Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Framebuilders
Reload this Page >

Lab discovers titanium-gold alloy that is four times harder than most steels

Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

Lab discovers titanium-gold alloy that is four times harder than most steels

Old 07-29-16, 01:07 PM
  #1  
Pukeskywalker
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Pukeskywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 389

Bikes: '93 Cannondale T-1000, '03 Cannondale R800

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lab discovers titanium-gold alloy that is four times harder than most steels

Super-narrow tubes coming when??

Lab discovers titanium-gold alloy that is four times harder than most steels
Pukeskywalker is offline  
Old 07-29-16, 01:30 PM
  #2  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,049

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4342 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
It's an interesting find, but don't expect it to make any difference in our world.

It's easy to confuse hardness with strength, but they're very different things. Besides good strength, bicycle steels need good elastic properties (stiffness/flex) and toughness. Toughness is hard to define, but separates high strength structural grades from high hardness grades that might be used on cutting tools.

In fact it's steel's toughness, more than anything that is at the core of the never ending steel vs. carbon fiber debates we see here on BF. CF may be stronger, but steel is far tougher and that has a real value.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 07-29-16, 01:39 PM
  #3  
stanman13
Not racing.
 
stanman13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 170

Bikes: Old rigid mtn bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 4 Posts
Toughness is the ability of a metal to absorb energy without cracking. Tests to determine a materials toughness typically involve putting a small notch in the test piece and hitting it with a hammer (all carefully defined and controlled, of course). Alloy steel, stainless steel, and titanium are all very high toughness materials (generally speaking). Aluminum is maybe medium toughness. Carbon fiber is very low toughness. Hardness is frequently inversely proportional with toughness (obviously not always, but that's the trend).

Sorry to nerd out on you. I'm a welding engineer, 'nuff said.
stanman13 is offline  
Old 08-01-16, 03:25 PM
  #4  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,477
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8512 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 63 Posts
It all depends on the application. There are places where hardness is important. For example cones and races. But, one doesn't necessarily need super light cones either.

Titanium pedal spindles have had a problem with loose bearings, but are effectively being used with sealed bearings.

Maybe titanium cassettes and chainrings? No doubt if it has a gold/titanium lattice like pictured, it will be about 50/50 gold/titanium, and will be extremely expensive. Unlike some alloys that only have a small percent of the alloy agent.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 08-01-16, 08:27 PM
  #5  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 30 Posts
that was an interesting article, because the inventors are not material scientists. So a lot of the discussion about material properties are from a relatively naive viewpoint. I'm pretty sure this is a material that is going to be used in really expensive items, not bicycles. Not sure I'm, convinced there is even a bicycle application.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 08-01-16, 09:49 PM
  #6  
gsa103
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,166

Bikes: Bianchi Infinito (Celeste, of course)

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The key properties for bikes is Ultimate Tensile Strength per kg (UTS/kg). Steel has a higher UTS than either CF or Aluminum, but the others are lighter, so you can use larger tubes which have higher strength.
gsa103 is offline  
Old 08-03-16, 07:28 PM
  #7  
Brian25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 653

Bikes: Road, mountain and track bikes and tandems.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I do not believe it. Gold is known for being soft, maybe not as soft as lead, but soft. So I do not believe you add soft to titanium and get super duper hard. Maybe they meant add diamonds to titanium.
Brian25 is offline  
Old 08-03-16, 07:34 PM
  #8  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,049

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4342 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Brian25 View Post
I do not believe it. Gold is known for being soft, maybe not as soft as lead, but soft. So I do not believe you add soft to titanium and get super duper hard. Maybe they meant add diamonds to titanium.
Much of what happens when you alloy metals is counter-intuitive. Most, if not all alloys of gold are harder than pure gold. This is a common effect, and most alloys are harder than any of the pure metals mixed to form them.

So, I can't speak to the published news item, but there's nothing there to cause skepticism beyond the normal degree one should maintain with any press release.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 08-03-16, 07:37 PM
  #9  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,477
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8512 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 63 Posts
Add carbon to iron, and one gets an alloy that is tough and malleable.
Aluminum is often alloyed with Titanium to make it tougher.

One's alloy doesn't have to truly match either base material.

Most alloys only use a small amount of the alloying agent. This may be unique with a very high concentration of both Titanium and Gold.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 08-03-16, 07:43 PM
  #10  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,049

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4342 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
....

Most alloys only use a small amount of the alloying agent. This may be unique with a very high concentration of both Titanium and Gold.
Just a small quibble. Large percentage mixes of two metals aren't rare. Brass (runs from 1:1 to 2:1 or so) is one notable example.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 08-03-16, 09:27 PM
  #11  
loky1179
Senior Member
 
loky1179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 960

Bikes: 2x Bianchi, 2x Specialized, 3x Schwinns

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I'm pretty sure this is a material that is going to be used in really expensive items, not bicycles. Not sure I'm, convinced there is even a bicycle application.
That is exactly WHY it will be used for bicycles. If it provides a 0.0000001% performance advantage, so much the better. If not - BLING - will be enough to market it.
loky1179 is offline  
Old 08-04-16, 02:03 AM
  #12  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,477
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8512 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
That is exactly WHY it will be used for bicycles. If it provides a 0.0000001% performance advantage, so much the better. If not - BLING - will be enough to market it.
Maybe.
The best place for such a product might be in sprockets. But, it may be heavier than using pure Titanium or Aluminum. And, say it increases the cost over an aluminum cassette by 10x. The top racers might be happy to ride with single-use aluminum parts.

Perhaps one will see it in spindles and bushings. But that would be competing with advanced ceramics.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 08-04-16, 06:22 AM
  #13  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 30 Posts
I think most really expensive bike parts are made from relatively inexpensive materials, and any cost differential is made up with bull****.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 08-04-16, 10:06 AM
  #14  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,928

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6833 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 214 Times in 178 Posts
It will be weaponized first, that was where the Wright Brothers first shopped their Airplane,. the Army.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 08-04-16, 10:12 AM
  #15  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,477
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8512 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
It will be weaponized first, that was where the Wright Brothers first shopped their Airplane,. the Army.
Fortunately cycling derives quite a bit from the aircraft industry.

Chromoly 4130 was probably developed for aircraft, as was Titanium 6Al4V. Or in some cases, aircraft tubing is used to build the bikes.
CliffordK is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
mudboy
Framebuilders
41
02-04-10 10:33 AM
gary fillmore
Bicycle Mechanics
2
05-01-08 09:18 AM
Plainsman
Bicycle Mechanics
12
04-15-08 09:43 AM
Altinos
Classic & Vintage
7
04-10-07 02:31 PM
Jason222
Mountain Biking
6
08-20-06 11:05 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.