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100 MPG car could spawn the SUV renaissance

Old 07-03-08, 05:07 PM
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100 MPG car could spawn the SUV renaissance

https://www.local6.com/automotive/16768626/detail.html
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Old 07-03-08, 05:24 PM
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I don't mean to be cynical, but I find it hard to believe. After all, thousands of well trained engineers have been toiling for years and haven't produced anything approaching that.

Just sayin.....
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Old 07-03-08, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LastPlace View Post
I don't mean to be cynical, but I find it hard to believe. .
This is the kind of Savvy you only find on BF. I'm sure the rest of America is buying that nonsense hook line and sinker. But you can't fool them on The Road Cycling Forum.
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Old 07-03-08, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LastPlace View Post
I don't mean to be cynical, but I find it hard to believe. After all, thousands of well trained engineers have been toiling for years and haven't produced anything approaching that.
And I suppose you believe that the tabletop cold fusion achievements by Fleischmann and Pons at the University of Utah in the late 80's were a hoax.....
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Old 07-03-08, 06:10 PM
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His claim of 38% efficiency is kind of plausible, coal fired plants can get around 36%, but the claim he could greatly increase that is not so plausible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine ). And to get higher than normal efficiency, he is probably going to have to greatly increase the working temperature, which plays havoc with emissions. He might get 100 mpg, but will it pass emissions inspection?

I have heard that regular gas engines currently get 20% efficiency, he is claiming they only get around 10%, so there is a bit of fishy in his story for me.

Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of 37%. Even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most engines retain an average efficiency of about 20%.[7][8]
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Old 07-03-08, 06:10 PM
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I hope this guy doesn't sell out to Exxon or BP before the idea hits daylight like so many others have. It's no secret that oil companies buy these ideas and shelf them until gasoline gets too expensive, and when they can mass produce the new fuel source.
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Old 07-03-08, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LastPlace View Post
I don't mean to be cynical, but I find it hard to believe. After all, thousands of well trained engineers have been toiling for years and haven't produced anything approaching that.

Just sayin.....
Plenty more out there... There was a story about a high school team that engineered a 2800-mpg car too...

https://gas2.org/2008/03/12/the-world...-not-a-hybrid/

https://gas2.org/2008/02/29/37659-mpg...built-in-1959/
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Old 07-03-08, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
I hope this guy doesn't sell out to Exxon or BP before the idea hits daylight like so many others have. It's no secret that oil companies buy these ideas and shelf them until gasoline gets too expensive, and when they can mass produce the new fuel source.
This is absolute b.s. How do oil companies "buy these ideas?" Patents have a very short term (20 years from the filing date), are public even during their term, and anyone can practice the claimed invention after the patent expires.

I suppose an entrepreneur with the 100mpg engine could approach an oil company and contract not to disclose it to the public and not file a patent application, in exchange for a big fee, but there is no way that an invention that huge would remain secret forever, and if it works then someone else is going to come up with the solution anyway. Plus, there would be plenty of "green" money from environmental organizations to buy the rights to such an invention and make it equally worthwhile to the inventor.

I will take a $500 bet that this guy is full of s- (because he is) and will be exposed (if people even pay attention long enough to remember the audacious claim before it's dis-proven).
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Old 07-03-08, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
I hope this guy doesn't sell out to Exxon or BP before the idea hits daylight like so many others have. It's no secret that oil companies buy these ideas and shelf them until gasoline gets too expensive, and when they can mass produce the new fuel source.
If it's no secret, how come there's so little evidence of it?

Anyway, I don't buy it. First of all, modern engines get way better than 8% efficiency, as he claims. It's more like 20-30%. His 38% efficient isn't going to get him 100 mpg in a Mustang. It would get maybe 40 mpg, unless he also found some way to drastically reduce the losses external to the engine...mainly drag in the bearings and from the wind.

But since he said he's entering it in the X-prize competition, I guess we'll find out after they're engineers have had a chance to examine and test it.
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Old 07-03-08, 07:56 PM
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I call total BS.

The issue is not whether someone can come up with a vehicle that gets 110 MPG, but this is what he claims:

110 MPG
400 HP
500 ft-lb torque
0-60 mph in three seconds
Modified 1987 Mustang (instead of all-new design)

I read several articles and not a single one mentioned that he put the Mustang on a drastic weight-reduction program. Aside from optimizing the efficiency of the engine, the two enemies of fuel economy are: (1) the energy required to accelerate a large mass up to speed, and (2) aerodynamic drag. So here we have this old car with mediocre (at best) aerodynamics, and not drastically lighter (if at all) than the stock Mustang (otherwise we would have heard about it).

If in fact it is true, the leap in efficiency is such that this guy should soon become a billionaire, because with high gas prices, the car company he sells this technology to (after the patents come through) would eventually put most other car companies out of business.

Is he smarter than Gordon Murray?

It's just a publicity stunt.

.
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Old 07-03-08, 08:00 PM
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Back in 1985, a french surgeon told the world that he was able to remove someone's gallbladder through a couple little incisions using a scope and some special instruments. The entire surgical community thought the guy was a quack, that he was endangering his patients, that it couldn't really be done, he was just doing it as a publicity stunt, etc. etc.

Now, in 2008, if you can't remove a gallbladder through a laparoscope you won't be able to find a job as a general surgeon.

Just a thought.
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Old 07-03-08, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Back in 1985, a french surgeon told the world that he was able to remove someone's gallbladder through a couple little incisions using a scope and some special instruments. The entire surgical community thought the guy was a quack, that he was endangering his patients, that it couldn't really be done, he was just doing it as a publicity stunt, etc. etc.

Now, in 2008, if you can't remove a gallbladder through a laparoscope you won't be able to find a job as a general surgeon.

Just a thought.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If he can prove it, like the doctor could and did, well, all well and good. But cursory checks make the claim seem implausible.
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Old 07-03-08, 08:18 PM
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I'm skeptical. Perhaps if the engine was made into a 6 stroke engine where one stroke took the heat in the cylinder and squirted water which instantaneously turned to steam for another compression cycle, that might help a bit.

I personally am of two minds. First until now, the auto industry could get by with just slight engine modifications to get 1-2 more HP a year out of their current engine blocks. So, there may be a lot of room for improvement. However the current type of engine has been around for over a century, and it may be that there isn't much that can be done without a radical redesign, like having the gasoline engine be a generator, and have electric motors at each wheel.
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Old 07-03-08, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr York View Post
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If he can prove it, like the doctor could and did, well, all well and good. But cursory checks make the claim seem implausible.
As cursory checks often do when faced with outside-the-box ideas. Just sayin'.
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Old 07-03-08, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
As cursory checks often do when faced with outside-the-box ideas. Just sayin'.
Ya, I am with you. Just need to see the proof before I get excited. See, if he had a new engine design or material, or something that would lend credence to the notion, it would be easier to suspend disbelief, but it seems all he is claiming is that he reworked a few things and, blammo!, all this hidden efficiency that the car companies have been hiding from us...it smells fishy. So the onus is on him to prove it works and that he can get a lot more efficiency out of it. One thing is for sure, he can't get past the Carnot cycle, so there is a built in limit right there.
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Old 07-03-08, 10:01 PM
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Oh man oh man, I can see no one's putting anything over on you bike weenies.

Crafty, crafty friggin WEENIES.
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Old 07-03-08, 10:14 PM
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0-60 in 3 seconds. 110 mpg.

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Old 07-03-08, 10:22 PM
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It's running on one cylinder, and only goes down steep hills. It will revolutionize the automobile as we know it! We just have to put all places of business at the bottom of hills, and residences at the top. "But wah, how will I get home?", the people whine. Walk, you lazy ****s!
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Old 07-04-08, 02:28 AM
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it mentions a lot of electronics. you can stop 7 out of 8 cylinders in the engine if it's just maintaining speed, kind of like the technology BMW has.

I'd like to see his invention get 110mpg in city.
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Old 07-04-08, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by AEO View Post
it mentions a lot of electronics. you can stop 7 out of 8 cylinders in the engine if it's just maintaining speed, kind of like the technology BMW has.

I'd like to see his invention get 110mpg in city.
You're in luck. I happen to be the exclusive sales agent for this historic piece of NY Real Estate:

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Old 07-04-08, 04:14 AM
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Wait... Didn't I buy that yesterday?
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Old 07-04-08, 05:15 AM
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He is not going to be able to do any kind of cylinder deactivation on that engine block, it would require some way mechanically uncoupling the valve train on the deactivated cylinders. The claims are even more suspicious since he says he is using E85 which has a lower engery content by volume than gasoline. Plus the kind of intake and exhaust flow that would be required to make 400hp, would be horribly inefficient at lower output. But I'm sure he is going to claim >100% Volumetric efficiency throughout the whole power band right?
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Old 07-04-08, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Stacey View Post
Wait... Didn't I buy that yesterday?
Do you have your receipt?
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Old 07-04-08, 05:24 AM
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ooh! maybe he's just being real cheeky about it and saying that it gets 110MPG on gasoline, in which case he's using E85 which is only 15% gasoline. So he can burn 6.6 gallons of total fuel before he burns a full gallon of gasoline. In which gas the car would only have to get about 16.6 MPG
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Old 07-04-08, 10:02 AM
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Okay, this is a report from a local news source, not a peer reviewed journal. Of course it's unbelievable garbage. Sensationalism sells in these instances not real facts, or news stories. When this guys results are tested by an unbiased outsider (not cousins Bob and Ray-Bob), and reported by an actual mechanical engineering outfit, (not a low level reporter), then it may be a story.
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