn't take it seriously enough, it was supposed to be a class you show up to and automatically got an A. They were surprised when they came in and no longer had access to easy credits. This year I am giving it one more attempt and I have already told management that if it happens again, it goes away.

Steven
FlyingAnchor is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 01:01 AM
  #59  
v1k1ng1001
Gorntastic!
 
v1k1ng1001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: United States of Mexico
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by atomship47 View Post
i have a buddy that decided to change professions. he went back to school and just started teaching high school english. he worked ft while going to school ft and still had a family, etc. i'm impressed.

then, i talk to him yesterday. we end up talking about the "quality" of students nowadays, etc. he mentions that one of his classes didn't know gulible was no longer considered a word. it has been taken out of the dictionary.

well, i have never heard that either so i looked it up. several on-line dictionaries still listed it...and it wasn't listed at slang or colloquial. i looked at my old webster's dictionary from high school. its in there too.

how the hell can we as tax payers feel comfortable with our educators when things like this happen. i mean, he's an english teacher for christ's sake! he should know better. and our taxes are paying his salary. ridiculous.
Best demonstration of performative irony I've ever seen. Sounds like a great teacher to me. Sorry you got pwned.
__________________
v1k1ng1001 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 02:09 AM
  #60  
v1k1ng1001
Gorntastic!
 
v1k1ng1001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: United States of Mexico
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by late View Post
I forget the details, but I remember a piece on radio that was about this phenomenal teacher. He taught in a poor area and I think over 90% of his kids went to college.

Ah, he wrote a book, Teach like your hair was on fire.
http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Like-You...7979619&sr=1-1

There are good teachers.

What we have is an antiquated system hamstrung by politics. And when I say politics, almost everyone wants and gets their pound of flesh out of the public school system. Conservatives are always hovering with sharp instruments. Liberals have their well known agenda. Sports fans are willing to let their kids become drolling morons; far too many would be willing to empty the schools as long as the teams still play.

You want to know why American education sucks? Look in the mirror.

And it won't change.
+9999

The ancient Greeks posed the question, what is education for the sake of? Unfortunately, in 2400 years, we've not only failed to answer that question, we've forgotten how to ask it. As best I can tell our understanding of education is not even education in the Greek and Roman sense, as "educare" or the drawing out and perfecting of one's being. Beyond all of the management-speak that now prevails among administrators and politicians, education has devolved into mere instruction or "outcome"-based discipline. Basically we enter into a series of institutions that literally inform us such that we become complacent producers and consumers. The good teacher is the one who best disciplines his or her students in a series of narrow tasks whose "outcomes" can be measured.

I agree there are good teachers. They work with this ancient sense that teaching is really not discipline but the perfection of being. But their successes are in spite of the status quo, not because of it.

When I was a research assistant at Penn State, I went into the archives and looked in detail at the curriculum in the second half of the 19th century. Basically students 130 years ago had to be able to translate ancient Greek, ancient Latin and two other languages in order to graduate. They had to take courses in logic, rhetoric, epistemology, moral philosophy (usually taught by the president of the university), algebra, geometry, calculus, all fields of the sciences and literature to earn their degrees. You get the idea.

What, by comparison, do we have to say about our culture and its educational values? I can tell you this, students in the education department at Penn State can earn that same Penn State degree by paying their tuition bill and not pissing on themselves.
__________________
v1k1ng1001 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 03:44 AM
  #61  
fujibike
Senior Member
 
fujibike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Delaware
Posts: 369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Indy_Rider View Post
Apparently so, since there are very bright people out there that never want to college. There are kids that are home schooled, they turn out find. People learn on there own all of the time.
fujibike is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 09:46 AM
  #62  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by goldfishin View Post
i may be a bit odd. but here's my experience with edutcation. i had a 1.99 gpa in high school. my family was turning to mush and i had some realy bad anxiety problems, and i still do have some anxiety problems. i don't recall the high shcool counselor telling me much of anything at all, and i had no clue of what i was going to do after college. anyway, after three years of hell (REALLY bad anxiety problems. i wouldn't even hardly go outside the house at that time). i ended up in college, the first three years were hell because of how broke i was and a lack of family support. i tried being a science major but found i can't recall anything. it's very hard for me to concentrate on things and hard for me to remember anything precisely. at first i did fine with math and science, but as time went on i flopped after about 2 years. i've never done well in language classes either always making a c or a d. so, now i'm an art student with a 3.3 gpa (too many damn B's).

the biggest problems i've noticed is that they jam a ton of info into your head in too short a time frame. i mean, why did i go to grade school to take this sampling of classes? i don't recall ANYTHING from grade school except that i couldn't understand algebra (in college i got to calculus 2 at least). what is the point in taking 7 classes a day? it's as though no real time is spent on any one of them and all of them just sort of wash together as some sort of meaningless jibberish. for me that was a big problem. apparently, according to a test i took anyway, i have a 125 iq... that should be enough intelligence to understand things...


i don't know what i'm saying anymore and it's bed time. good night.
One problem that exists in many schools is the fact that they do not account for various learning styles. Everyone is put into the same mold and expected to fit it. As pointed out, some students get the material after only a few problems then have to sit there while everyone else catches up. Most teachers aren't paid enough to develop separate lesson plans and so forth for all these different groups.

Another issue is discipline. Not all schools have a terrible time with it, but I have seen some that have. I did some volunteer teaching last spring at a high school where the discipline issues were such a problem that they were having trouble hiring and keeping teachers on staff. I sat in on some of the classes and the teachers spent so much time keeping students in line, doing paperwork to have them sent home when they misbehaved, etc. that only a fraction of class time was spent on learning. What a shame for the students who were there to actually accomplish something.

A friend of mine worked as a teacher's aide at a school where there was one child who acted up on a regular basis. It got to the point where this student (it was either a kindergartener or 1st grader), was doing things such as (1) pushing chairs into people - students and teachers alike (2) throwing food on people and (3) spitting. The first time this happened, I asked my friend what the school was going to do about it, but she wasn't sure. The second and THIRD time, I said well how come they didn't kick the student out, suspend him. etc. This went on for several more times and apparently the kid was still allowed to come to class. I don't know the whole story or even how it ended (if it ever did), but this is ridiculous. Leaving a student like that in the school interferes with the learning process for everyone else. Why should the good students have to suffer on account of a few bad apples?

For people teaching K-12, what does your school allow you to do in cases like this?
Snicklefritz is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 10:54 AM
  #63  
goldfishin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
oh, and i should mention that if you're only gonna spend 45 minutes on a class, IMO, it's probably not worth bothering with. it'd be nice if they'd just focus on a few classes that taught how a person to learn on their own throughout all the sectors of academia (sp?). it'd be nice if they just spend 2 hours 5 times a week on math at first and then moved on to science, for example, after all the classes on math up to at least a basic, but full, understanding of caculus had been obtained. most of this stuff isn't hard to understand once you become comfortable with it. i think they should spend less time teaching students useless crap that they aren't going to remember anyway (mostly not remembering it because one class is just a single piece in a whole mountain of confetti), and more time on teaching them things that could lead to further learning. i think they should focus less on memorizing forgetful and normally useless info.

also, spending less time on, but placing more importance on school might not be a bad idea. i think 7.5 hours a day is a bit much. it should be more like 4 hours with some modest homework. the rest of the time should be spent in an environment where they could explore the world freely.
goldfishin is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 10:54 AM
  #64  
Warden11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 103

Bikes: Trek 7.2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In a case like that you would have to start an evaluation process to determine if the student needs an IEP (Individualized Education Plan). Sounds like that student should qualify for Emotionally Disturbed/Behavior Plan. However, that means they are now a special ed. student. Due to our laws of placing students in the least restrictive environment the parent of that child can say- He/She will stay in the classroom. After that there are endless possibilities for hte placement of the student. The problem with that is the evaluation procedure will take at least 2 months. That's 1/4th of the year before anything official is completed.
Warden11 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 11:10 AM
  #65  
mirona
I can't find my pants
 
mirona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UMASS, Amherst/ Swick, MA
Posts: 2,331

Bikes: 07 Specialized Langster Comp,06 Kona King Zing, 06 Specialized Rockhopper Pro Disc; 03 LOOK KG461;(destroyed by suv); 85 Panasonic Team America; 73 Peugeot U0-8; 94 Balance Super B BMX; 04 Diamondback Outlook MTB, Diamondback DBR DH

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i are h8 my teechers
mirona is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 11:12 AM
  #66  
Andronicus
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14

Bikes: More than a few. Less than a dozen.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mirage1 View Post
That's actually a joke, a play on the meaning of the word: "Hey, did you know gullible is not in the dictionary?" The joke--in case you'd missed it--is that people who ARE gullible may actually believe you.

Are you entirely sure he wasn't pulling your leg? (Not literally--that's a phrase that means "teasing you by saying something that seems true but is actually a joke." )
I was laughing as I read it ... I think most of us swallowed it for a least a beat or two ...
Andronicus is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 11:45 AM
  #67  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
When my son was young, he had a bully who decided to make his life hell. I found out about it. We went into see the principal to see what could be done. Now, this wasn't just the normal fooling around between kids, but a systematic persecution - as most of us know so well from our school days.

The principal said, "there is nothing we can do, the parents aren't responding and our hands are tied" Well, I have never believed that you can not find a way to fix any problem.

I said, "If the little thug comes within 10 feet of my son one more time for whatever reason, I will sue you and his parents until you have nothing in this world except your underwear and I will only leave that because I don't want it!"

The next day the kid remained on the other side of the room, no matter which side my son was at the time. The kid eventually ended up being a friend of my son as well. Threaten people's pocketbook and somehow they figure out how to get the message across to the kid.

All you have to do is provide the proper motivation...

Discipline is about strength of character. Unfortunately, we have a education filled with people with no backbone. Imagine if the teachers got together and said - if a parent threatens to sue us for appropriate discipline - we ALL walk off the job instantly- and send the kids home immediately. Since you can't teach without discipline, why bother?
crtreedude is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 11:49 AM
  #68  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
By the way, a decade or so ago, I was writing computer based training for McGraw-Hill for their educational books. I had a discussion with an Executive Editor and asked him why not more classes were taught using computers.

He said if he were to create the materials, the schools would stop buying all his books as a reaction to fear of eventually losing their jobs. He said tests were done where it was shown that a good CBT could educate better than the current teacher / student arrangement. But, because of entrenched teachers - they couldn't produce it.

I notice the the Internet is eroding that now - eventually people just might figure out that if you can learn college level stuff over the Internet - perhaps, just perhaps less advanced topics can be learned as well?
crtreedude is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 12:27 PM
  #69  
Warden11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 103

Bikes: Trek 7.2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by crtreedude View Post
By the way, a decade or so ago, I was writing computer based training for McGraw-Hill for their educational books. I had a discussion with an Executive Editor and asked him why not more classes were taught using computers.

He said if he were to create the materials, the schools would stop buying all his books as a reaction to fear of eventually losing their jobs. He said tests were done where it was shown that a good CBT could educate better than the current teacher / student arrangement. But, because of entrenched teachers - they couldn't produce it.

I notice the the Internet is eroding that now - eventually people just might figure out that if you can learn college level stuff over the Internet - perhaps, just perhaps less advanced topics can be learned as well?
You are correct. Now we just need to have everyone with a reliable internet connection and a computer on which to learn.
Warden11 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 12:35 PM
  #70  
cyclezealot
Senior Member
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Posts: 13,192

Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1259 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My wife was a high school teacher for almost 20 years. She could not take it anymore. I was glad she got out. Her school needed metal detectors in order to make her secure. Yet, they never got it installed. And she always lucked out in that her room was up on the second floor. A ritual of the last week of school. There will likely be a riot and likely pepper spray will be needed to get it under control.
Now she teaches adults English as a second language. She is much happier. One thing which makes life miserable for teachers; even worse than bratty kids just wanting to party, is principals with their heads up their azzes. So many principals , its just a scape goat job.So many are there, because they can't teach. And ever notice the revolving door pattern with principals. It is worse than city managers.
cyclezealot is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 12:50 PM
  #71  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Warden11 View Post
You are correct. Now we just need to have everyone with a reliable internet connection and a computer on which to learn.
There is almost in production a portable for 200 dollars. You can uses a DVD player for the class work - and they can mail back the answers to a centralized location. It might take a day or two to get grades, but they can wait - faster than most teachers grading.

Next question? I figure for 3 to 5 hundred dollars per student we are set - A bit cheaper than 5 to 8 thousand dollars.

Warden, I am not trying to pick on you but your attitude is so classically what is wrong. Instead of thinking, "Hey, we might be able to do this..." , you come up with objections - and simple ones at that.

Just like the principal in my example of discipline - when the feet are held to the fire, all of suddenly solutions become apparent where all seemed hopeless before.

Give you another example. I once was the Chairman of hardware and software integration in a project called "Database Processing for Disabled People" Given you don't have to be physically competent to use computers, instead of putting people on disability, they would be retrained. It worked excellently by the way and won several awards.

The consultant company I worked for hired some of the people after their graduation, one who was a teacher who was "disabled" because he had ADDS. Well, half our consultants could have been diagnosed as having ADDS (myself included) so I was happy to have him.

He was assigned to me (pity the fool) and so we started. After about a week of him interrupting me all the time I finally had enough. I told him, "Stop talking, if you talking again before I am finished I will fire you on the spot." I then proceeded to cover the entire project while he took notes - for 2 hours. No breaks.

He did fine, took great notes and never lost his attention once. After I was finished I pointed out that all he needed was self discipline, since, given the right motivation, he did fine.

On a sad note, there was a serious repercussion from this intervention. Two weeks later he quit and returned to teaching. I used to have a very nice letter from him thanking for helping him learn he didn't have to leave teaching. I also had a letter from the superintendent regarding my "miracle" cure. (he never did tell people what I did - but gave me credit for the change. )

My point is that we can do so much more than we think. One of the biggest problems I see is giving people excuses. Don't give people excuses, give them help.
crtreedude is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 01:07 PM
  #72  
v1k1ng1001
Gorntastic!
 
v1k1ng1001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: United States of Mexico
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Warden11 View Post
You are correct. Now we just need to have everyone with a reliable internet connection and a computer on which to learn.
I totally disagree. This model plays into the disciplinary "outcomes" based approach to education as instruction. In other words, it makes sense only if you've already abandoned the possibility that quality education might exist.

It works well for classes like mathematics or logic. For example, with the right materials, I was able to teach myself a semester's course in logic. It only took me ten days. Consequently, I never want to teach to logic even though it is an easy prep. Why would I want to sit in a classroom endlessly rehearsing proofs that students ought to be able to learn in a week's time? Let them take this course online.

This model doesn't work so hot for sciences unless you make the mistake (which apparently Penn State does) of believing that science education is about learning a body of knowledge rather than being acculturated into the community of experimental inquiry. Students need to learn how to execute in the lab and that requires equipment and at least some minimal guidance.

And for classes like literature or philosophy it just simply fails. I've taught philosophy in both the classroom and over the internet. Intelligent students who take and online course maybe come away with 1/3 - 1/2 what the average student in the classroom takes away.

Maybe an example would illustrate this. This book is one of the essential texts in the history of philosophy:

http://www.class.uidaho.edu/mickelse...Phen%20ToC.htm

Try to figure it out on your own between now and mid December.
__________________
v1k1ng1001 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 01:14 PM
  #73  
v1k1ng1001
Gorntastic!
 
v1k1ng1001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: United States of Mexico
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
One thing which makes life miserable for teachers; even worse than bratty kids just wanting to party, is principals with their heads up their azzes. So many principals , its just a scape goat job.So many are there, because they can't teach. And ever notice the revolving door pattern with principals. It is worse than city managers.
When I was down at Texas A&M, I ran into one of my philosophy professors in the hall, a well-known and respected guy. Having just come back from a Dissertation defense in the education department (he was the outside committee member), he was so angry he could barely speak. He said to me:

"This guy, a principal at a school somewhere in San Antonio, earned a Ph.D. today. He can barely write at a high school level himself. You couldn't possibly imagine. I told the education department that I never want to sign off on another one of their Ph.D.s again."
__________________
v1k1ng1001 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 01:15 PM
  #74  
mirage1
Bossy Bunny
 
mirage1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: The Valley of the Sun
Posts: 359

Bikes: A comfy little Diamond Wildwood

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andronicus View Post
I was laughing as I read it ... I think most of us swallowed it for a least a beat or two ...
My favorite thing about that joke is that reactions vary so widely. In any given group you might get an immediate snorting kind of laugh, or a *blink* *blink* *blink* "Wait a minute--Hey!" ...and apparently, that variety spreads all the way to a posting on an internet forum complaining about how teachers these days don't even seem to know how to use dictionaries.
__________________
Margie

"Assume a virtue, if you have it not." ~ William Shakespeare

This advice is the reason I'm masquerading as an athletic person.
mirage1 is offline  
Old 08-26-07, 01:18 PM
  #75  
crtreedude 
Third World Layabout
 
crtreedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,109

Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What is the difference between learning from a computer or being taught by a professor when you have a class of more than 100? Neither is interactive. But, with a computer - you can stop, go back, check references, etc. Many courses now are taught by people with accents so thick you can barely understand them - so the students go back and read the text book to figure out what they said.

Need an examples - you can do it. Need a lab? You can have a virtual one. We have games so real now that you think you are living them - but we can't do anything like this for teaching?

Oh, and I wouldn't have any problem learning anything from a book. I taught myself computers, engineer, hardware design, reforestation, woodworking, philosophy, Spanish, etc from books. You see, once upon a time I learned to read and understand what I read...

What is it, are teachers so uncreative that they can't imagine anyway to teach with computers? Remember, McGraw / Hill / Glencoe had studies that showed it was more effective.
crtreedude is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.