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Building your own frames

Old 03-23-17, 09:36 AM
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BigPoser
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Building your own frames

I love bikes. I really love bikes. As I get older I sometimes think about what I'd like to do when I retire. I also love old cars and had thought about building and restoring old cars, modifying them, etc. However, the more I think about what I'd really enjoy doing for retirement is to build bikes. Steel road bikes.

So since I have some time to prepare and learn, what all do I need to build steel bikes? Obviously the materials, a jig, the ability to weld or braze. But what else? I know where to get the materials (I'm still learning about the different tubing types), but which jig is a good one to start with? Something like this?

The Jiggernaut Frame Jig

I also realize I sound like I'm crazy, but I've put a lot of thought into this and it's something that I'm serious about.

Any thoughts, tips, advice to give is really appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Brandon
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Old 03-23-17, 01:09 PM
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OLd Guy , in the middle of the 70's I got my brazing skills up, then got a small frame builder
to sell me the tube set* cut to length and machine mitered ..

then went from there , in the 90s in England I met a traditional frame builder while on a bike tour,

his shop was a collection of half round files., and a bench vise.. in the basement of a 400 year old house.

all was done by careful measurement and, eye. no $350 wooden jigs.

* columbus aelle, a winner for its tolerating less skilled torch wielding..
[ stamped lugs, flexible, angle adjustable ]

...

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-23-17 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 03-23-17, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
OLd Guy , in the middle of the 70's I got my brazing skills up, then got a small frame builder
to sell me the tube set* cut to length and machine mitered ..

then went from there , in the 90s in England I met a traditional frame builder while on a bike tour,

his shop was a collection of half round files., and a bench vise.. in the basement of a 400 year old house.

all was done by careful measurement and, eye. no $350 wooden jigs.

* columbus aelle, a winner for its tolerating less skilled torch wielding..
[ stamped lugs, flexible, angle adjustable ]

...

Now that's awesome! Literally done by hand without the help of a jig is really, really cool.
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Old 03-23-17, 01:57 PM
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How about some apprentice time with a frame builder
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Old 03-23-17, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by xraydog View Post
How about some apprentice time with a frame builder
That certainly was my first choice, but we don't have any that I know of where I live. Hands on is the best way to learn especially from someone who knows what they are doing. I don't have that option sadly.
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Old 03-23-17, 02:40 PM
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Sounds like a lot of fun..... best of luck
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Old 03-23-17, 06:41 PM
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I'm not aware of any working framebuilders that have apprentices -- at least not on an ongoing basis. I know of a couple of people that have been mentored by framebuilders. There are plenty of schools where you can pay to learn. Dave Bohm has a list of them, and also runs a school. Not sure where the link is for the list of schools, but here is his website Bicycle framebuilding school

here's the list https://bohemianbicyclesfaq.wordpress.com/

certainly can't go wrong spending some time in Michigan with Doug

Last edited by unterhausen; 03-24-17 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 03-23-17, 08:56 PM
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Building frames in retirement is a great idea. You can take your time and work when you want to. I’ve been teaching frame building classes for 40 years so have a solid idea on what it takes to be successful. I’ll add that I’ve taught a number of guys nearing retirement that have successfully done what you are thinking of doing. Here is my list of dos and don’ts. 1st you need good instruction. There are more classes being taught now but that are not all created equal. Pick wisely. I’ve had a lot of students that have come to me after taking a class somewhere else because where they went wasn’t good enough. Learning on your own will not be cheaper and is a lot more difficult road to take. No good professional frame builder lets some rookie learn on frames he sells.

2nd, it takes a decent amount of money to get all the equipment to get set up properly. Even the minimum is not cheap. You can trade time for some kinds of tooling but by the time you get a brazing outfit, files, some way to align the frames and something to hold them to your design you will have run up a bill. The jiggernaught is not a place to start. One of the advantages of a class is learning what works so you don’t have to buy things twice.

3rd, not everybody has the natural ability to make frames well just like not everyone can sing on tune or hit a fastball no matter how long they practice. I would estimate this number to be at least a third of those that make an attempt. This is another reason to take a class in case your Bell Curve placing is a little low because the teacher can do the hard parts. Older students on average do better than younger ones because they have had more experience working with their hands.

Last edited by Doug Fattic; 03-23-17 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 03-23-17, 09:56 PM
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BP- These days there is a perception that to be a builder one must have pro tooling and such. Not so, one must understand the techniques of metal fabrication, the sense of rider/bike fit/design and have an ability to problem solve without loosing sight of the goals. After these the tools are only a means to your end.


Some of what you end up with will depend on who you're building for. If your few "customers" (and with possible exception of your spouse or children all others are customer regardless of payment) are family and very close friends than efficiency from power tooling is a wasted effort. There will be no need to "market" your abilities. If you plan to take on actual customers then besides the time savings of expensive tooling the complete business package will be needed. This means insurance, all permits (local, fire, building), state sales tax accounts and the other legal stuff. To do otherwise is failing the responsibility to your customers and your community. The business of building is more about business then the building.


Doug says some sage advice. He is a teacher who can offer a wider education then just the chance to build your own frame (which is what many classes focus on. This being so limiting and not what a budding builder needs to learn). Andy
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Old 03-24-17, 07:17 AM
  #10  
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I can't overstate at Andy just said, especially in light of what Doug has put forth. Tooling up can be expensive. Even going the cheaper route (bbq propane tanks, a medical oxygen concentrator, hoses, mixer, tips, flat surface and V-blocks and/or jig, work stand, alignment tools, files, vise, tube blocks, dummy axles...), the BUSINESS end of frame building can end up being the biggest single expense (which is ongoing). My insurance, even at my low output, is over $1700 annually. And that doesn't go away.

I love doing it, but I'm glad it's not my sole source of income.
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Old 03-24-17, 11:41 AM
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Thank you guys for the words of wisdom. I'm aware that there will be a lot going on behind the scenes of just building the physical products themselves. My shop will have it's final inspection next week and from then on out I can slowly start getting tools and equipment needed. My best friend is an absolutely amazing metal worker and I can learn a ton from him. Granted he's never built a bicycle frame before but I have no doubt that he and I could get a few going to start. The skills portion of this, for me, will be my biggest hurdle IMO. I'm very technically savvy and I'm sure I'll catch on quick. I've built a few cars, and quite a few more bikes. I just feel that my passion is for bikes rather than cars anymore. I also have a few ideas in my head that I'd love to put into physical form. This is going to be fun!
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Old 03-25-17, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BigPoser View Post
Thank you guys for the words of wisdom. I'm aware that there will be a lot going on behind the scenes of just building the physical products themselves. My shop will have it's final inspection next week and from then on out I can slowly start getting tools and equipment needed. My best friend is an absolutely amazing metal worker and I can learn a ton from him. Granted he's never built a bicycle frame before but I have no doubt that he and I could get a few going to start. The skills portion of this, for me, will be my biggest hurdle IMO. I'm very technically savvy and I'm sure I'll catch on quick. I've built a few cars, and quite a few more bikes. I just feel that my passion is for bikes rather than cars anymore. I also have a few ideas in my head that I'd love to put into physical form. This is going to be fun!
Go big poser I'll be looking for updates pic of shop etc
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Old 03-25-17, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Building frames in retirement is a great idea. You can take your time and work when you want to. Iíve been teaching frame building classes for 40 years so have a solid idea on what it takes to be successful. Iíll add that Iíve taught a number of guys nearing retirement that have successfully done what you are thinking of doing. Here is my list of dos and doníts. 1st you need good instruction. There are more classes being taught now but that are not all created equal. Pick wisely. Iíve had a lot of students that have come to me after taking a class somewhere else because where they went wasnít good enough. Learning on your own will not be cheaper and is a lot more difficult road to take. No good professional frame builder lets some rookie learn on frames he sells.

2nd, it takes a decent amount of money to get all the equipment to get set up properly. Even the minimum is not cheap. You can trade time for some kinds of tooling but by the time you get a brazing outfit, files, some way to align the frames and something to hold them to your design you will have run up a bill. The jiggernaught is not a place to start. One of the advantages of a class is learning what works so you donít have to buy things twice.

3rd, not everybody has the natural ability to make frames well just like not everyone can sing on tune or hit a fastball no matter how long they practice. I would estimate this number to be at least a third of those that make an attempt. This is another reason to take a class in case your Bell Curve placing is a little low because the teacher can do the hard parts. Older students on average do better than younger ones because they have had more experience working with their hands.
Doug,
I've had similar thoughts to the OP...though I've got a good 25 years before I'm seriously thinking about retirement. This would be more of an occasional hobby in my garage. Where is your class, and any info on it you could share? I'm in Chicago so getting to Michigan wouldn't be the end of the world for me.
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Old 03-25-17, 05:06 PM
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Iím in Niles, Michigan just north of South Bend, Indiana and Notre Dame University. Downtown Chicago is about 90 miles away. I am just off of the Indiana toll road. Iíve had a lot of students from the Chicago area. I donít have a website which means I tend to get students that do the most online research looking for frame building classes. There are advantages from learning from an experienced real teacher. Email me and I can send you a ton of info. My address is my name in lower case at qtm.net.

Setting yourself up well in advance of retirement has big advantages. This can give you time look for great deals on used equipment. This not only reduces your overall costs but spreads them out over a long period. And just setting up a workshop area can take some time to plan and execute. Even if you already have one, you might want to make adjustments for building frames.

Another advantage of starting early is to be able to practice frame building skills at your leisure. A frame building class helps you organize so you will know what to do and what to get. I am also an expert on how to design and carve lugs that is an interest for some and a frame building related project that doesnít require much tooling to accomplish.
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Old 03-25-17, 07:01 PM
  #15  
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Inspiration

You'll like this great frame build thread from 2008. All the details and lots of photos.

His finished bike:

Last edited by rm -rf; 03-25-17 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 03-29-17, 10:52 AM
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I wouldn't start tooling up until you take a class and find out that you actually enjoy doing the work. You'll walk away from the class with new skills, a better understanding of frame building, and most likely a frame set you built yourself.

I took Doug's class in 2007 and Dave Bohm's class as a refresher in 2014. Both offer a low student-to-teacher ratio and both did a great job teaching me the essentials. The cost is well worth it.
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Old 03-29-17, 11:21 AM
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UBI in Ashland Oregon is another Framebuilding Class Site. www.bikeschool.com
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Old 03-31-17, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by niknak View Post
I wouldn't start tooling up until you take a class and find out that you actually enjoy doing the work. You'll walk away from the class with new skills, a better understanding of frame building, and most likely a frame set you built yourself.

I took Doug's class in 2007 and Dave Bohm's class as a refresher in 2014. Both offer a low student-to-teacher ratio and both did a great job teaching me the essentials. The cost is well worth it.
Agreed. Not sure if I'd be able to get away for several weeks any time soon, but that is certainly the way to do it.
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Old 04-24-17, 03:01 PM
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I have always been somewhat adverse to fancy (and expensive) frame jigs. I tend to favor a flat table jig. It seems to get the job done, is easy to eyeball right from wrong and is low fuss. Suggest a starter could pick up a piece of stone countertop material (marble, silicate, etc., but leaning toward white or tan silicate as one can draw designs on it with a fine point sharpie). They are typically very flat, about 3cm thick, and are often advertised for $25 or so per square foot (single bike would need about 4 sq.ft. piece minimum). With a decent set of Forstner bits and a drill press, offset spacers can be easily and cheaply made to hold all the tubes just so for fitting checks, initial tacking, etc. FWIW.
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Old 04-24-17, 03:10 PM
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I'm a big believer in the idea of practice vs projects. People want to do the whole thing and nobody wants to do the practice. But when it comes to learning skills you get a lot more concentrated practice and a lot less pressure over whether the project will be everything you want, or ruined, by doing some practice. Courses are the flip side, you can do those start to finish because you have someone holding your hand.

The practice approach is also a good way to control an expert friend. If he doesn't know frame building he can be as much a hindrance as a help. But if he is for real, he should know safety around an AO torch (sneaky devils those things), or how to do a simple brazing, etc...

Courses are a mixed blessing in my mind. No question they are huge on speeding up the learning curve. And Doug has all kinds of options on things like process and tooling that would really help you get started. The downside, other than cost, is that if you can't figure stuff out for yourself, that is a potential problem. I have been on a variety of courses, and they don't come to your shop, and show you how your welder works. Just setting the dang thing up can be an issue. How do you buy machinery, get it to your shop, and off the truck and down the stairs, and wired. Of course you don't need machinery. But at some point you are going to have to do something for yourself. If you are that un-mechanical you can't even consider that, it could be a tough ride. So if you have time till you retire, and the aptitude for this kind of work, start taking some practice steps now. I saw this guy's blog where he welded 100 of the same tube joints before he attempted a real frame. So simple. He went from hack to clean in those practice tubes.

Another thing to look into is to really look into every step that is involved in the process. If there is one you really know you are going to suck at, or hate, wow, that is a problem. So say you hate finish prep and finishing. Well there are bike painters out there but how much will it cost to get stuff to them and back. Plus any errors or damages. Can you build that into the price you figure you can ask.
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Old 04-30-17, 08:42 PM
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Massive One; 200% agree with your thoughts on practice vs projects. I am a firm believer of the beginner getting some scrap bits of tubing (one of the companies in the sources list sells bags of tubing ends and short bits) and doing practice joints which then get put in a vice and beat on and twisted to see if the welds or brazing fails. It is amazing how much can be learned doing this and it sure beats having a beautiful-appearing bike break on you 10 miles from home.
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Old 04-30-17, 10:03 PM
  #22  
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Some good points in these last few posts.


Jigs don't make our frame straight or geometric correct, they lessen time and can indicate errors in pre fit up work. Having a consistent reference surface goes a long way to understanding alignment and being able to achieve it. But when one can easily afford a jig I do suggest considering it.


A lot of pro builders have spent many hours practicing. Dozens of hours and burned through hundreds of dollars of filler, gas and tube. Muscle memory is the goal. Seeing the range of cause and effect is needed to reduce the bad results when you're finally getting paid.


I build only during the off riding season. As such each Fall I feel like a newbie with the torch. I will have a few non essential projects or practice sessions before I start a frame.


Good interactive instruction does answer many questions and reduces the time and expense of learning. While I think a passing exposure to brazing is good before you take a class, I have come to the agreement with Doug F that unlearning bad technique takes more time then getting it right initially. Classes also tend to focus the effort with a time limited burden. This is a good filter for many, those who dwell and only think might reconsider their passion.


Well back to tour planning and this falls bench time. Andy
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Old 05-01-17, 06:01 AM
  #23  
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Though I have not gotten into frame building,yet. The idea of practicing on waste is right on. I am a woodworker and when I am faced with a new joint or project you can bet I practice away on line before I pick up the expensive material!
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